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RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/10/2010 11:41:41 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Because once it’s 'closed' they will find another phony issue to whine about. And to say the announcement proves nothing is absurd. Like his mother would know about 50 years ago to put it in the paper because he was running for president.

It doesn’t matter what additional evidence is provided some people will never accept Obama. There is more than enough proof out there now and this is all because he is black.

Firm

quote:

And, you know, really, the biggest thing that wiggles around in all that empty space in my head is: If it's no big damn deal, and Obama is well aware of all the stuff swirling around about his BC ... why not just allow the Hawaiian "Burea of Vital Statistics" or whatever it is, to just release a copy to the public?

Case closed, Theorists discredited, done.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 12:01:17 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Nor did it seem to matter that the REPUBLICAN governor of Hawaii had the state's attorney general examine the original, verify its authenticity AND agreed that President Obama had indeed been born in the state of Hawaii.

Oh, and the birth announcement published in the local newspaper means nothing as well.



Well, I'm not a "birther", I'm fairly confident that Obama is a citizen.  But ....

the REPUBLICAN governor of Hawaii had the state's attorney general examine the original,

So now you trust a politician, and a bureaucrat?  What do you know about either of them? 

The birth announcement in the paper occurred, I've no doubt.  Proves nothing.

And, you know, really, the biggest thing that wiggles around in all that empty space in my head is:  If it's no big damn deal, and Obama is well aware of all the stuff swirling around about his BC ... why not just allow the Hawaiian "Burea of Vital Statistics" or whatever it is, to just release a copy to the public?

Case closed, Theorists discredited, done.

Unless, of course, he has a vested interest in being to able to use the issue to paint any of his opponents as "birthers' and thereby having a method to help discredit the political opposition to him ...

Interesting speculation.

Firm



vital statistics will give a BC to a hamster.

The ONLY way to know where he was born is the doctors witnessed affidavit right out of the hospital.

no other way all else is bullshit and the only thing this little drama shows is aside from political drama is how completely fucking disgustingly ignorant the morons are in this country who would believe the shit they do or entrench because they voted for him.

unfuckingbuleibabole


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 12:18:17 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Because once it’s 'closed' they will find another phony issue to whine about.

[Sarcasm]
So, just let misinformation fester in the citizenry that you are suppose to represent and lead, huh?

That's so ... enlightened ... of him, isn't it?

Should we call him "The Great Educator", or what?!
[/Sarcasm]


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

And to say the announcement proves nothing is absurd. Like his mother would know about 50 years ago to put it in the paper because he was running for president.

You don't know how that kind of paper announcements work, do ya, Brian?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It doesn’t matter what additional evidence is provided some people will never accept Obama. There is more than enough proof out there now and this is all because he is black.

Race card.

Again.

Second thought ...

Just like so many people on the left "accepted" Bush, huh?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Firm

Huh?

Do I have access to your account, or do you just want to be me?

Firm




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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 12:34:11 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

So, just let misinformation fester in the citizenry that you are suppose to represent and lead, huh?

That's so ... enlightened ... of him, isn't it?

Should we call him "The Great Educator", or what?!


Responding to the birther movement would give it respectability that it does not deserve, as well as set a bad precedent that Obama will play with crackpots on their own terms.

The President's job is not to educate the people. That's the people's job, and a lot of them are failing at it big time.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 12:37:39 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

The ONLY way to know where he was born is the doctors witnessed affidavit right out of the hospital.

no other way all else is bullshit and the only thing this little drama shows is aside from political drama is how completely fucking disgustingly ignorant the morons are in this country who would believe the shit they do or entrench because they voted for him.


And now, for the other side of the issue .....

Who frigggin cares?  What real purpose does it serve?

If he spent his first 20 years raised in another nation, antithetical to the US culture, then it might make a difference.  But if he had, he would never have become President.

What if he were actually born in a non-US island in the Pacific, and was flown onto a Hawaiian island the next day? 

I'm all for the "native born American" clause of the Constitution, but "native born" is defined by Congress, and has changed over the years.  It's entirely possible that the circumstances of his birth, and the laws at the time, might make him not to have been a "native born American" on the day and location of his birth, but would have fully qualified him as a "native born American" the next day.

Is he not an American citizen?  Is he not the legally elected President of the United States? What positive purpose would it serve to attempt to unseat him on the basis of such a changeable law?

He was elected.  It would cause such damage to our nation to attempt to unseat him for no substantial reason and engender a Constitutional crisis, that I find it incredible that people even talk about that.

OH, you don't believe in the Constitution!

Sure I do.  Please refer back to my comments about who defines "native born".  If a bureaucratic/legal snafu could cause an American to one day be "native born" and the next day "not native born" - but with his citizenship never in question - then I think, at this point, the people who claim "the Constitution!" are guilty of self-serving ritualism, not thinking.

Firm

PS.  I didn't vote for Obama.

now ... returning you back to the regular Firm ...


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 12:57:25 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Responding to the birther movement would give it respectability that it does not deserve, as well as set a bad precedent that Obama will play with crackpots on their own terms.


You must have missed the big sarcasm tags I put on the words you quoted.

Respond?  All he had to do a year ago, was simply authorize Hawaii to release it.  Didn't have to say a word.  Ignore it at that time, and it goes away.

But he didn't do that, and it's festered. And it appears that his political allies are taking advantage of it.

He could still make great hay over it, and not give the "birthers" a shred of creditability.

On one of his trips to late night TV, have the host make a joke about it.  Milk it a little, and then offer to allow (Jay Leno?) to organize an "expedition" to Hawaii to retrieve it ("only for you, Jay!").  Build the suspense for a week, having daily updates. Send Conan OBrien with a squad of armed guards.  Have them stop and give press conferences one the way there, once there, and on the way back.

Have the White House give a daily "Birth Certificate" update.  It would make all the news shows, and comedy shows.  Have Conan get stranded somewhere for a day (with lots of pretty girls and booze).  Start a "Bring Conan Back Fund - and the birth certificate, too!".

A week later have Leno and a couple of respected document inspectors come on, and open the sealed and certified document.  Drum rolllllllllllllllllllllllllll ..... "He's still President!".

End of discussion.  Lots of positive publicity.  "Birthers" afraid to admit they ever were.  A good time was had by all.

But no.  Let it fester in the body politic.

That's not statesman-like, in my mind.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The President's job is not to educate the people. That's the people's job, and a lot of them are failing at it big time.

Ever heard of the "Bully Pulpit"?

"Educating" is the primary responsibility of the President.

It's how he can lead effectively.

Americans do not like being pushed.  Or ignored.

Firm


< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 5/11/2010 1:00:09 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 1:06:08 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

End of discussion.  Lots of positive publicity.  "Birthers" afraid to admit they ever were.  A good time was had by all.

But no.  Let it fester in the body politic.

That's not statesman-like, in my mind.


I will question a lot of the decisions Obama makes, but I also give the man credit where it's due. He knows how to play politics. He is an artful manipulator and I use that as a compliment.

He disengaged. People kept talking. Making fools of themselves, to non-birthers. Obama doesn't have to discredit his opposition. They're doing it for him. You're right that 'birthers' would have been afraid to admit they ever were, if he had released the birth certificate...but what good does that do Obama? They'll find something else to hate him for, and maybe that something else would hold a lot more merit than the 'birther' movement.

I wouldn't be surprised if he shows his birth certificate in 2012. Not to prove he's a citizen, but to prove his opponents are idiots.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The President's job is not to educate the people. That's the people's job, and a lot of them are failing at it big time.

Ever heard of the "Bully Pulpit"?

"Educating" is the primary responsibility of the President.

It's how he can lead effectively.

Americans do not like being pushed. 

Firm



If the President needs to use his office to explain to the people that a certified birth certificate is official, IMO he embarrasses the country. But I'm sensitive about that sort of thing, I expect my President to act like he's the leader of a great nation, not the nanny of a developmentally stunted populace.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 5/11/2010 1:07:02 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 1:20:59 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

The ONLY way to know where he was born is the doctors witnessed affidavit right out of the hospital.

no other way all else is bullshit and the only thing this little drama shows is aside from political drama is how completely fucking disgustingly ignorant the morons are in this country who would believe the shit they do or entrench because they voted for him.


And now, for the other side of the issue .....

Who frigggin cares?  What real purpose does it serve?

If he spent his first 20 years raised in another nation, antithetical to the US culture, then it might make a difference.  But if he had, he would never have become President.

What if he were actually born in a non-US island in the Pacific, and was flown onto a Hawaiian island the next day? 

I'm all for the "native born American" clause of the Constitution, but "native born" is defined by Congress, and has changed over the years.  It's entirely possible that the circumstances of his birth, and the laws at the time, might make him not to have been a "native born American" on the day and location of his birth, but would have fully qualified him as a "native born American" the next day.

Is he not an American citizen?  Is he not the legally elected President of the United States? What positive purpose would it serve to attempt to unseat him on the basis of such a changeable law?

He was elected.  It would cause such damage to our nation to attempt to unseat him for no substantial reason and engender a Constitutional crisis, that I find it incredible that people even talk about that.

OH, you don't believe in the Constitution!

Sure I do.  Please refer back to my comments about who defines "native born".  If a bureaucratic/legal snafu could cause an American to one day be "native born" and the next day "not native born" - but with his citizenship never in question - then I think, at this point, the people who claim "the Constitution!" are guilty of self-serving ritualism, not thinking.

Firm

PS.  I didn't vote for Obama.

now ... returning you back to the regular Firm ...




its a violation of the fundamental law of the country.

See when you synthesize a justification for lawlessness then why have any?  Regardless of your personal opinions about the law it is nonetheless the law and you are absolving wrong doing and lawlessness.

Conscientiously its your duty to uphold the law.  Not flush it down the shitter because of some rationalization.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 1:21:43 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Definitely not a good career move on this officers part.

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(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 1:36:47 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		It doesn't make sense to me why anyone gives a damn.

Personally, I don't doubt that he was born in Hawaii. But what if he wasn't? He spent the formative years of his life being an American. So far, he hasn't shown himself to be anything but a pragmatic president. I'm as Libertarian as they come (I prefer 'Jeffersonian Democrat'), and he's not; yet I tend to see what he's done so far as some hard compromises between folk with my own mindset and all the other interest groups of the nation. In other words, a good job. And I absolutely love what he's done to increase transparency of government data and decision making. I didn't vote for him last time, but I might next time around.


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 5:07:04 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

I believe that this whole thing is political smoke and mirrors.  I also believe that this Lt. Col. is being used.  In this case he is "Roe," as you have to have a personal standing in a court case. 

This I don't get.

Firm



Let me take a stab at interpreting.

There are a bunch of birthers, and they want to push their "case" to court.  In order to do so, they need to have someone who is materially affected by Obama's citizenship to sue.  So Lakin is their case - he claims to be affected because Obama's perceived lack of citizenship nullifies his authority.

Her reference to "Roe" alludes to the landmark Roe vs Wade case, in which Roe was the woman whose case set precedent.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 5:28:44 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So, just let misinformation fester in the citizenry that you are suppose to represent and lead, huh?


There is no misinformation.

There is ample evidence he was born here.

This is just the usual Republican nonsense to create a distraction from legitimate issues.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 7:09:27 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

its a violation of the fundamental law of the country.

See when you synthesize a justification for lawlessness then why have any?  Regardless of your personal opinions about the law it is nonetheless the law and you are absolving wrong doing and lawlessness.

Conscientiously its your duty to uphold the law.  Not flush it down the shitter because of some rationalization.



its a violation of the fundamental law of the country.

No it's not.  I covered that in my post to you above.  Twice, as I recall.

Therefore the rest of your post does not logically follow.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 7:12:05 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

Why does it not surprise me to discover this man is white?


Good question. Why doesn't it surprise you? Do you expect anyone who opposes Obama to be racist? Personally I hadn't thought about his race until you mentioned it.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 7:13:55 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I've got two words for that stupid bastard - Leavenworth.

Oh. Wait. That's one word.

Ah, well. The point stands.



That may only be one word, but in this guys case, it's a good word. Maybe a few years in there will give him time to think about what it meant when he took the oath to serve.


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 7:23:19 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

It doesn’t matter what additional evidence is provided some people will never accept Obama. There is more than enough proof out there now and this is all because he is black.


You keep saying it's because he is black, but you haven't explained why you care if the US has a black president. I realize your family is here, but it won't rub off on them. I promise.


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 7:26:59 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

He was elected. It would cause such damage to our nation to attempt to unseat him for no substantial reason and engender a Constitutional crisis, that I find it incredible that people even talk about that.


Yea, I was trying to explain that to my dad the other day. Not sure if he finally agreed or just wanted to shut me up so I would go fix dinner.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 8:54:20 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

I believe that this whole thing is political smoke and mirrors.  I also believe that this Lt. Col. is being used.  In this case he is "Roe," as you have to have a personal standing in a court case. 

This I don't get.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

I hope that made sense. 


All except the last bit.  But I'm tired and going to bed, so I'll let it go for a couple of days.  I'm interested in what you may think.

Thanks Aylee.

Firm



In Roe v Wade, they had to find a pregnant woman that wanted an abortion to bring the case to the Supreme Court.  "Roe" was the pseudonym of the lady that was pregnant that brought suit in the abortion case. 

In this case, they need an officer that is refusing orders because he claims they are illegal.  So, I see him as the "Roe," in this case.

Does that help at all?


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 8:58:07 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

I believe that this whole thing is political smoke and mirrors.  I also believe that this Lt. Col. is being used.  In this case he is "Roe," as you have to have a personal standing in a court case. 

This I don't get.

Firm



Let me take a stab at interpreting.

There are a bunch of birthers, and they want to push their "case" to court.  In order to do so, they need to have someone who is materially affected by Obama's citizenship to sue.  So Lakin is their case - he claims to be affected because Obama's perceived lack of citizenship nullifies his authority.

Her reference to "Roe" alludes to the landmark Roe vs Wade case, in which Roe was the woman whose case set precedent.



Thank you Steven.  I wish that I had seen this before I went ahead and answered as well.


_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Army to court martial 'birther' officer - 5/11/2010 8:58:32 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:


The ONLY way to know where he was born is the doctors witnessed affidavit right out of the hospital.

no other way all else is bullshit and the only thing this little drama shows is aside from political drama is how completely fucking disgustingly ignorant the morons are in this country who would believe the shit they do or entrench because they voted for him.

unfuckingbuleibabole


That isnt the only other way. How little you know about birth records.


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Profile   Post #: 60
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