RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal

RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (Full Version)

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Sanity -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 11:14:59 AM)
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rulemylife -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 11:22:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife No there isn't, but how this law is structured isn't ok either. At least they are doing "something." For far too long our border has been leaking more than the pipeline in the gulf. If we have to switch to a tactic like this to get some actual progress started, I'm fine with that. Remember, illegal isn't a race. It's just illegal. Remember, surrendering your rights in the name of security hasn't worked too well so far. Think Patriot Act.

rulemylife -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 11:41:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied How can you even begin to think that the AZ law is a non-issue? Perhaps you are blond and blue eyed and do not look illegal. There is nothing okay with legalizing racial profiling. It's a non issue because all Arizona has proposed is to uphold existing Federal law. Laws that are already on the books, that the Feds find easier to ignore. All we have are illegals, and illegal supporters crying racial profiling, but no real racial profiling going on. Unless you have the evidence that cops in Arizona have profiled at all? Like I said, it's a non issue. See, this is the problem with our information age, it has become a misinformation age. You have people like Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh spewing out things that are not true and many people, too busy with their daily lives, accept what they say as fact. I've posted the differences on other threads about this, but let me ask you a simple question. If this law is just a "mirror" of federal law, as Rove and others claim, then why should there be any controversy?

pahunkboy -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 11:46:32 AM)
PA has proposed a sim law. 12 states have.

rulemylife -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 12:22:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy PA has proposed a sim law. 12 states have. Which is where the problem lies. Knee-jerk reactions to a problem instead of a well-thought plan. My guess is none of these will survive legal challenges. I would say I was sure but after the Supreme Court decided sobriety checkpoints were more valuable than our Fourth Amendment rights I guess anything is possible.

popeye1250 -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 12:42:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied How can you even begin to think that the AZ law is a non-issue? Perhaps you are blond and blue eyed and do not look illegal. There is nothing okay with legalizing racial profiling. Katy, and which "race" would be profiled? If you're hunting for I.R.A. members you'd be looking for white guys with names like "Sean, Kevin and Liam" not black guys named "Rasheed, Buster or Louis." And if you're hunting for illegal aliens along that Mexican border you probably wouldn't be looking for Chezks or Finns. That border needs to be closed. Things won't get better with time until it is. There is a growing anger out here by the Voters about this issue. President Obama had better put Troops on that border and soon! The November mid-term elections are looming closer on the horizon.

Loki45 -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 2:28:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Remember, surrendering your rights in the name of security hasn't worked too well so far. Think Patriot Act. Big difference. There's no surrendering of rights with this law, despite what the whiny-ass protesters are saying.

Sanity -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 3:38:47 PM)
There is no racial profiling under this law, Arizona law specifically prohibits racial profiling. All this law says it that everyone who gets pulled over or arrested or otherwise investigated, regardless of whether they're black, white, red, yellow or brown, has their immigration status looked at while they're being checked for wants & warrants. Everyone.

rulemylife -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 3:41:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity There is no racial profiling under this law, Arizona law specifically prohibits racial profiling. All this law says it that everyone who gets pulled over or arrested or otherwise investigated, regardless of whether they're black, white, red, yellow or brown, has their immigration status looked at while they're being checked for wants & warrants. Everyone. Prove it. I've posted that is exactly the opposite of what you have just said by citing the law. Show me where I am wrong.

rulemylife -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 3:45:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Remember, surrendering your rights in the name of security hasn't worked too well so far. Think Patriot Act. Big difference. There's no surrendering of rights with this law, despite what the whiny-ass protesters are saying. Yes there is. Reasonable suspicion is vastly expanded to not only allow but require the police to target those they suspect of being illegal. So put your money where your mouth is and let's see where you can back what you say by citing the relevant portions of federal law and Arizona's new law.

domiguy -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 3:45:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Thats a cheap shot, I used to think you were somewhere above domi's trollish inanity. The reason the boycotts will hurt the immigrants in Arizona more is that they will be among the first laid off if the boycotts have any effect, and they are of a lower income level as a group to begin with. quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied He is just following the line of thinking shared by the Governor of AZ Thats not necessarily true...They are in fact doing much of the work that no one else is willing to do for that level of pay.

domiguy -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 3:50:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied How can you even begin to think that the AZ law is a non-issue? Perhaps you are blond and blue eyed and do not look illegal. There is nothing okay with legalizing racial profiling. Katy, and which "race" would be profiled? If you're hunting for I.R.A. members you'd be looking for white guys with names like "Sean, Kevin and Liam" not black guys named "Rasheed, Buster or Louis." And if you're hunting for illegal aliens along that Mexican border you probably wouldn't be looking for Chezks or Finns. That border needs to be closed. Things won't get better with time until it is. There is a growing anger out here by the Voters about this issue. President Obama had better put Troops on that border and soon! The November mid-term elections are looming closer on the horizon. The economy is going to bounce back and this will once again become a non-issue. we were told to be very "ascared" because our loose borders would allow terrorists to easily attack us. Our borders are sieves, where are all of the explosions? Tings have not "gotten bad" because of illegals and thing are going to "get better" whether we deal with the problem or not. Your fears are just that...."your fears." Do we need to curb illegal immigration?...Yes. Should we act like pussies over this issue?...No.

rulemylife -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 4:02:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity There is no racial profiling under this law, Arizona law specifically prohibits racial profiling. All this law says it that everyone who gets pulled over or arrested or otherwise investigated, regardless of whether they're black, white, red, yellow or brown, has their immigration status looked at while they're being checked for wants & warrants. Everyone. What Arizona's law does is use creative wording to give the appearance of prohibiting racial profiling while in essence requiring it.

luckydawg -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 4:04:35 PM)
RMl, you could save a lot of time(and maybe win the argument) by actually posting your proof, instead of repeating over and over that you have prooved it in a different thread. I am sure you are not intending to come accross like realone, pretending that you prooved somethign while refusing to actually provide your proof. And what exactly is your problem with Obama and the Democrats Patriot Act???

Elisabella -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 4:48:00 PM)
quote: If you're hunting for I.R.A. members you'd be looking for white guys with names like "Sean, Kevin and Liam" not black guys named "Rasheed, Buster or Louis." And if you're hunting for illegal aliens along that Mexican border you probably wouldn't be looking for Chezks or Finns. Exactly. All rhetoric aside, this is an Arizona law designed to deal with the specific problem of illegal Mexican immigrants. Saying it's unfair to single out Mexicans when looking for illegal Mexican immigrants is like saying it's unfair to single out men when you're looking for a serial rapist. Immigration isn't just a question of "legal" or "illegal" - someone with Mexican heritage could have been born in the US, they could have legally immigrated and become a citizen, they could be a legal permanent resident, they could be a migrant worker, or they could be an illegal alien. Obviously it would be pretty hard to mistake a native born US citizen for an illegal immigrant, I'm sure it's possible but most cops aren't complete idiots. If they ask Maria Lopez for her ID and she says "dude that's retarded" instead of "si senor" they'll only harass her if they're dicks about it. The biggest issue I see with this law is the question of how to determine immigration status. There needs to be an efficient, centralized database that police can access from their vehicles, the same way they can run a drivers licence. Obviously the problem with that is that this is a state law, and people don't immigrate to Arizona, they immigrate to the US...it's a federal department. And in that sense, I think it would be completely unjustified to detain a suspected illegal immigrant for a week until someone in DC gets back to you and confirms that he's a legal migrant worker. I'm guessing this is why we have so many laws on the books - they sound great, but in practice they're expensive, time consuming, and ineffective. If anything we should be boycotting Arizona for their lack of efficiency. Or just give it to Mexico - it seems a lot of people are already treating it as a foreign power, boycotting a state? Seriously? Economic sanctions on OUR OWN COUNTRY?? Yeah I know it's not the government boycotting it but really I can't imagine the mental process that says "My country did something I disagree with, I'm going to work to economically cripple my country until it changes it. Because I love my country."

KatyLied -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 4:59:21 PM)
quote: Obviously it would be pretty hard to mistake a native born US citizen for an illegal immigrant, I'm sure it's possible but most cops aren't complete idiots. If they ask Maria Lopez for her ID and she says "dude that's retarded" instead of "si senor" they'll only harass her if they're dicks about it. Are you aware that there are many of Latino heritage that are citizens, here legally, yet look "illegal" for the purposes of this specific racial profiling? Are you comfortable tramping over their rights to go about the business of their lives and move about freely? Are you aware that they speak Spanish and English?

rulemylife -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 5:01:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg RMl, you could save a lot of time(and maybe win the argument) by actually posting your proof, instead of repeating over and over that you have prooved it in a different thread. I am sure you are not intending to come accross like realone, pretending that you prooved somethign while refusing to actually provide your proof. And what exactly is your problem with Obama and the Democrats Patriot Act??? Because I think this is the fifth or sixth thread on the same topic and it becomes really tiresome to keep posting the same thing to people who do not bother to read it. I've posted the Arizona law. I've posted why I think it is unconstitutional. And note I said "think". It sort of becomes like banging your head against the wall when you offer reasons for your position and get the same stock responses that someone heard earlier in the day on Fox or Limbaugh. So I thought it might be more effective to turn the tables and issue a challenge to prove me incorrect.

luckydawg -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 5:07:05 PM)
Yet copying and pasting the actuall proof, would have taken less time than what you wrote. I don't recall seeing "proof". I haven't given you a response on this issue at all. I haven't made up my mind on it. If by effective, you mean using realone/thompsonx tactics........ you will get people to walk away from the debate. But do they really win?

DomYngBlk -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 5:15:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: If you're hunting for I.R.A. members you'd be looking for white guys with names like "Sean, Kevin and Liam" not black guys named "Rasheed, Buster or Louis." And if you're hunting for illegal aliens along that Mexican border you probably wouldn't be looking for Chezks or Finns. Exactly. All rhetoric aside, this is an Arizona law designed to deal with the specific problem of illegal Mexican immigrants. Saying it's unfair to single out Mexicans when looking for illegal Mexican immigrants is like saying it's unfair to single out men when you're looking for a serial rapist. Immigration isn't just a question of "legal" or "illegal" - someone with Mexican heritage could have been born in the US, they could have legally immigrated and become a citizen, they could be a legal permanent resident, they could be a migrant worker, or they could be an illegal alien. Obviously it would be pretty hard to mistake a native born US citizen for an illegal immigrant, I'm sure it's possible but most cops aren't complete idiots. If they ask Maria Lopez for her ID and she says "dude that's retarded" instead of "si senor" they'll only harass her if they're dicks about it. The biggest issue I see with this law is the question of how to determine immigration status. There needs to be an efficient, centralized database that police can access from their vehicles, the same way they can run a drivers licence. Obviously the problem with that is that this is a state law, and people don't immigrate to Arizona, they immigrate to the US...it's a federal department. And in that sense, I think it would be completely unjustified to detain a suspected illegal immigrant for a week until someone in DC gets back to you and confirms that he's a legal migrant worker. I'm guessing this is why we have so many laws on the books - they sound great, but in practice they're expensive, time consuming, and ineffective. If anything we should be boycotting Arizona for their lack of efficiency. Or just give it to Mexico - it seems a lot of people are already treating it as a foreign power, boycotting a state? Seriously? Economic sanctions on OUR OWN COUNTRY?? Yeah I know it's not the government boycotting it but really I can't imagine the mental process that says "My country did something I disagree with, I'm going to work to economically cripple my country until it changes it. Because I love my country." Well lets suppose that we take Popeyes example. We are actually getting serious about terrorism of any sort and we are targeting IRA members who are here illegally. Fair enough right? So the cops probably should stop any white person that they might fit the profile and demand documentation on the spot. This would happen no matter if it were speeding ticket or if you happened to be walking errantly in the park. Now the real question would this be ok with you? Would you feel fine with having to produce your documentation(drivers liscence not being enough) of your legal status to be here. This would also mean that you'd have to keep on your body this documentation day and night no matter the situation just in case you were stopped. Sounds to me like Nazi Germany but hey, at least it will keep all the old people in Phoenix happy.

Elisabella -> RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal (5/16/2010 5:22:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied Are you aware that there are many of Latino heritage that are citizens, here legally, yet look "illegal" for the purposes of this specific racial profiling? Are you comfortable tramping over their rights to go about the business of their lives and move about freely? Are you aware that they speak Spanish and English? I'm well aware of that, in fact I think I mentioned it in the post you replied to [;)] I don't think this law gives cops the right to randomly stop people on the street. Apologies for massive wall of capslocked text: quote: B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF 23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO 24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE 25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, 26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY 27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED 28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE 29 VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 30 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, 31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY 32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF 33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR 34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS 35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW 36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING: 37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE. 38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE. 39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL 40 IDENTIFICATION. 41 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES 42 BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT 43 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION. The main issue I have with that last part is it doesn't include a Mexican passport with a valid visa on the list of valid ID forms, again drawing the sharp distinction between "US Citizen" and "illegal immigrant." But the parts I bolded make it sound as though the law says if a police officer stops, detains, or arrests someone legally, they can hold them until their immigration status is verified. Which is different from arresting someone to check their immigration status.

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