quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Yet copying and pasting the actuall proof, would have taken less time than what you wrote.


I don't recall seeing "proof". I haven't given you a response on this issue at all. I haven't made up my mind on it.


If by effective, you mean using realone/thompsonx tactics........ you will get people to walk away from the debate. But do they really win?

quote:



ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It is not a carbon copy of any federal law.  If there was a federal law why would there be a need for a state law?  And why would all this controversy exist?

What the Arizona law does try to do is use wording based on several Supreme Court decisions to avoid being held as unconstitutional, but it clearly fails.

In the Hibbel decision the Court broadened police powers and supported the constitutionality of the stop-and-identify laws that a number of states have.  The Arizona law fails in two respects.

In Hiibel the Court partially reversed its earlier ruling in Brown v Texas, but held to the principle that police may not detain a person for refusing to identify himself unless there is a reasonable suspicion that the person is involved in criminal activity. 

The Arizona statute tries to stretch this by including reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally, which is far too vague to be upheld constitutionally.  How would a police officer legitimately determine that?

The second reason it fails is the ID requirement.  You are not even required to give your name to the police unless they are detaining you under reasonable suspicion.  Even then you are not required to show any forms of ID, only to answer questions regarding your identity.

Hiibel Decision: Know Your Rights

There must be at least "reasonable suspicion" for the stop itself as established under Terry v. Ohio.   The majority opinion on Hiibel v. Nevada concurs that investigative stops that cannot demonstrate reasonable suspicion or that are based on the ambiguous or over-broad enforcement of existing law violate the Fourth Amendment principles affirmed under Brown v. Texas.  

FindLaw's Writ - Dorf: Can a State Make it a Crime to Refuse to ..

....the Court refused to go further, and establish a standard even lower than "reasonable suspicion." In Brown v. Texas, it held that absent reasonable suspicion of criminality, the police may not simply stop people on the street and ask for their names.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
Well  lets suppose that we take Popeyes example. We are actually getting serious about terrorism of any sort and we are targeting IRA members who are here illegally. Fair enough right? So the cops probably should stop any white person that they might fit the profile and demand documentation on the spot. This would happen no matter if it were speeding ticket or if you happened to be walking errantly in the park. Now the real question would this be ok with you? Would you feel fine with having to produce your documentation(drivers liscence not being enough) of your legal status to be here. This would also mean that you'd have to keep on your body this documentation day and night no matter the situation just in case you were stopped. Sounds to me like Nazi Germany but hey, at least it will keep all the old people in Phoenix happy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

boycotting a state? Seriously? Economic sanctions on OUR OWN COUNTRY?? Yeah I know it's not the government boycotting it but really I can't imagine the mental process that says "My country did something I disagree with, I'm going to work to economically cripple my country until it changes it. Because I love my country."

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

DMyngblk. Actually you are incorrect. Real ID is coming next year, and

Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation[16]:

A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.
Documentation of birth date.
Documentation of legal status and Social Security number
Documentation showing name and principal residence address.


This will be nothing more than showing a drivers liscence at a legal stop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Why you can't imagine that your dollars have power is because you continually prove your lack of insight when you post.

You don't like what a corporation does you don't buy their product...You don't agree with how a state conducts their business you don't give them your dollars.

It's pretty simple.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Why you can't imagine that your dollars have power is because you continually prove your lack of insight when you post.

You don't like what a corporation does you don't buy their product...You don't agree with how a state conducts their business you don't give them your dollars.

It's pretty simple.

It's not that I can't imagine that my dollars have power, I just can't imagine using that power to hurt my country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

boycotting a state? Seriously? Economic sanctions on OUR OWN COUNTRY?? Yeah I know it's not the government boycotting it but really I can't imagine the mental process that says "My country did something I disagree with, I'm going to work to economically cripple my country until it changes it. Because I love my country."

Why you can't imagine that your dollars have power is because you continually prove your lack of insight when you post.

You don't like what a corporation does you don't buy their product...You don't agree with how a state conducts their business you don't give them your dollars.

It's pretty simple.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
So you are good to go with being held in jail overnight if you don't have proper ID? And just how do you think they are going to "find" these illegals.....Just check speeders or people that run stop signs? That is laughable on the base of it. And, no, your accent wouldn't get you off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

DMyngblk. Actually you are incorrect. Real ID is coming next year, and

Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation[16]:

A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.
Documentation of birth date.
Documentation of legal status and Social Security number
Documentation showing name and principal residence address.


This will be nothing more than showing a drivers liscence at a legal stop.

You missed my point so I will restate with your facts. You have said ID. The authorities are still hunting Illegal IRA members so it is necessary to stop whites that fit that profile. Do you suppose white americans would be okey dokey with being stopped and asked to produce ID on the whim of a Police Officer? If that was the case the law would last about 15 seconds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth
Really? So you can't imagine boycotting a company if it turned out they were exploiting their employees?  Funny, I wouldn't hesitate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Why you can't imagine that your dollars have power is because you continually prove your lack of insight when you post.

You don't like what a corporation does you don't buy their product...You don't agree with how a state conducts their business you don't give them your dollars.

It's pretty simple.

It's not that I can't imagine that my dollars have power, I just can't imagine using that power to hurt my country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

RML, except your link to the Yahoo news story, in no way demonstrates that the law violates Hibel (or brown).

this is not a stop and identify law.


at all.

It specifically states,

"B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

Here is a link to the text of the actuall law.....

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf


It simply does not do what you and the rest of the left wing activist groups claim.


No one can be questioned for looking Hispanic.


It only applies to a lawfull contact by a police officer....


And with Real ID, it will be basically an instant check.


I think I have made up my mind on this issue.

That those opposed to it, have to make up stuff, and ignore the actually text, means a lot. Hell, the Obama Administration commented on it without even reading it. So it must be purley political concerns that drive them and thier opinion, not reality or the Good of the Nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth
Really? So you can't imagine boycotting a company if it turned out they were exploiting their employees?  Funny, I wouldn't hesitate.

I know they both start with C and end with Y but "country" and "company" are two different concepts.

Or at least they should be [8D]

quote:

You don't like what a corporation does you don't buy their product...You don't agree with how a state conducts their business you don't give them your dollars