Which religious beliefs still influence you? (Full Version)

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OrpheusAgonistes -> Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 5:01:30 AM)

Lady Angelika made a post a long time ago about Buddhism vs Taoism and my efforts to formulate a response have been kicking around in my brain since.  At various points, I considered myself both a (suburban) Buddhist and a (college campus) Hindu.  Neither belief system resonates with me today, but particular teachings from each do continue to shape the way I see the world.  The same is true for Christianity, and a few other belief systems I've toyed around with here and there.  Now of course there are plenty of bright people who hold firmly to a particular set of beliefs from a particular established religious school, and more power to them.  To be able to say "I am not just a Monotheist, not just a Christian, not just a Protestant, not just a Lutheran, but a Christian Protestant Lutheran who adheres to the doctrines of the Missouri Synod," (or whatever, you get the gist) is a clarity I will likely never know again.  For the rest of us, who are doing our best to cobble and patch together some kind of worldview from the soggy, discarded scraps of so many goneaway truths, I'm curious--What are you conscious of having kept from belief systems to which you no longer subscribe?

Mine, in part:

Christianity

I don't believe in the idea of double predestination, the Preterite vs the Elect, anymore, but it continues to shape the way I see the world.  The idea that the fortunate were singled out before their birth, and that the doomed were also singled out before their birth, and that no amount of effort can ever really change one's predetermined role continued to be a dark and disturbing force in shaping my worldview long after I'd abandoned Christianity.  It contributed to me seeing the world as a constant class struggle in my teens and early 20s.  It was one of the reasons I tended to break down the world into various two-faction scenarios--haves and havenots, men and women, liberals and conservatives, hedgehogs and foxes, Us (whatever that meant) and Them (whatever that meant)--always engaged in a grim war whose only outcome could be mutual annihilation.  I was a lot of fun at parties.

I do still believe in the idea, articulated by doomed activist and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, of "cheap grace" vs "costly grace."  Simply put, this is the idea that God gives grace (redemption, forgiveness of sins, salvation) freely, but that people who never experience the terror and sacrifice of real devotion and conviction only get the "cheap" and ultimately useless version.  Someone crassly summed this up as "There's no free lunch," but I disagree.  To me, this is a more elegant doctrine.  It says that lunch is, in fact, free.  You pay what you choose to pay.  There is no inherent advantage to suffering and paying purposelessly, no romance of pure suffering, either.  But when you find something you want, you have to be willing to suffer somewhat into its consummation.  What is worth having is worth infinitely more than you pay for it, but until you've paid something for it it's worth nothing at all.

Buddhism

Buddha's Fire Sermon still haunts me.  I think it was exactly right--everything is on fire, and the only escape is a cessation of desire and the willingness to be still.  "Being still" is almost impossible for me, and the ability to quiet my various urges and lusts has always been "all you can do is laugh" difficult.  And yet I think Buddha, in this sermon, got everything absolutely right.  I've always assumed that someday, I'll be a Buddhist.  This will probably be the day after I realize I'm no longer attractive to women anyway, so why not?

Hinduism

The idea from both Buddhism and Hinduism that "rebirth" is a kind of punishment has always resonated.  I love life just fine, but at the end of the day, enough will have been enough.  DC Berman once sang "And you can live again/But you'll have to die twice in the end."  My dad spent some time in India when he was younger and when the New Age reincarnation fad came along, he just laughed and laughed and said he hoped some of the people he'd known back then were making a fortune bilking American yuppies and wearing shit-eating grins the whole time.

The idea of samsara is still one of the biggest influences on how I see my own life.  In my bastardized version, it's come to mean simply that hell is repetition, that patterns of behavior persist much more strongly than we ever realize when we're trapped inside them, and that only audacious action (or non-action) can break the vicious circles in which we all sometimes spin ourselves.  Nabokov once wrote that "The spiral is mystical, perhaps because a spiral is a vicious circle that has been freed and allowed to follow its own inclinations."

Lila is also a powerful force in how I try to live.  A spirit of play, and the recognition of life as a series of games, is the only thing that keeps me somewhat sane at times.

Of all religions, Hinduism's mythos inspires the least belief in me, but its underlying philosophy and gestalt inspires the most conviction.  I also find some of the sacred texts (the Gita and the Upanishads in particular) to be among the most beautiful.  Plus, Siva and Kail were mythology's hottest couple.

I'm cutting it off here, because I've talked too long and I'm more interested in knowing what other people think.  I'm leaving off my own list, among others, Gnosticism (not just helpful for understanding Bowie lyrics), Judaism, Discordianism, and Sufism all of which have, at one time or another, had their own influences.

Also, one last caveat to anyone who actually has a proper and devout belief in any of the doctrines I've talked about--I mean no disrespect at all and nor do I pretend to have accurate summarized anything except for the haphazard, ad hoc understandings of these doctrines that I continue to hold long after belief in their underlying core systems has burnt itself out.
Edited because I typed "Hinduism" instead of "Taoism" in the intro to the post because I'm a bit of an airhead this time of morning.




eyesopened -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 5:24:41 AM)

I would have to say Taoism.  It was an 'aha' moment for me to be able to see "god" not as a being but as a Way.  

Nothing I learned or read but actually in pondering the question of why we would have been created it occurred to me that this Energy needs us.  From my Lutheran roots it would also explain Grace.  It needs us so mcuh that it would want to stay connected at all cost.  Also, that so many people feel a need to believe in something leads me to believe that this Energy, this Way is connected to us.  It needs us and is connected in some way so that in turn we may feel a need for it as well.  It's difficult for me to put into words.  Just my personal belief.  I don't expect anyone else to understand or agree or even care.




GotSteel -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 7:44:21 AM)

Huh, are you saying that god is parasitically feeding off of us somehow?




Termyn8or -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 8:08:19 AM)

Well, if you mean it that way there's no sense in me reading the whole thing, just give the answer. I don't believe or believe in any deity whatsoever. In fact I don't even know what it means to believe "in" anything. Either you believe it or you don't.

Modified Christian I guess would be the best way to put it. Not the belief, but the tenets. I can't swallow universal forgiveness and I can't swallow thou shalt not kill. I think it should read thou shalt not murder, there is a difference because there are a hell of alot of people who would do the would much more good with some lead between the eyes.

But I have not, and probably will never accept something into my "heart". If I even have one. Of course I have one, but it is nothing but a pump.

If everyone lived by the tenets of Christianity the world would not only be fit for human habitation, but might even be a nice place to live. But they do not, therefore I can not, therefore it is not.

So that's my answer and I know it might not quite be what you were looking for. Sorry if I stepped on your thread. I probably won't post again unless addressed.

T




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 10:36:04 AM)

I can't think of a single religious belief that has the slightest positive influence on me, in any way, shape, or form. 




FirmhandKY -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 2:10:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I can't think of a single religious belief that has the slightest positive influence on me, in any way, shape, or form. 


"Thou shalt not murder?"

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"

?

Firm




Dubbelganger -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 2:23:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I can't think of a single religious belief that has the slightest positive influence on me, in any way, shape, or form. 

Schlusselbergism has been an incredible influence on me. [sm=hippie.gif]




rulemylife -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 2:30:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I can't think of a single religious belief that has the slightest positive influence on me, in any way, shape, or form. 


Seconded.




rulemylife -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 2:34:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I can't think of a single religious belief that has the slightest positive influence on me, in any way, shape, or form. 


"Thou shalt not murder?"

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"

?

Firm



The problem is the religious believe religion, or more accurately their religion, is the source of everything good and proper in the world.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 2:56:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I can't think of a single religious belief that has the slightest positive influence on me, in any way, shape, or form. 


"Thou shalt not murder?"

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"

?

Firm



Those aren't religious beliefs. As Rule alludes to, those are universal moral concepts that religions have claimed as their own to substantiate their credibility and authority.




LadyAngelika -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 5:24:31 PM)

I was raised in the Catholic church but started taking my distance at 12 and was agnostic by 14, atheist by 18. Since then, I've read quite a few books from quite a few religious sources out of interest. I really like what the Tao had to offer but I never really considered myself a Taoist. I just borrowed.

I've seen many religious texts say very beautiful things, from the Qur'an to the Holy Bible. I've also seen some pretty disturbing things. I view them as philosophical texts that I can take stuff and leave stuff.

I'll agree with the Panda's post whole heartedly and say that I don't need religion to teach me these things, I need a conscience, which I have.

- LA




FirmhandKY -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 6:24:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Those aren't religious beliefs. As Rule alludes to, those are universal moral concepts that religions have claimed as their own to substantiate their credibility and authority.


I hear you and rule, but it sounds suspiciously like: "If it's good, then it's not religious. If it is religious, then it's not good"

False dilemma, logically.

Firm




Real0ne -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 8:22:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I was raised in the Catholic church but started taking my distance at 12 and was agnostic by 14, atheist by 18. Since then, I've read quite a few books from quite a few religious sources out of interest. I really like what the Tao had to offer but I never really considered myself a Taoist. I just borrowed.

I've seen many religious texts say very beautiful things, from the Qur'an to the Holy Bible. I've also seen some pretty disturbing things. I view them as philosophical texts that I can take stuff and leave stuff.

I'll agree with the Panda's post whole heartedly and say that I don't need religion to teach me these things, I need a conscience, which I have.

- LA



religion isnt a product you buy off the shelf and try it on and see how it looks.

It is the core you.  For the purposes here it is liken to the embodiment and transubstantiation of the summation of your life experiences to date. 

example atheism is a religion. 

Religion is everything you believe regardless of the basis of the belief.

In other words to say it another way you cannot use the word "need" because its not some subject matter you take in and presto you have religion and a title.  It is the digested and later regurgitated version of all your experiences and what comes out of you.  That is what your religion is.










ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 9:58:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Those aren't religious beliefs. As Rule alludes to, those are universal moral concepts that religions have claimed as their own to substantiate their credibility and authority.


I hear you and rule, but it sounds suspiciously like: "If it's good, then it's not religious. If it is religious, then it's not good"

False dilemma, logically.


Nah. I can't speak for RML, I don't think he's saying that either. I'm just saying that religions can't claim credit for moral principles that predate them.




Musicmystery -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 11:19:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Those aren't religious beliefs. As Rule alludes to, those are universal moral concepts that religions have claimed as their own to substantiate their credibility and authority.


I hear you and rule, but it sounds suspiciously like: "If it's good, then it's not religious. If it is religious, then it's not good"

False dilemma, logically.

Firm


Nonsense. You're constructing the dilemma yourself, and out of thin air.

That religion and morality are neither synonymous nor mutually exclusive is readily evident, as is that religions borrowed from existing ideas about morality rather than creating morality anew.





wittynamehere -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/17/2010 11:27:38 PM)

"Which religious beliefs still influence you?"

All of them, unfortunately. I doubt we'll ever be COMPLETELY rid of that kind of thinking, but luckily we're moving in the right direction. :)




FirmhandKY -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/18/2010 12:14:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That religion and morality are neither synonymous nor mutually exclusive is readily evident, as is that religions borrowed from existing ideas about morality rather than creating morality anew.


So, if a religion "borrows" a moral concept, that makes it not a religious concept?

Firm




Musicmystery -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/18/2010 12:40:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That religion and morality are neither synonymous nor mutually exclusive is readily evident, as is that religions borrowed from existing ideas about morality rather than creating morality anew.


So, if a religion "borrows" a moral concept, that makes it not a religious concept?

Firm

No, of course not---you're constructing your own dilemma again.

Geez--by definition, it's a religious concept if it was borrowed. Just not exclusively.






Elisabella -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/18/2010 2:01:00 AM)

-FR-

I never belonged to any religion, I was raised by two agnostics, so my first real in depth contact with any religion was when I started attending Catholic school when I was 13 and since then I've been searching for my own religious identity. At first I reacted pretty negatively to being told that unless I believed what they did, to the letter, I'd be condemned to eternal damnation, but at the end of HS I decided to go to a Catholic university as well, and I became very drawn to Catholic ritual. I started learning about the origins of Catholicism, and the origins of holidays like Easter and Christmas, and just felt like there was something to it.

I think most of the influence that religion has had on me is just in my worldview, religious concepts to me are symbolic representations of the world. The idea of death and rebirth, one man taking on the burdens of the world, a woman sanctified through motherhood, a trinitarian representation of one being, these all resonate with me, even if my interpretation of them is different from the Catholic one. The Son of God/Son of Man idea and the way Jesus spoke of his God as a father he had a personal relationship with is very influential on the way I view deities as well.

Judaism is a bit too structured for my tastes but I do see the beauty in it...even if I can't say I'm too fond of Jehovah I have to respect him. He's hardcore, and the Judaic roots of Christianity have had such a huge impact on Western society.

I also really like the Taoist saying "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao," meditating on that for awhile will really throw me off guard. But I can't say it's something that really influences my life on a daily basis, but it does help me change up my thinking when I need to.




Elisabella -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/18/2010 2:02:31 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I would have to say Taoism.  It was an 'aha' moment for me to be able to see "god" not as a being but as a Way.  

Nothing I learned or read but actually in pondering the question of why we would have been created it occurred to me that this Energy needs us.  From my Lutheran roots it would also explain Grace.  It needs us so mcuh that it would want to stay connected at all cost.  Also, that so many people feel a need to believe in something leads me to believe that this Energy, this Way is connected to us.  It needs us and is connected in some way so that in turn we may feel a need for it as well.  It's difficult for me to put into words.  Just my personal belief.  I don't expect anyone else to understand or agree or even care.


I do understand, and I think it's a powerful sentiment [:)]




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