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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/17/2010 7:50:47 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		lovingpet,

quote:

Recently, I asked my partner about wearing his collar under a very specific set of circumstances. This is something I have never asked before. I have been of the mind to just leave it to him whether he would or would not place me in a collar and under what conditions.  It was on my mind in this one instance and it really was gnawing at me that I really wanted to wear it, but more importantly for him to offer it and place it.


There's a lot of contradictions in this comment. And I've read your last post and I'll take your intention into consideration when I respond. In my opinion you weren't wearing his collar. You wore something that gave you a connection to him and possibly what being his might symbolize. The other thing that jumps out at me is your indication that you're waiting, but then you asserted yourself, but then you still feel you're waiting for him to make the final determination. Which is it? Waiting is an active state of being. If you're leaving the ball in his court on this issue that's where it is.

I notice you've been "of the mind" on this and that. But where does he stand on these things? What's his protocol? Are you expected to beg for his collar or to allow him to broach the subject.

quote:

I am not all wrapped up in symbols, but do so love having an outward sign of the condition of my own heart and mind.


You realize your statement really contradicts the value he's assigned to being collared, which isn't necessarily bad or wrong. But in terms of your station you were able to convince him to set that aside for an evening. In the grand scheme of things, in your opinion, what was more important that night?

quote:

I just know I wish to be claimed.  He wishes for me to acknowledged that and to what extent I already am claimed.  It is two vastly different ways of looking at this thing called ownership and I have to admit that, as I think about it, there are weighty arguments for why each is the right path for ownership to be finalized.


This statement is rife with over thinking. You keep sticking this under a microscope instead of stripping away the excess. You're adding more levels onto something very simple. He wants exactly what he said. You're not at the point to do/see/give that. Irregardless of the why that is the base truth on both sides. The only question you have to ask yourself is am I willing to set aside whatever is standing in my way to do things in the manner he wishes? Nothing more and nothing less.

quote:

This has me thinking.


He really should interject here and I say that with all sincerity. I also feel that honoring your request wasn't necessarily in your best interest. Unless he's willing to change the terms. It could send a mixed message. And as you've seen you're not any less confused than before.

quote:

How can both people's needs in this aspect be met?


When did that aspect of the relationship become your problem or responsibility? He wants it. He'll find a way to make it happen.

quote:

How can he just blatantly claim me with little or no input on my part?


You're still with him and you've already admitted that you want to be his. Why would he need to ratify an agreement you've already given him long ago?

quote:

How can I give him the assurances of accepting my place when I don't want to have that choice?


I'm going to leave you with the latter part of that sentence. If an omission of choice is involved it really wouldn't matter if you DID accept it or not. It would happen according to his timetable.

quote:

How can these two perspectives coexist within a relationship?


Again, you're taking on things that aren't rightfully yours to worry over. Unless he's come to you and specifically directed you to figure out the above, that's something you've decided to do on your own.

quote:

It is important that I do only because it is important to him


Stop. That's it. Now, will you do it?

quote:

Is there more to it than what I'm seeing?


Nope, but if you keep thinking you'll conjure more and won't be any further than you were before the last thinking session.

I'm going to be honest with you. As I read your remarks I see things that leave me a little confused. I know you to be quite intelligent and I don't think you lack understanding of what he wants. But for some reason it really seems as if you're trying to bargain. Negotiation is a tricky thing and many feel it has no place in dynamics such as these. I happen to agree.

In the end he's made his desires clear. There really are no ifs ands or buts unless he adds them. All the other scenarios you're envisioning fail to take into account that one thing.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/17/2010 8:21:47 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I will grant you that it was actually only "a" collar rather than "his" collar.  I understand that.  It was his to give or not even for the night, however, and is how I meant that.  I love symbols.  It is not at all that I don't appreciate them or what meaning a person attaches to them, but I know that the symbol only has meaning based on the thoughts behind it and the intent with which it is given and displayed.  Those thoughts and intentions are what matter to me and he feels the same.  I see the root of ownership to be a valid issue considering what that does to the meaning and intent of the collar.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what meaning I happen to attach to anything.  He will, in fact, get what he wants and it will mean exactly what he wants it to mean.  I have no doubt of that.  The question was asked more from the theoretical than the personal.  How does who establishes ownership effect the dynamic itself, the labels and symbols attached within the relationship, etc?  These questions don't go directly to my own personal situation.

As for my own personal situation, however, I will admit that I really do overthink and take on things that probably really aren't my place to concern myself over.  True, what is important to him wins and there is no contest on that.  I am not ready to go forward on that, but it doesn't mean I am not working on getting myself to the place where I am ready.  That would be the point of exploring these kinds of things on the theoretical plane.  I want to understand.  I can't exactly just mumble some words and have that be adequate to convince him that I have come to view things the way he does and am able to offer him what he needs.  I have to mean those words, actually understand and accept his point of view, and actually be capable of doing what it takes to meet his needs.  It isn't enough to just try to placate him and I sell both of us and our relationship short by doing so.

I am forever asking people what things mean to them.  It matters.  If they cannot express for themselves what is significant to them and why, then they often have trouble really being able to know when their needs are being met, when they are able to meet the needs of others, and what is good and right for them.  I think about the things I do in order to be the best partner I can be for him.  It may get tedious and annoying at times, but we both know that the goal is a positive one.  This is all a learning curve for me.  I have a great partner who is and continues to be very patient with me.  I am new.  I had not had a relationship of this type prior to him and am learning everything as I go along.  He has lead me through a lot of the "newbie" stuff already and continues to do so.  He knew going in that I knew really not a thing of what I was doing or where I was heading.  I had done a lot of reading and researching, etc, but I had not experienced it in real time before and surely not to the depths we have entered now.  I can accept your position that I am overthinking (sounds like it could have easily fallen from my own partner's lips actually LOL).  I know that I probably get into lines of thought that I might be better of leaving alone.  Still, all in all, I am just trying to figure things out and understand myself, him, and our relationship, this dynamic, and more.  Curiosity may have killed a few cats, but I think it has probably saved just as many from wandering into bad situations.

lovingpet    

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.


(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/17/2010 9:00:47 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Put whatever "spin" on is you want the way I read the post was that he was reluctant to drape a collar on her. She asked for one ... He "postures" and then say "ok whatever you want honey" I my little world my girl is suppose to have the desire to keep me "satisfied" to use your word.
Reasonably enough... and I'll grant you it's a fairly standard BDSM view. I just don't confuse authority with the purpose to which that authority is turned. There is nothing "undominant" about making a decision that is designed to please your partner. It's just a different priority scale driving the decision making process. If a priority scale that says, "Master first" works for you that's wonderful. I prefer a "us first" approach.


I hear you and agree with "us first" up to a point. You and I veer when it comes to a. major decisions b. decisions I feel strongly about c. very difficult ones. Determining if she will wear my collar is a major decision and one I feel very strongly about.

It's something I will decide alone.

BadOne

< Message edited by SailingBum -- 5/17/2010 9:02:22 PM >

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/17/2010 11:11:43 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		lovingpet,

quote:

I see the root of ownership to be a valid issue considering what that does to the meaning and intent of the collar.


Do you believe it to be a separate entity or an additional layer of possession?

quote:

How does who establishes ownership effect the dynamic itself, the labels and symbols attached within the relationship, etc?


In my opinion it matters not. A slave cannot own or enslave herself. If she begs the collar it's because that's the method he prefers. If he indicates that he makes the offer when he deems the time is right then that's how it goes. In terms of how one might feel on a mental level if you had to approach really depends on the dynamic. For some, there's no guarantee he will say yes, for others it's a foregone conclusion that he will when the girl is ready to do so. Both scenarios lead to the same conclusion, she's owned.

In terms of over thinking, when the vessel is full it is very difficult to add the wine. In the emptied state the space between can be filled with him. There's a different outlook, a cessation of endless churning, and a stillness that can't be bought. You also develop a level of awareness that was woefully lacking before. Challenges that appeared difficult aren't often seen that way. Clarity is gained because the things that impeded your vision are no longer a factor.

Sometimes we must lose to gain and in this matter letting go may be what's called for. You may find your answers once the less important stuff has been purged. :)

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 12:13:07 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Put whatever "spin" on is you want the way I read the post was that he was reluctant to drape a collar on her. She asked for one ... He "postures" and then say "ok whatever you want honey" I my little world my girl is suppose to have the desire to keep me "satisfied" to use your word.
Reasonably enough... and I'll grant you it's a fairly standard BDSM view. I just don't confuse authority with the purpose to which that authority is turned. There is nothing "undominant" about making a decision that is designed to please your partner. It's just a different priority scale driving the decision making process. If a priority scale that says, "Master first" works for you that's wonderful. I prefer a "us first" approach.


Browsing this thread again. How can "us" determine to wear a my collar? Just like "us" cant decide if I am ask my girl to wear my ring. Sure putting "us first" sounds good in theory but ultimately someone has to make the decisions. Otherwise

him Where do you want to go to eat? her I dont know. him well nothing sounds good. her well Im not in the mood for whatever.

Im not feeling the love with us first someone has to decide or they will starve

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 12:18:32 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		LadyAngelika, I'm 100% with you...


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Not everyone does WIITWD the same way. Contrary to what some people believe (and you'll see examples on this thread) D/s or M/s isn't all about the dominant party.


Leadership... I completely support your choice to define things this way...

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


It is not important to understand why your partner wants something. It is not your place to assign value to it. The only thing you need to know is that it IS important to them. That leaves you with the stark decision... provide whatever it is or don't. One of those choices enriches the relationship, the other leaves a vulnerability.



It seems to me that both of these superficially contradictory points of view are just as valid. Personally, I'm with LadyAngelika - I could not enjoy a relationship where there the needs and wants of one partner did not have equal value to the needs/wants of the other - notwithstanding the fact that they manifest themselves in different ways. Now, I'd stress that I don't read leadership527's comment as wanting the opposite - but initially it struck me as further along the spectrum which ends in "I'm the Dom, my needs are paramount, yours have no value".

The issue is, as usual that WIITWD ought to be .. ATDKTWDFDRAWDM (All the different kinky things we do for different reasons and with different motivations)...

To the OP.. Collars mean nothing to me. It's just not my bag. That doesn't mean that I think Doms or Subs for whom a collar has meaning are wrong - It just means I'd be incompatible with a sub for whom "collaring" was an important element.

I get the impression that your Dom has clear ideas about what a collar is for, and what role it implies, and that you have a slightly different take - Neither of you is wrong, it's just something you'll have to figure out.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 4:59:01 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

LadyAngelika, I'm 100% with you...


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Not everyone does WIITWD the same way. Contrary to what some people believe (and you'll see examples on this thread) D/s or M/s isn't all about the dominant party.


Leadership... I completely support your choice to define things this way...

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


It is not important to understand why your partner wants something. It is not your place to assign value to it. The only thing you need to know is that it IS important to them. That leaves you with the stark decision... provide whatever it is or don't. One of those choices enriches the relationship, the other leaves a vulnerability.



It seems to me that both of these superficially contradictory points of view are just as valid. Personally, I'm with LadyAngelika - I could not enjoy a relationship where there the needs and wants of one partner did not have equal value to the needs/wants of the other - notwithstanding the fact that they manifest themselves in different ways. Now, I'd stress that I don't read leadership527's comment as wanting the opposite - but initially it struck me as further along the spectrum which ends in "I'm the Dom, my needs are paramount, yours have no value".


The only issue that I have with Leadership's comment is that it is a communication blocker. Every time a partner has asked me my motivations, I've had no issue explaining them. Perhaps they ask at a time that is not appropriate and I'll decide when we'll speak about it, but to tell someone that it is not important to understand their parter and to simply just accept. I see this as a weakness on behalf of the dominant to explicate things and the men I date are way to smart and would see right through such behaviour. Once they understand it, even if they don't agree with it, I do then expect them to recognize that it is important to me and make it a priority for themselves as well.

quote:

The issue is, as usual that WIITWD ought to be .. ATDKTWDFDRAWDM (All the different kinky things we do for different reasons and with different motivations)...


Now that's what I call an acronym! ;-)

quote:

To the OP.. Collars mean nothing to me. It's just not my bag. That doesn't mean that I think Doms or Subs for whom a collar has meaning are wrong - It just means I'd be incompatible with a sub for whom "collaring" was an important element.


Same. I kind of stay away from the concept. I use collars in play, but not as a symbol of engagement. I remember once playing with one and not explaining to the man that it was a play collar. He had assumed that I had collared him and we had to sit down and discuss what collars meant to one another. We all learn from our newbie mistakes ;-)

quote:

I get the impression that your Dom has clear ideas about what a collar is for, and what role it implies, and that you have a slightly different take - Neither of you is wrong, it's just something you'll have to figure out.


I'm thinking this too, which is why in my initial response I put so much emphasis on communication.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 9:40:38 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I had this very conversation with one of my two partners on our drive back from LA last night. I think there are two common forms of healthy dominance (and probably others) and they are very different.

Style A - The dominant has a very clear picture of what his life will "be" and the slave/submissive/whatever is simply part of that pre-existing vision.

Superior Style B - Which is of course my style, is where the dominant takes the unique qualities of his partner, blends them with his and thus each relationship is unique. (Please note, title is sarcasm)

I liken it to road trips, some people want to map it all out and know the route and destination ahead of time. Myself, even if I have mapped it all out and have a destination, an attractive side road or an unexpected opportunity comes up may result in an entirely different trip than originally planned. If you prefer the former, the latter is going to make you miserable, if you prefer the latter, the former is going to be hellish.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 12:10:21 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		SimplyMichael,

quote:

Style A - The dominant has a very clear picture of what his life will "be" and the slave/submissive/whatever is simply part of that pre-existing vision.

Superior Style B - Which is of course my style, is where the dominant takes the unique qualities of his partner, blends them with his and thus each relationship is unique. (Please note, title is sarcasm)


I like this. Where the problem often arises is when the dominant has clearly indicated a specific style applies and the submissive insists on viewing it in a different context rather than accepting that is "his" way.

On the other hand, I can't dismiss the influences ones wiring and place on the kneel will have on your ability to respond as mentioned.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 1:22:10 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

lovingpet,

quote:

I see the root of ownership to be a valid issue considering what that does to the meaning and intent of the collar.


Do you believe it to be a separate entity or an additional layer of possession?


I am not completely sure I understand this question, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.  The collar is not its own character within our relationship.  It is a tool used to convey commitment and ownership.  That is a very simplistic answer.  In this situation, I felt very wary of going into the situation without the "lifestyle" equivalent of a blinking neon light that meant to back off, I'm taken, and this person right here is who you have to go through to get to me.  Perhaps a bit of irrational fear mixed with a bit of giggly girly fluffy emotional stuff about wearing a collar was in the mix (I know.  A shocker if ever there was one LOL).  For a play collar, that seems a fair assessment of what it would mean...with some other aspects thrown in that are understood by the couple.

When we get to a permanent collar, that's where I have a little trouble with the idea of my actions and thoughts will eventually precipitate that official ownership and that is what I think I am being told based on what he has said on the subject.  He has a predetermined frame of mind, etc I must fit and, when I do, it means it is time to take that step of formal, permanent collaring.  I don't have any idea exactly what the criteria are.  I take shots in the dark.  Fortunately, I am not trying to "achieve" a collar, but rather just taking every measure I can imagine to please him and make our relationship exactly where he wants to be.  I do figure that, eventually, doing so will have me exactly where he wants me in order to be collared by him, but only he knows when that time has come.  That's why, aside from understanding his views on the subject as much as possible, I have mostly just left this matter alone.

I do think how things begin has a lot to do with how things progress going forward.  If it is my acknowledgement in some way that basically "permits" the collaring to occur, that seems a level of control on my end that doesn't make sense to me.  If my acceptance or liking it has nothing to do with his decision because the ownership is already self evident, then I have no control in the matter and it seems more organic (as the rest of the relationship has been).  Somehow when I have a very conscious choice in the matter (regardless of knowing that my choices are affecting his decision one way or the other), it suddenly seems a bit contrived.  I know it is simply the way I'm viewing it.  By all means, if there is someone who can turn this around in my brain, I would certainly appreciate it.  I have tried and tried.

I know the best source for this kind of insight is my partner.  He is away for the week on a trip and out of touch.  To me, it is actually a good thing because it allows me some time alone with my own thoughts on the matter and some time to evaluate those thoughts, what I understand of his, and perhaps even come to some conclusions (with every intent of adjusting them based on conversations when he returns if necessary).  I want to use this week constructively in his absence, so posted this thread.  Yes, it already has me thinking.  I am not sure I have had the lightbulb moment yet.  It has happened for me on here before, so I am hoping it will happen again.  I appreciate the help in advance.

lovingpet 





_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 1:22:50 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Style A - The dominant has a very clear picture of what his life will "be" and the slave/submissive/whatever is simply part of that pre-existing vision.

Superior Style B - Which is of course my style, is where the dominant takes the unique qualities of his partner, blends them with his and thus each relationship is unique. (Please note, title is sarcasm)

I liken it to road trips, some people want to map it all out and know the route and destination ahead of time. Myself, even if I have mapped it all out and have a destination, an attractive side road or an unexpected opportunity comes up may result in an entirely different trip than originally planned. If you prefer the former, the latter is going to make you miserable, if you prefer the latter, the former is going to be hellish.


I'm style B as well, except for the his being her ;-)

I'm generally a "your kink is ok" kind of person, but style A is asinine. What kind of an insecure meat-head does one need to be to ignore the uniqueness of an individual they are sharing such intimacy with. I mean, get a blow-up doll if that's what you're into but deprive a human being from contributing their value.

- LA


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/18/2010 1:24:09 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 1:33:06 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Style A - The dominant has a very clear picture of what his life will "be" and the slave/submissive/whatever is simply part of that pre-existing vision.


I'm generally a "your kink is ok" kind of person, but style A is asinine. What kind of an insecure meat-head does one need to be to ignore the uniqueness of an individual they are sharing such intimacy with. I mean, get a blow-up doll if that's what you're into but deprive a human being from contributing their value.

- LA[/font]



I think A is just as valid as anything else and in fact tend to be closer to that with partners who are not primary. I would bet that Knight of Mists tends to be a lot more A than B and his two women seem to be loving life.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 1:35:23 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I think A is just as valid as anything else and in fact tend to be closer to that with partners who are not primary. I would bet that Knight of Mists tends to be a lot more A than B and his two women seem to be loving life.


Then we aren't envisaging style A in the same way. Style A, based on how you described it, to me comes across absolutely selfish.

- LA



_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 3:20:56 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I think A is just as valid as anything else and in fact tend to be closer to that with partners who are not primary. I would bet that Knight of Mists tends to be a lot more A than B and his two women seem to be loving life.


Then we aren't envisaging style A in the same way. Style A, based on how you described it, to me comes across absolutely selfish.

- LA





I tend to agree in part to the concept of the two styles.

Style A... I akin this to like joining an organization that is pre-established. It has it's agenda and way of doing things to a large degree. One can affect the organization but not likely they will fundamentally change it to a large degree. You join such a organization because in large part it relates and resonates with you. This is not to say your talents etc are ignored (though it is possible) in fact, you most likely will be welcomed in because you have the right stuff so to speak. On the intimate relationship scale this becomes extremely important on both accounts I most definitely very much a style A kinda of guy. With Alandra.. much of what I have today was being developed.. and to some degree it appeared.... I was using a more style B approach. But... in the end... I am who I am.. and look to bring people in that will fit this organization because it's the one that will give me the healthy and thriving well-being I require. I also only want those that will also thrive in this environment.

Style B... I see as a more of an organziation in the making. The others enter and it very much creates a whole new organization and the past one is non-existent. Companies merge in two princple ways. Equal partners forming a new culture as result or one is the Dominant of the other. Style B to me is equal partners putting together a new company. Style A is one Dominates what will occur if their is to be a union. This is not to say that Style B is less dominant. It's a question of style of how the two come together and not a question of how they function when they are together.


I thnk it becomes problematic when the two styles try to merge. If a girl came into my life expecting me to create a new foundation she would be badly disappointed and I would become equally frustrated and disapponted by her approach. I don't believe the two styles can be reconciled.. one has to give way to the other when your talking about merging two or more individuals into a relationship.

I will say that selfish attitudes can be destructive to either style when they are opposing each other with regards to their interests.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 4:07:47 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Browsing this thread again. How can "us" determine to wear a my collar? Just like "us" cant decide if I am ask my girl to wear my ring. Sure putting "us first" sounds good in theory but ultimately someone has to make the decisions. Otherwise

him Where do you want to go to eat? her I dont know. him well nothing sounds good. her well Im not in the mood for whatever.

Im not feeling the love with us first someone has to decide or they will starve


Leadership isn't talking about WHO makes the decisions.  He's talking about WHY he makes the decisions he does.

Firm and I have a similar "us first" relationship.  While Firm is the decision maker, he could make every decision with priority being on what he wants and what is best for him.  It would be within his right to do so, however, it would make for a top-heavy relationship where my wants and what is best for me might be neglected.

Alternatively, he could make my wants and needs a priority when deciding.  But again, the relationship would be unbalanced with his wants and needs being neglected.

Instead, where our individual perspectives might not be in synch, Firm places priority on what is best for our relationship.  After all, in the end it isn't me making him happy or him making me happy... it's our relationship making us happy.

(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 4:13:07 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		lovingpet

quote:

I am not completely sure I understand this question, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.


For some, ownership does not/cannot exist without a collar being given. Others acknowledge that ownership can occur regardless if a collar is provided. Your earlier comments mentioned your belief that you belonged to him. In my opinion that sort of seals it on the mental plane. You consider yourself his. Everything that follows is merely a manifestation of something you've already given over.

The challenge of accepting slavery is the realization of what it really implies. I won't say you should be afraid, but it should be a decision made with clarity and without haste. Although you have some "idea" of what he wants, there's a big difference between the here and now and the application of that when you're his slave. A lot less wiggle room comes to mind. I'm certain you can fill in the rest.

quote:

In this situation, I felt very wary of going into the situation without the "lifestyle" equivalent of a blinking neon light that meant to back off, I'm taken, and this person right here is who you have to go through to get to me.


Has that need been influenced by the relationship or did it exist beforehand?

As for the rest, I would see it as an outward display of ownership. The internal variety looks different. Your availability is of no consequence because you bear his etching upon your flesh. I don't know if you've ever encountered people that have that kind of aura. But their slavery is pretty hard to miss. Both are saying the same thing, it's merely articulated differently.

quote:

If it is my acknowledgement in some way that basically "permits" the collaring to occur, that seems a level of control on my end that doesn't make sense to me.


Perhaps it is easier to digest to say you've chosen this than to conceive that the choice was made long ago. You've remained because you truly want the outcome he desires. The foregone conclusions exist because you made it so.

quote:

I know the best source for this kind of insight is my partner.


It always is. But some dynamics welcome outside input. The trick is whether she finds her own answers or if the solutions are influenced by other opinions. The wrestling will always be a factor but it yields something stronger in my opinion. There's always the possibility that this medium will not be an option. And it isn't always a help. Some become too dependent on it.

Acceptance is a funny thing. Sometimes that's the real stumbling block in the road. Not understanding what we want, but accepting those wants and what we've chosen based upon them. Good luck.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 4:20:12 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Leadership isn't talking about WHO makes the decisions.  He's talking about WHY he makes the decisions he does.

Firm and I have a similar "us first" relationship.  While Firm is the decision maker, he could make every decision with priority being on what he wants and what is best for him.  It would be within his right to do so, however, it would make for a top-heavy relationship where my wants and what is best for me might be neglected.

Alternatively, he could make my wants and needs a priority when deciding.  But again, the relationship would be unbalanced with his wants and needs being neglected.

Instead, where our individual perspectives might not be in synch, Firm places priority on what is best for our relationship.  After all, in the end it isn't me making him happy or him making me happy... it's our relationship making us happy.




beautifully said by an equally beautiful woman

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 4:25:10 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Thank you.  

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 4:56:34 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I think A is just as valid as anything else and in fact tend to be closer to that with partners who are not primary. I would bet that Knight of Mists tends to be a lot more A than B and his two women seem to be loving life.


Then we aren't envisaging style A in the same way. Style A, based on how you described it, to me comes across absolutely selfish.

- LA


I tend to agree in part to the concept of the two styles.

Style A... I akin this to like joining an organization that is pre-established. It has it's agenda and way of doing things to a large degree. One can affect the organization but not likely they will fundamentally change it to a large degree. You join such a organization because in large part it relates and resonates with you. This is not to say your talents etc are ignored (though it is possible) in fact, you most likely will be welcomed in because you have the right stuff so to speak. On the intimate relationship scale this becomes extremely important on both accounts I most definitely very much a style A kinda of guy. With Alandra.. much of what I have today was being developed.. and to some degree it appeared.... I was using a more style B approach. But... in the end... I am who I am.. and look to bring people in that will fit this organization because it's the one that will give me the healthy and thriving well-being I require. I also only want those that will also thrive in this environment.

Style B... I see as a more of an organziation in the making. The others enter and it very much creates a whole new organization and the past one is non-existent. Companies merge in two princple ways. Equal partners forming a new culture as result or one is the Dominant of the other. Style B to me is equal partners putting together a new company. Style A is one Dominates what will occur if their is to be a union. This is not to say that Style B is less dominant. It's a question of style of how the two come together and not a question of how they function when they are together.


I thnk it becomes problematic when the two styles try to merge. If a girl came into my life expecting me to create a new foundation she would be badly disappointed and I would become equally frustrated and disapponted by her approach. I don't believe the two styles can be reconciled.. one has to give way to the other when your talking about merging two or more individuals into a relationship.

I will say that selfish attitudes can be destructive to either style when they are opposing each other with regards to their interests.



Firstly, thank you for your answer and perspective. I do appreciate it. Upon reading your more in depth definitions, I'd say that the ideal dominance situation actually blends both.

You compare relationships to organizations, but current day organizational theories will actually state the something very different. Leadership theories states that organizations in the making benefit from a very strong leadership, a visionary with an agenda that everyone will get in line with, but that once an organization reaches a certain momentum and level of maturity, all of the participants become actors in the network and contribute to the steering of the organization primarily via their interactions with one another and the system (see structuration theory). So in fact, looking at relationships from the perspective of the organization, at least based on modern organization theory, the model is the reverse of what you propose.

Now I'd tell you that solid organizations benefit from a strong leadership from a charismatic and visionary leader which is in-line with some of the concepts expressed in Style A but that unless that leader learns to delegate and listen to the pulse of his/her organizations, systemically, in many cases, the organization suffers. Listening and considering input will inadvertently leads to Style B. Even Steve Jobs gathers the input of the people around him.

- LA


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/18/2010 4:59:03 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 5:52:20 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		you are mixing apples and oranges. What gets an organization going is significantly different than subtaining and growing an organization. The two styles I am refering to in reference to Michael is about intiating the relationship.... but to substain that relationship is going to require a different set of skills that are more than just a vision of wants and needs

When Kyra came into my life.. I had my vision of the type of relationship that I would involve myself with. It's a vision that resonated with Kyra. But having the vision and being able to actualize it into reality required a development and learning process, structure to allow the members to thrive and a variety of skills to get results.

A vision is only useful if you have the tools to make it happen and the tools are useless unless you know what you want to make happen. I had my vision... Kyra didn't change that vision when she came into my life that was style A. But after she came into my life we went beyond the vision and establishing the relationship. Then we three had to make it work. Vision.. "We three are One" This has been my vision of a relationship well before Alandra came into my life. At the time though it was "We Two are One". I evolved into a poly lifestyle and that is part of the relationship changing and growing but the fundamental vision has not changed. I would also add that even though I had a vision that resonated with Kyra she didn't need to appreciate that the ability to make such vision a reality had to be there.

Some relationships make their vision when they come together as in style B and others like style A someone already has the vision. But regardless the style can a person make it happen? So far.. with my vision.. I have been very successful in making it a reality.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 40
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