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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 12:37:10 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I disagree. A symbol does not control or define the person or relationship.

exactly and that is the point.... the person/ relationship defines the symbol that represents what they have. Putting on the temporary collar that he has established has a play collar doesn't represent what he wants from the relationship based on what lovingpet has communicated. In fact, he wants much more than that. So by his choice of puting on a temporary symbol he is lowering what he actually wants. This is not to say that he can't or has changed what he wants. But, does he want temporary or does he want permanent. I am all for taking that path if it is the only way that is going to get him there. But I am not convinced that it's necessary to put on a temporary collar to get the the permanent one on and it may even make it more difficult.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 81

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 12:40:09 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

I understand what you are saying, Knight, and I partly agree. The reality of the thing only comes when we do this whole thing for real. That's when things like responsibility and commitment come in and not just how pretty the jewlery looks. I get that and there truly is no substitute. Where we part ways a bit is that, much like wearing my engagement ring around on a day to day basis, it gave me some idea what I might expect to experience once I DID have a wedding band on. Things like this do get noticed and how do I respond to that? Even when it is rather unremarkable, how do I conduct myself? It was enough of a gesture for it not to be a big leap to think that how I behaved, what I said, and my attitude in doing things reflected upon him to a degree it would not have otherwise. Yes, we went to this event together and were clearly a couple, but (like folks would have seen it at this same event last year) that didn't mean I was trained in the way he desired and I was at all obligated to do as he asked or would prefer.  No matter the nature of that collar, I lost that latitude in the situation and I felt a strong expectation to conduct myself well for him.

I'll be blunt. I didn't do such a great job. I think I was a bit loud and silly. He may think differently. We haven't really gotten to talk about that yet. I think it revealed that whenever that collar does go on that I will have some growing into it to do. That doesn't necessarily mean it needs to wait. It means I will be learning to live within the bounds being collared creates (those being realistically a bit different from what they are as uncollared).  He knows I will give it my best, as I always have. I gave it my best that night. Now if it wasn't quite what he expected he knows what areas need further training and can better address those aspects.

In answer to your question, yes I do want this. Risk and all.

lovingpet



_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 82

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 12:46:55 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

In answer to your question, yes I do want this. Risk and all.

then quit making excuses and practicing. You are only cheating yourself of the actual experience. Embrace the experience of being his slave. Whatever those experiences happen to be.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 83

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 12:53:36 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I am also in agreement with you that the asking was fine. Oh, this whole thing would have gone a lot worse in My house had she not asked. Frankly, the word 'shitstorm' comes to mind.

*laughs* yeah... me too. I get really testy when I don't here important things.

quote:

One of the things that I truly admire and respect about many of your writings here is that you do have a very clear bar. You know exactly what it means to you to call Carol your slave and you know exactly what you expect from her (and you) for that term to fit. You've even included in your comments here from time to time that, if your expectations of the dynamic were not being met, you would cease to call your situation M/s. That, My friend, is a bar.

True, I have a very clear idea of what M/s means to me. But here's a real life situation. I had Carol uncollared recently because she WASN'T matching up to that bar. Even more alarmingly, I'd come to the conclusion that the effort to do so was bad for her. But one night we were going over to friends. She didn't want to deal with the questions. So I put the collar on. It kind of hurt me to see it there, but I'm a big boy, I can handle it. That momentary situation did not in any way alter the larger reality. We both knew it. It was a pragmatic choice to not introduce unnecessary stress into an already stressful moment in our lives.

quote:

So, let's take that a step farther. Let's suppose that by the criteria that has been set by you, Carol is not reaching what you believe determines the definition of yours to be your slave. Yet, along comes some social occasion which is very important to her. For the course of that evening, do you give her permission to introduce herself as your slave? After which, of course, the next day you go back to whatever term you've established for her, since the truth of the matter is that, in your view, she's not being your slave. It's just for the course of an evening, right? That word is just something she can put on and take off for this special occasion.

See above. Not as a joke, no. But I am a fairly flexible and pragmatic individual. All I'm arguing here is that I don't truly understand enough of the various nuances of this particular situation with LovingPet to feel so confident about judging the action. But what I know for a fact is that it IS nuanced.

Again, perhaps I'm just being extra shy about the judgement from afar thing seeing as Carol and I were just on the receiving end of that with our now ex-friends.

quote:

It's very easy to reduce value. All it takes is to settle for less.

You and I are in total agreement on this. And, as you know, I'm a pretty big believer in taking the "T" part seriously. I almost feel like we are arguing more about "big picture" and "small picture" stuff than the settling for less description. Here's a question for you? By removing Carol's collar then replacing it again (twice now), did I reduce it's value? I would say "yes I did." On the other hand, subsequent experiences have increased it's value -- dramatically. Overall, I'd say I'm a net winner in a vastly huge way. Two steps back, 4000 steps forward :)

In that same way, did he perhaps diminish the value of the colllar in some way with this action? Probably yes. Do I see that as some sort of problem? No. I'm waiting for the story to finish before I render that judgement but as it sits, I'm seeing this as a pragmatic move on his part that is likely to turn out well when all the chips are counted.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 84

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 1:38:20 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

In answer to your question, yes I do want this. Risk and all.

then quit making excuses and practicing. You are only cheating yourself of the actual experience. Embrace the experience of being his slave. Whatever those experiences happen to be.

Dammit....Gotten again.

You people are awesome!

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 85

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 1:51:07 PM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Dammit....Gotten again.

You people are awesome!

lovingpet

There is a lot of affection for you here. (((hug)))

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 86

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 1:55:21 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

Thank you sweetie! *hugs back at ya*

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 87

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 2:06:44 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Cutting down only for the sake of brevity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
True, I have a very clear idea of what M/s means to me. But here's a real life situation. I had Carol uncollared recently because she WASN'T matching up to that bar. Even more alarmingly, I'd come to the conclusion that the effort to do so was bad for her. But one night we were going over to friends. She didn't want to deal with the questions. So I put the collar on. It kind of hurt me to see it there, but I'm a big boy, I can handle it. That momentary situation did not in any way alter the larger reality. We both knew it. It was a pragmatic choice to not introduce unnecessary stress into an already stressful moment in our lives.

Truthfully, I'd have probably canceled the social engagement. Especially if it were a case of us going to someone else's home, rather than them coming to Mine.

Still, I can see your logic in wanting to shield Carol from questions in regard to something that was there before that wasn't there now. Maybe I'm reading too much into the situation, but that's not the parallel that I'm drawing. (I'm sure lovingpet will correct Me if I'm wrong.) I see a vast difference between not being put in a situation where Carol would have to deal with explaining something that was there and then lost, and lovingpet's situation of something that wasn't there yet. From the little that I have to go on here, that's the key to this whole business.

quote:

Again, perhaps I'm just being extra shy about the judgement from afar thing seeing as Carol and I were just on the receiving end of that with our now ex-friends.

Unfortunately, Jeff, I do think that is influencing you. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I do think that, if we were sitting in the same room, I'd look you straight in the face and tell you that I don't think you're quite done coming to terms with that. Take it from a sadist, My friend. Pain, will absolutely, change your view...... At least for the moment.

quote:

You and I are in total agreement on this. And, as you know, I'm a pretty big believer in taking the "T" part seriously. I almost feel like we are arguing more about "big picture" and "small picture" stuff than the settling for less description. Here's a question for you? By removing Carol's collar then replacing it again (twice now), did I reduce it's value? I would say "yes I did." On the other hand, subsequent experiences have increased it's value -- dramatically. Overall, I'd say I'm a net winner in a vastly huge way. Two steps back, 4000 steps forward :)

Well, it's a good question. One that, unfortunately, I can't answer from experience. Or, fortunately, depending on how you want to look at it.

To this point, I have never had to remove My collar from clip. Yes, there have been times that he has tread dangerous ground of Me doing so, but it's never quite come to that.

I would think that, if I did, the both of us accept all that comes with it. That includes our potential discomfort. While I might change My opinion should that situation present itself, I don't really see Myself putting on a show for others in hopes of avoiding that.

Your outcome was obviously a success. If it wasn't, how long would the charade continue?

quote:

In that same way, did he perhaps diminish the value of the colllar in some way with this action? Probably yes. Do I see that as some sort of problem? No. I'm waiting for the story to finish before I render that judgement but as it sits, I'm seeing this as a pragmatic move on his part that is likely to turn out well when all the chips are counted.

You know, some people read the last part of the book first, so they know how it turns out. Others, start out with the first page and don't jump ahead so they can experience every part of the story. I never read the last page first. Doing so only makes you less entralled with the good parts in-between.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 5/19/2010 2:10:23 PM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 88

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 2:08:53 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Double post.

See..... I told you that I made mistakes.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 5/19/2010 2:11:00 PM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 89

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 2:43:46 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

*giggle*

You are right that this was a case of putting something there that hadn't been there before and sets up a bit of a different situation than that of Jeff and Carol, but ultimately, it was for similar reasons. I wanted to attend this event in support of my friend and to meet the lovely people that would be there, but I have a hard time with dungeons and public play which we are working on that had me unable to sleep and sick to my stomach. We were throwing out ideas that might help me be able to focus on him, relax, and enjoy things instead of being a mess. I put this one out there with the explanation that when I couldn't snuggle up to the actual security blanket (him) that I had a little something to hold on to if I needed it. There may have been other ways to do this, but this was one that had "universal" significance (ie: folks at least have some idea what a collar means) rather than something that was really still just had meaning to the two of us. It was meant as protective of me when I was feeling very fragile and yet trying to work on something very difficult for me (public play) because I know how important it is for him. Like I said, maybe there were other ideas that could have worked. He surprised me for sure in selecting to go this way. I am just glad he took my concerns and feelings seriously and took whatever action he thought was appropriate to address them.

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 90

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 4:07:05 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Masters can change their minds also though :) Especially when it comes to the transient nature of some symbols, I am not quick to say he "lowered his standards" just because he they had a good discussion over it and he agreed to this. It really depends on whether he feels this situation remains in the same box, or remains its own independent bubble.

From one LA to another, agreed.

My mother has often used a common French expression Il n'y a que des fous qui ne changent pas d'idées and I'm not sure if the equivalent exists in English, but it translates to "only crazy people never change their minds".

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 91

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 4:09:45 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You guys are reversing it. I'm not saying the first time isn't special. I'm saying the second, third, etc times are no LESS special just because it's not "the first."

I am not saying that other times are not special... but there is something unique to the first time that is never the same. I remember very very few times with alandra in a sexual way. But our first time together is to this day crystal clear, just as it's is crystal clear the first time I was with Kyra.

So if the first is the most special, is the first girl you collared more special then the second? Or is this something that only applies to women and first times?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 92

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 6:59:14 PM

scifi1133

Posts: 8529
Joined: 3/27/2007
From: virginia
Status: offline

Is this the collar that you got while Red was supposed to be having her birthday party.

_____________________________

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awwwwwww yeeeeeeeeah
And I see your schwartz is as big as mine.
My heart 10-01-72 / 10-16-09

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 93

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 7:04:46 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
So if the first is the most special, is the first girl you collared more special then the second? Or is this something that only applies to women and first times?

- LA

Completely off the subject here, but I'll bet there isn't a person on these boards who doesn't have a very particular recognition in them for their first BDSM experience, their first love, or their first sexual encounter.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 94

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 8:03:49 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So if the first is the most special, is the first girl you collared more special then the second? Or is this something that only applies to women and first times?

- LA

Having that first special moment with an individual regardless who it is doesn't equate that the person it was shared with is the most special. The first time sex was with Alandra and that moment can never be duplicated in anyway. But that doesn't make Alandra more special because we share that moment. It just means that we shared that moment. My first born child was another incredible moment that was shared with Alandra. But that doesn't mean Alandra or I see the our first child as the most special because of that moment. Alandra was my first slave and the only woman I actually married. That moment can never be dupilicated and Kyra is not threaten or insecure because of it. It's not without Irony that the day I actually put the collar on Kyra it was anti-climatic and ordinary. We stopped and had pizza on the way from the airport, went to a movie (can't remember what it was) then went home and put the collar on her without much protocol or ritual. After alittle play we went to bed. We kind of laugh about it because it is so contrary to the accepted dogma that one sees in the lifestyle. In all reality it was not an emotional memorable moment for us and we only recall it in much detail because it's so contrary to the norm. Kyra wasn't even our first threesum ( I think she is some where in round 7 or 8 and that is only if you don't count the repeats before her then you getting well into the double digets) She wasn't our first Poly dynamic either. All those moments of the first time that I value do not make the person I shared them with more special because of them. A person is special for who they are and not what we do together.

Secondly, I find the question particularly catty and derogatory in nature it doesn't reflect well of you. The question reminds me of something a spoiled immature child would ask.

Thirdly, It is without question that there are some first's that I have shared with Alandra and not Kyra. We are fortune that Kyra is both mature and secure enough to appreciate the value of some important firsts that people can have in their life and not be threatened because they didn't occur with them. It seems to me that Kyra has had a few first's without me as well and Like her... I like to hear about those first's that mattered to her. Because they are important to her, they are important to me.

and as a last note.... Kyra doesn't regret that she had sex with others before me (not surprized by the answer actually). But she does regret that she had sex with those she didn't love in the past which actually has nothing to do with me.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 95

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:27:26 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

KnightofMists,

I always find it interesting when people revert to calling other people catty and immature like it was some kind of reprimand when they ask the tough questions. That doesn't reflect well on you.

I've always found your posts to be quite interesting and always open minded enough to have a good debate about concepts without taking things so personally. I'm actually quite surprised with your reaction throughout this thread. Earlier on I mentioned we might be at an impasse and your retort to me was less than collegial. It seems you need to be reminded that there are points of views other than your own in the world.

That said, the cattyness was your perception. I was trying to support LuckyAlbatross's point that second and third times are just as valid and that this first time is some great big myth used to keep women virgins. I have a tendency of asking questions in the devil's advocate kind of way in order to make some people realise the implications of some of their broad sweeping generalisations. It is a technique commonly used in a friendly debate. It's unfortunate you're predisposed to read it as malice and chose to let your feathers be ruffled.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/19/2010 10:38:31 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 96

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:50:48 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
So if the first is the most special, is the first girl you collared more special then the second? Or is this something that only applies to women and first times?

- LA

Completely off the subject here, but I'll bet there isn't a person on these boards who doesn't have a very particular recognition in them for their first BDSM experience, their first love, or their first sexual encounter.

My first BDSM experience was indeed special because they young man in questions was, but I can't say the same about my first sexual encounter. I find that when firsts are special, they hold a special place for me but not because they are firsts but because they are special. My most special encounters have happened irregardless of where they happened in the timeline of my life. In fact, I put much more value on some of the latter experiences because I've gotten to know what I want much better.

Just to contextualise my question, it was in response to LuckyAlbatross's comment:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

The unfortuanate fact to me, is that he indeed has dimished the experience of wearing that slave collar the first time she puts it on if that indeed ever occurs.

That's the same quack reason they give for making girls stay abstinent or monogamous. It's not diminished just because it's not the first/only.

That is what I was referring too. Often times, society pushes women to put too much emphasis on the first times.

Now this relates to the OP is that some of the arguments are that her first experience would somehow be diminished. I don't think those same arguments would have been used if the OP was a male sub. I'm not "accusing" anyone of chauvinism (lest I be accused of being catty again) but I am pointing out some of the ways we as a society have been wired to think.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 97

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 11:01:27 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I will have some growing into it to do

We all assign different weight or value to certain symbols. An example of this would be a cross on a chain. Clergy who wear that cross would, perhaps, believe it to be a token of their faith/religion/spirituality. Someone else may regard its value only as far as who gave it to them, or how much it cost.

I would guess the fundamental difference is whether a collar represents the type of relationship one has with their partner (as in, we would still be together but not M/s or D/s) or whether it defines the entire relationship (as in, without the M/D/s we would not be together at all). Both ends of that spectrum, as well as all points between, are valid somewhere for some people.

Is it seen as ~a~ collar or ~THE~ collar? Does it really change the depth of the relationship, add any responsibility, alter how hard you are willing to work to make the relationship last? As you said, you wish to 'grow into' it. The great part of that? You don't have to wear it to 'grow'.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 98

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 11:16:44 PM

Hawkwindblues

Posts: 183
Joined: 6/26/2009
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Masters can change their minds also though :) Especially when it comes to the transient nature of some symbols, I am not quick to say he "lowered his standards" just because he they had a good discussion over it and he agreed to this. It really depends on whether he feels this situation remains in the same box, or remains its own independent bubble.

I take a collar of ownership exceedingly seriously and frankly consider anything before at least five years together to be rushing it a bit. But I'll still use collars for other purposes and reasons. My standards are not lowered because of the multitude of applications.

bolded by me HWK

snip.

Starting with the words of LA, i would like to add, that symbols and what are collars other than symbols? could be used in many ways. The path to obeying is different for every human being and the hurdles too.

When i work with somebody who is very much into material symbols i use them, when i work with somebody who benefits from a mantra i make one and when i work with somebody who is able to love and follow, i do it that easy unhurdled way. 2 weeks ago in a discussion concerning the work with people who migrate to germany, i said something like: "I am good at reaching people and for a starting contact/rapport i am nearly willing to go every possible way."

That concerned work and in a sadomasochistic relation other rules apply naturally, but my main intention to get the most developement for both or more people out of the contact stays.

_____________________________

After 10 years with the handle ZenDragoness it is time for a change.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 99

RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/20/2010 7:09:01 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Using fast reply....

I think only Lovingpet will know what wearing that collar temporarily meant to her, and what if any effect it will have on her and their relationship.

The quirky little goth girl I saw a few times earlier this year wore collars as part of her daily adornment. Another person will place, almost spiritual, value on one. For some it's a dog collar put on them as a humiliation for temporary play, for others a custom jeweled adornment signifying a lifetime commitment.

To argue what it means now and in the future, for another, is futile. To make a snarky judgment of what it means to another person, is asinine.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Hawkwindblues)

Post #: 100

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