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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 5:58:06 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		KnightofMists,

quote:

I thnk it becomes problematic when the two styles try to merge. If a girl came into my life expecting me to create a new foundation she would be badly disappointed and I would become equally frustrated and disapponted by her approach. I don't believe the two styles can be reconciled.. one has to give way to the other when your talking about merging two or more individuals into a relationship.


I like what you said. But I'd think that the one giving way has already been predetermined. I'd be more inclined to wonder why she hasn't and what's preventing her from doing so.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 6:13:10 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
you are mixing apples and oranges. What gets an organization going is significantly different than subtaining and growing an organization. The two styles I am refering to in reference to Michael is about intiating the relationship.... but to substain that relationship is going to require a different set of skills that are more than just a vision of wants and needs


You were the one proposing the difference between a budding organization and a one that was in place and I simply spoke to your analogy. I commented on exactly what you said, however proposing the reverse. So in essence, we had the same kind of fruits, just looking at them differently.

That said, all organizational theories contradict one another and I spoke from a voluntaristic perspective which is what is currently at the forefront of organizational theory. Had I written from a deterministic perspective, we would have had a whole other set of results, but I tend not to speak from this perspective.

quote:

When Kyra came into my life.. I had my vision of the type of relationship that I would involve myself with. It's a vision that resonated with Kyra. But having the vision and being able to actualize it into reality required a development and learning process, structure to allow the members to thrive and a variety of skills to get results.

A vision is only useful if you have the tools to make it happen and the tools are useless unless you know what you want to make happen. I had my vision... Kyra didn't change that vision when she came into my life that was style A. But after she came into my life we went beyond the vision and establishing the relationship. Then we three had to make it work. Vision.. "We three are One" This has been my vision of a relationship well before Alandra came into my life. At the time though it was "We Two are One". I evolved into a poly lifestyle and that is part of the relationship changing and growing but the fundamental vision has not changed. I would also add that even though I had a vision that resonated with Kyra she didn't need to appreciate that the ability to make such vision a reality had to be there.


What you just wrote here supports exactly what I wrote. Style A is very useful to a dominant in the beginning and will work best if the submissive party buy into this ideology. I myself have a no-nonsense submit or be gone policy about meeting someone. Either they want to follow my lead or they don't. But for in the long term, the dynamic has to move towards Style B.

quote:

Some relationships make their vision when they come together as in style B and others like style A someone already has the vision. But regardless the style can a person make it happen? So far.. with my vision.. I have been very successful in making it a reality.


You might not have lost sight of your vision, but because you have two bright and amazing women in your life (I say this solely based on the quality of their posts on this message board), there is no way your vision hasn't been altered even one little bit by their presence. A pure Style A would not allow for that. This is why I say a blend of both is necessary.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 6:40:25 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm about to become very unpopular.

I would not have granted your request.  Yes, I understand that this occasion, and for it, this symbol, meant a great deal to you.  Truthfully, I probably would have had some difficulty having to look at the disappointment on your face when I refused you, but I would refuse it, nonetheless.  Just the same as I would have misgivings about someone wanting a ring on their finger when there was no marriage involved.  This whole thing smacks too much of pretension to Me.  You wanted others to see a symbol of ownership implied.  That wouldn't sit well with Me.

It seems to Me that your Master has a very specific definition of what a collar means.  While I freely admit that he and I probably have a different concept of that, there is one thing that I believe most people will not argue.  A symbol, such as a collar, has to mean the same thing to both people involved or it means nothing.  That makes it nothing more than a trinket.  I have a hard time believing that is what you really wanted.

While it is one thing to wear a collar on your neck to display yourself as submissive, to get that freedom of feeling self expression of who you are, it is entirely something else to imply something that is not yet complete.  From reading this thread, I am not quite sure where that lies.  I could be wrong, but maybe you should think about that.

You know, My dear, you often start these threads where I feel I am harsh with you.  That is not My intention.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 6:51:23 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

You might not have lost sight of your vision, but because you have two bright and amazing women in your life (I say this solely based on the quality of their posts on this message board), there is no way your vision hasn't been altered even one little bit by their presence. A pure Style A would not allow for that. This is why I say a blend of both is necessary.

- LA[/font]



The vision as not be altered! not even a little bit. For the most part, the only aspect that they have affected is how to achieve this vision. Even with that, it's actually pretty minor compared to the whole. They are good soldiers.. they follow.. I lead.... They have incredible abilities and I use them to the fullest in achieving what I want. This doesn't equate going to style B. Since, style B is about the method of establishing the vision just like that of style A. Also, style A or B doesn't equate to having or being limited in how one will actualize the vision that was established.

My particular style with regards to actualizing my vision is to do it my way! Not our way. My girls have many talents and some I use and some I don't. But in the end... I am doing my way! That's what happens when you have all the authority. Which is functional different in organzations. All authority doesn't rest with the CEO even though much does. They do have owners to answer to just like my slaves do.

Maybe this difficult for you to appreciate and understand since you might not be living or choose to live in a dynamic where all authority is transferred to one person. Maybe you can't wrap your mind around it. I can't wrap my mind around alot of things... but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't possible. Having all the authority has a distinct affect on how things are done in a relationship. Because in the end... if it's functional... how things are going to be done rests with one person. I make those decisions on how to do it with the tools (my slaves) at hand to actuallize my vision.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:04:14 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Knight, while I appreciate what you are saying, I actually can't wrap my head around the idea that total and absolute authority is transferred to one person. Human interaction is much too subtle and influential. It's like thinking pure objectivity is possible. The more we try to achieve it, the more we ignore the unidentified variables.

Yes, in a relationship, I want things my way as well and there has been no doubt in the past to partners that I am in charge. I too have a vision of the ideal relationship and man who will submit to me and on a few occasions, I've had it. But I also recognize that adding someone to my dynamic will undoubtedly influence my desires as we are all all products of our environment and interactions. To ignore that factor to me is to ignore their contribution.

That said, I do respect your perspective of things but I doubt we'll come to an agreement on this particular point. We seem to be coming at it from very opposite perspectives. I'm quite ok with that ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:05:20 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm about to become very unpopular.

I would not have granted your request.  Yes, I understand that this occasion, and for it, this symbol, meant a great deal to you.  Truthfully, I probably would have had some difficulty having to look at the disappointment on your face when I refused you, but I would refuse it, nonetheless.  Just the same as I would have misgivings about someone wanting a ring on their finger when there was no marriage involved.  This whole thing smacks too much of pretension to Me.  You wanted others to see a symbol of ownership implied.  That wouldn't sit well with Me.

It seems to Me that your Master has a very specific definition of what a collar means.  While I freely admit that he and I probably have a different concept of that, there is one thing that I believe most people will not argue.  A symbol, such as a collar, has to mean the same thing to both people involved or it means nothing.  That makes it nothing more than a trinket.  I have a hard time believing that is what you really wanted.

While it is one thing to wear a collar on your neck to display yourself as submissive, to get that freedom of feeling self expression of who you are, it is entirely something else to imply something that is not yet complete.  From reading this thread, I am not quite sure where that lies.  I could be wrong, but maybe you should think about that.

You know, My dear, you often start these threads where I feel I am harsh with you.  That is not My intention.




I haven't really answered the OP.. and largely because I didn't know where to start or how to say what I wanted to say. But I will give a big DITTO to this.

To equate this into a vanilla dyanamic. I don't recall ever hearing someone wearing the wedding band of their boyfriend or girlfriend becuase they wanted to feel special I see the collar as something significant though there are different types of rings as there are different types of collars..... even though they can look the same. Being on the same page is important and I believe pet's Partner compromized himself. He wants her to be his slave then he should hold her to those standards and not lower the bar. Maybe he didn't lower it.. but if he did... only he will actually know the truth of it and he will regret the choice if she doesn't jump that slave standard he has established.

I see that he wants her to be self-motivated to be his slave. That is great... but he can't lower the bar in hopes that she will be motivated in that direction. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. I am not likely making alot of sense... my thoughts are still rather jumbled on this particular point.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:16:24 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Knight, while I appreciate what you are saying, I actually can't wrap my head around the idea that total and absolute authority is transferred to one person. Human interaction is much too subtle and influential. It's like thinking pure objectivity is possible. The more we try to achieve it, the more we ignore the unidentified variables.

Yes, in a relationship, I want things my way as well and there has been no doubt in the past to partners that I am in charge. I too have a vision of the ideal relationship and man who will submit to me and on a few occasions, I've had it. But I also recognize that adding someone to my dynamic will undoubtedly influence my desires as we are all all products of our environment and interactions. To ignore that factor to me is to ignore their contribution.

That said, I do respect your perspective of things but I doubt we'll come to an agreement on this particular point. We seem to be coming at it from very opposite perspectives. I'm quite ok with that ;-)

- LA



I am not concerned if you agree or not. I am rather aware that most can't wrap their brain around this type of dynamic. Case in point, this dynamic doesn't equate to ignoring my girls contributions or that they can't contribute anything. But, I decide what contributions will be adopted and what will not.

Secondly, you hold a fundamental assumption that I disagree with. We not products of our environment and interactions. We are a product of our choices within the environment and relationships that we exist in. I fundamentally believe in self-determination and as such my choices are the result of me actively being me. The environment and relationships that I exist in are not much different than the canvass that an artist expresses a part of himself on. The difference being is that the environment and our relationships response back to us and as such I will respond within the manner that is consistant with who I am and continue to express myself upon the canvass.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:22:30 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Without getting too far off topic, I agree with a mixed approach of influence of the environment and of voluntarism which is what I was suggesting in my initial response to you: "all of the participants become actors in the network and contribute to the steering of the organization primarily via their interactions with one another and the system (see structuration theory)". To think that it's one of the other is a debate akin to a dog chasing it's tail.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/18/2010 7:23:04 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:28:48 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		LA, perhaps instead of an organization, you might use an analogy with someone converting to a religion? If someone decides to become Catholic, the Catholic Church isn't going to change to accomodate their views on abortion, homosexuality, etc. If they choose to formally convert and declare that they will abide by the Catholic church's standards, and have no intention of following through, they're lying. They'd be better off refusing to convert, and finding a church that fits their belief, or attending without formally converting. In an organization, there is a lot more room for flexibility, and there doesn't tend to be the same degree of expectation of behaviour, mindset, and so forth.

lovingpet, I'm afraid I have to agree with LP on this one. My Master sometimes has me wear a play collar. If I asked him to let me wear it to a formal high-protocol D/s event and give the impression that I was collared, it would be deceitful. I am his slave, but he hasn't chosen to use a collar as a formal symbol of our relationship, so pushing for that on a temporary basis would feel wrong.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:37:14 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		LP:

No hard feelings I assure you.  I know my request had some touches of prentension as you put it.  I think it is something that might be misconstrued, however, that I simply wanted to be seen wearing a collar while with him for an evening.  I was extremely insecure in the situation.  I am very secure in him.  I guess I just felt the need for an extra dose of him and his control of both me and the situation in this case.  I am sure that others may not understand or need that, but all I could do was ask and explain myself.  I apparently did so to his satisfaction and he did this willingly and enjoyed the experience at least as much as I did.

I can understand where you are coming from though.  I don't want a symbol with no real meaning behind it and I agree we should have the same understanding of it and that something of the permanent nature should be entered into with an abundance of both caution and information.  I also know that he feels the very same way.  He does, however, occasionally involve the use of a play collar when he desires (though he never has with me up until that night).  Given that this did not violate his protocol and was something he has done in the past when it seemed appropriate, I didn't feel like my request was out of bounds.  If his only use of collars was of the long term and permanent variety, it would have been entirely out of place and his indulging me would have left me very shaken up.  It is not the case here, however.

I really don't think at this point ownership is merely implied.  I think I have both admitted to such and he has claimed such so often that I don't even really know what is at issue in the first place.  I don't know why this hasn't gone to a permanent status already except perhaps logistical issues.  No one implied anything that doesn't already clearly exist.  Ownership isn't in question.  An excellent question would be exactly what IS the issue at hand, but he's not available to ask at this time and has not commented in other discussions.

Would I have been devestated if he had told me no?  Sure.  Would I have accepted it and made the best of the evening anyway?  Certainly.  His decision.  I have no problem accepting what he decides.  I think this got all spun around the play collar issue when what I am really tangling with here is the initial triggers that switches a relationship over from one dynamic to another.  Specifically, what it is that brings about a transition from submission to slavery.  He says I have to accept myself as such.  I tend to believe he will take what he wants and I will be whatever he determines I will be.  To me, these are vastly different and was my goal to understand what he expects and then to further determine if what I think is valid, can mesh with his ideas, or if I need to toss mine out the window and work on this from the frame of reference he is using.

He stated that my even playing with the notion of a collar denoted some degree of slide and change in my thinking.  He said it meant I either already did or was close to identifying as a slave.  This is based on what he knows of me and how I have approached this particular subject over the long term.  For him, for all our other dynamics, the only one he reserves a permanent collar for is that of slave.  The rest do not fall into the category of a collaring type relationship as far as he's concerned.  It is the one part of the identity, most know very well I have been very hesitant to take up.  Whether I consciously do or not attach that label to myself changes not a bit whether or not I actually am.  It is a matter of facts regardless.  Yes, I have been pretty stubborn and a bit in raging denial of it all, but it truly changes nothing.  The facts remain the same.  I would just love to be able to just quit it and accept this in the way he wishes.  It isn't a fair thing to either of us for me to just say so and not really be able get past the same old stumbling blocks.  I don't want it to matter.  I can see why it does.  That just has me feeling like I am running my head into a brick wall repeatedly.  I can't make the breakthrough happen.  It's frustrating.  I imagine it's a bit the same for him watching me go through all this.

I hate the idea of being pretensious.  It really isn't my way at all.  Maybe there was something wrong with my request or with the way I am thinking about this.  I could only discuss with him openly what was on my mind and allow him to determine what should be done about it.  It's the best I could do.  I get a lot of feelings of my best not being good enough (mostly my own self talk I'll admit).  I don't know what else to do.  Is it perfectly okay to try to understand this so that maybe, just maybe, I might finally get it and be able to fulfill what he has asked of me?  I hope that's not the wrong thing too.

lovingpet  

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:48:33 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		LadyAngelika,

quote:

But I also recognize that adding someone to my dynamic will undoubtedly influence my desires as we are all all products of our environment and interactions. To ignore that factor to me is to ignore their contribution.


He doesn't deny the influence their presence brings he merely chooses how those influences will or won't impact him and their relationship. They must be in accordance with the goals he's established for the pairing. His role affords the ability to choose as he sees fit. His slaves don't choose what impacts them. Their only choice is whether they'll be obedient and do as instructed.

quote:

I actually can't wrap my head around the idea that total and absolute authority is transferred to one person.


For the slave, everything goes back to that original decision to serve and what that entails in her station. He uses what he pleases and that doesn't mean he's unaware it exists or that her talents could be beneficial. Their usefulness is always in relation to the things he places importance on. It isn't a democracy.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:50:23 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

LA, perhaps instead of an organization, you might use an analogy with someone converting to a religion? If someone decides to become Catholic, the Catholic Church isn't going to change to accomodate their views on abortion, homosexuality, etc. If they choose to formally convert and declare that they will abide by the Catholic church's standards, and have no intention of following through, they're lying. They'd be better off refusing to convert, and finding a church that fits their belief, or attending without formally converting. In an organization, there is a lot more room for flexibility, and there doesn't tend to be the same degree of expectation of behaviour, mindset, and so forth.


Actually, I wasn't the one that brought up the analogy of the organization, KnightofMists did and I ran with it. An organization would not have been my first choice for an analogy. That said, there are interesting parallels from a systemic perspective.

I personally will not view my relationships as religions. That said, the Catholic religion has revisited their views over and over again to accommodate a sign of the times, I believe the most current examples being Vatican II.

As I've stated before, I have a submit to me and my style or be gone attitude from the beginning as I feel it sets a nice baseline. But life has taught me that the more we think we are in control of everything, the less actual control we have.

quote:

lovingpet, I'm afraid I have to agree with LP on this one. My Master sometimes has me wear a play collar. If I asked him to let me wear it to a formal high-protocol D/s event and give the impression that I was collared, it would be deceitful. I am his slave, but he hasn't chosen to use a collar as a formal symbol of our relationship, so pushing for that on a temporary basis would feel wrong.


To get back on topic, I agree with LadyPact's response as well. If I'm set in my ways about the way something is going to be, I'm not likely to be swayed, especially in regards to the way that I feel about the level of commitment in a relationship.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 7:59:13 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
It isn't a democracy.


Definitely not a democracy. We refer to it as a benevolent dictatorship.

Knight's Kyra

*apparently he has been using this laptop and my nick is no longer signed in *g*

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 5/18/2010 8:16:09 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/18/2010 9:42:02 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

LadyAngelicka Said:
The only issue that I have with Leadership's comment is that it is a communication blocker.
To be clear, I did not mean for this statement to be used in situations in which understanding is possible. But in some cases it is not. For instance, in the case of individual preference. There is no reason why Carol prefers chocolate and I prefer vanilla... it just is. While it is always desirable to understand, my point was that it is not necessary.

In a specific relationship example, Carol feels close and loved and cared for when we chat about the day's events.... what to me is idle chit-chat -- afterall, I was there for the day's events... I saw them as she did. We probably talked about them as they unfolded. But it is not my value judgement on this that matters and it really doesn't matter that I don't understand why such chat is important to her. I will never understand. It just is. My only decision is to provide that to her and so fulfill her needs or deny it and deny her needs. Each of those two decisions has consequences.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 1:25:18 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		submission or enslavement or the two combined come from the heart and mind and if that is what you have given why does it matter what you call youreself, or am i missing the point.

as for the little voice in youre head morphing a command to make it more acceptable or possible for you to submit to, hell, id imagine most sub types do that from time to time - switching off that little voice would be switching of you - how you compute a command is youre style and personality, what matters is that you do it anyway, how you got there is youre own mental processing at work.  if i was a domme id like to think that if my sub needed to process something they did rather than just blindly do it without thinking it through first.  sometimes finding our way is all part of submission to something - i consider it mindful submission.  youre not brain dead lp and he wouldnt want you if you were.

it does seem to me and i might be totally off the mark, but you guys seem to have hit an empass on this.  its been going on for quite a while with you.  how much of this is you not embracing the term 'slave' because YOU dont identify with it - why does it matter if you identify with it if youre submission and everything else is now going on as before.  what actually changed between you when he put the collar on - id argue nothing of any actual importance.

if it meant that much to you - and im not sure it would mean as much to me if id asked to be collared for an occasion knowing he wasnt convinced - what emotional thing happened there for you.  if those tears were for the shere joy of wearing his collar then surely youre wanting his collar means that you are internally enslaved - how is it that both of you missed that moment for what it actually was.


< Message edited by lally2 -- 5/19/2010 1:26:01 AM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 3:04:12 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		ive just read another post of youres lp, the one about needing an extra dose of him in a slightly difficult situation for you.

i have been collared to go to a club.  the statement was 'owned' more for the benefit of the people at the club, so as not to leave any ambivilance there, but it was a superficial statement in many ways.  i have been collared while my Master visits or i visit him and that was more a 'get in the groove' type of a thing.  niether held much significance to me as such, it wasnt an official collaring at all.  therefore it didnt get me all teary -

so you say it was to get more of a dose of youre Master to give you more confidence, so im back to my original question - why did it mean so much to you, why did you cry when he put it on and took it off.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 5:32:45 AM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Is there more to it than I am seeing?



Edited to add something (duh!) ... and to delete the long quote at the beginning, which I put there for reference but forgot to remove.

ROFL! You always pose the most complicated of situations. And it was extremely unfair of you to stick that "key in the ignition" comment in the middle of all that complexity, you know. :/ It totally derailed my logical brain and I had to switch to backup analogy mode (but not very voluntarily--pedal to the gas? Ack! Please, I don't want to go there, particularly in backup analogy mode!)

I don't know if I can write at the moment, but that's never deterred me before, so here goes... something. ;)

The situation already exists. You're even aware of it at times, as your post makes clear. What remains is merely full acknowlegement. Take your time, this isn't a race to be won, in fact, the more naturally this acknowledgement occurs, even if slow, the better will be the results in the long run. How will you know when you're completely there? Here's the roadsign I use/have used: it won't matter to you in the least whether you are claimed (as you want) or whether you instead acknowledge the claiming (as he wants). Once you arrive at a place, the differences between methods transit become trivial and immediately start to fade from memory. All that matters is that you are there.

(time, which included an invigorating shower to awaken the brain cells, passes)

Oh shoot, I realize I didn't address your current situation very well. I just talked about the future. A consequence of logic flying out the window, I'm afraid.

One thing that might help is to view your situation in perspective. To me, the perspective of a submissive who wants a dominant to own her, no matter how familiar she is with that dominant or how assured of his affection, is that of a begger asking for crumbs from the table of a great king. It would be pretty ludricous for a beggar in that situation to demand a flowerly, gold-embossed expensively-printed invitation begging her presence to dine with His Lordship at such and such a time, wouldn't it? Try to see your expectation to be claimed in that light and your dominant as a great king. You have something rare, lovingpet: a working, happy, compatible extreme power-exchange. Perhaps you are not aware of how rare that is, although at times you seem to realize it, despite being surrounded by propoganda to the contrary. It helps not to take such things for granted, as they are not common and do not come at a snap of one's fingers.

< Message edited by CaringandReal -- 5/19/2010 6:08:38 AM >

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 7:01:34 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I concur with what LadyP and KoM has already stated, which is no surprise since I almost always agree with them.

I see the situation as manipulative. The revulsion I have towards anyone trying to manipulate me, would have created a much different ending. I do not know how most s-types feel about it but I know I lose respect for a M or D type that allows it to go on.

I believe it is human nature for the slave/submissive to try and get their way. How they do it will depends upon what has worked for them in the past. Ultimately, if is allowed to continue to work,  I see it as a weakness in the person that is supposed to be leading the relationship.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/19/2010 7:02:23 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 7:26:20 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

LP:

No hard feelings I assure you.  I know my request had some touches of prentension as you put it.  I think it is something that might be misconstrued, however, that I simply wanted to be seen wearing a collar while with him for an evening.  I was extremely insecure in the situation.  I am very secure in him.  I guess I just felt the need for an extra dose of him and his control of both me and the situation in this case.  I am sure that others may not understand or need that, but all I could do was ask and explain myself.  I apparently did so to his satisfaction and he did this willingly and enjoyed the experience at least as much as I did.



I actually don't have a problem with the asking. It seems to be you where rather honest with the reason's for the wanting. I do have a problem with the giving... because the more I read... the more I preceive a lowering of the bar by him.

quote:


I can understand where you are coming from though.  I don't want a symbol with no real meaning behind it and I agree we should have the same understanding of it and that something of the permanent nature should be entered into with an abundance of both caution and information.  I also know that he feels the very same way.  He does, however, occasionally involve the use of a play collar when he desires (though he never has with me up until that night).  Given that this did not violate his protocol and was something he has done in the past when it seemed appropriate, I didn't feel like my request was out of bounds.  If his only use of collars was of the long term and permanent variety, it would have been entirely out of place and his indulging me would have left me very shaken up.  It is not the case here, however.


and this is where I see that he lowered the bar and he should of been making a distinction between you and others he put a play collar on. You ARE NOT his intention to be a play partner... it's his intention to have you as his SLAVE. That distinciton... that motivation makes the your situation completely different. He lowered you to that of a play partner and ... one doesn't put a play collar on one they believe and want to be their slave. So... is there a violation of protocol... in my world there is. I have collars for my slaves that I will use in play. But make no mistake... it's like another wedding ring that they only wear for certain occassions and it wasn't one they wore until they had a lock upon the collar.


I think what is going to be disappointing is the emotions and feelings when you actually had the slave collar put on. The feelings you received with this play collar was significant to be sure.... but it will cheapen/lessen the feelings when or if you ever put the slave collar on compared to if you never wore the play collar in the first place. Because here is the thing... He is right in that you are closer to his slave. Those emotions you felt was not that of girl putting on a play collar it was more alot more.... but it wasn't what it could of been and that is sad.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 8:14:54 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK, with this one, I'm going to be a rebel and argue vehemently against both LadyPact and KoM... a thing which is in and of itself interesting since I can't remember the last time I disagreed significantly with either of you two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I actually don't have a problem with the asking. It seems to be you where rather honest with the reason's for the wanting. I do have a problem with the giving... because the more I read... the more I preceive a lowering of the bar by him.

Yup, you and I are agreed that the asking is fine. I'm not willing to go so far as your second statement though. There is just way too little information and I've heard too much that is sensible and rational about this guy up until now. Real life.... at least the real life that I inhabit, tends to be highly nuanced and I'm not going to be second guessing such an ambiguous situation based upon so little information.

Insofar as this business of "lowering the bar".... pfffft. What bar? There's some bar somewhere? When did this become a competition? Are we scoring? What did the East German judge give? I just don't see it in that context at all. I see two mature, competent individuals struggling to achieve a very difficult goal... together. Me personally, I don't give a rats ass if the bar moves up, down, and sideways during that struggle... all I care about is whether they make progress -- together. And you know what? Even after she gets this "real collar", the struggle isn't going to end. I don't know how other people do it, but in my marriage, the "bar" is not so clearly defined, but it very clearly does move up over time. When we get good at some level, I make the goal harder. Things that challenge Carol and I now would not even have been on the radar map a year ago.

Finally, to address the question of reducing the value of some later collaring. In my own little corner of reality, Carol being my slave is an ongoing wondrous delight. It changes and morphs over time. There's been a lot of two steps forward and one step back stuff. But what has been consistently true through all of it is that it has been magical. What makes it magical is not the collar around her neck. It's the union between us. How exactly does one reduce the value of that? For us at least, not a single one of the various struggles, stumbles, wins and losses along the path up until now has in any way lessened what we have. Good lord! They were the path! By definition they are to be cherished.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 60
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