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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 8:51:55 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Then I suppose you see nothing wrong with the bride wearing the wedding dress out to supper before the wedding. Or maybe going to the office party with the dress and wedding bands on. Of course, it is only a small detail that the wedding cermony has not occurred... but hey wearing the dress will not affect the moment no will it.

I suppose that they are some that it indeed would not make a difference in their lives. But many it would and I am of the opinion that in this case it would. Not just based on this thread but many of the comments and posts from lovingpet that I have read in the past I don't just consider what is within a thread.... there is always more and forturnately there is alot more coming from her than what is just in this thread on these forums.

There is a signficant difference between being involved with someone in a significant way and being their slave or Master. I reached that point in two different ways with Alandra and Kyra. Alandra is simliar in circustances that you are trying to go through with Carol. We had to acknowledge and accept what was there between us with regards to our authority dynamic and not allow this process to destroy the relationship we had. We had a bird in hand didn't want to lose it for the bird in the bush. In the end, I established a process that brought us to where we are today. It was not so much achieving or jumping a bar as it was revealing what one was. Alandra and I would never of been where we are today if I didn't establish very clearly the defined parameters of what this type of relationship is. We didn't push to be this.. we showed ourselvest that we are this by the fact that we could function rather happily with the defined parameters of this type of relationship. When Kyra came into our life. She basically had the refined version of what our relationship is. I could intellectualize to her what it was and could bring the emotional connection to what it is like to live this type of lifestyle. In the end, the leap of faith into slavehood is an emotional one. For many there is an intellectual process but the final step is always emotional and maybe even spiritual to some. I am an extremely practical peson but, I do appreciate that in some cases the emotions are a powerful force that one needs to bring to critical mass to enable that leap into slavehood. Mind will remove the objections, but it is the heart that will cause the person to jump.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 8:58:05 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		LaTigresse,

quote:

I see the situation as manipulative. The revulsion I have towards anyone trying to manipulate me, would have created a much different ending. I do not know how most s-types feel about it but I know I lose respect for a M or D type that allows it to go on.


You remind me of my former mentor and I say that with great fondness. She was very matter of fact and spoke candidly about this subject more than once. The stance you and LadyPact have taken resonated a great deal. :)

.................

Greetings lovingpet,

I'm going to share two things with you. The first relates to the above and the other addresses the feelings you're speaking of since I recollected my own. My apologies for the delay. I'm old. Things come a bit slower these days. :)

When I originally replied I had a very strange feeling that you negotiated. How that's seen in each dynamic is different. What applies to you and yours is unknown. But I will share a personal experience to drive home the point the others have made. I have been in situations where what I desired didn't coincide with his bottom line. He was very direct about what that meant and how it would come about. I wanted it, but perhaps the road there wasn't something I believed I could do or was able to do at the moment. So I tried to compromise.

My reasons were sincere. I wanted the goal but the way I went about it was very wrong. Unlike your dominant my suggestion wasn't granted. Although it was heartfelt it would have changed things dramatically. Bending would have altered the context of what was stated and that part remained the same. Saying yes would mean I got my way. It could set a very bad precedent for the future. When something works we're apt to try again. Although it may not have altered my opinion of the one involved, it would introduce something into the dynamic that wasn't there before. Those instances of no were beneficial to both.

Shifting gears...

I can recollect the early stages of my descent. I vividly recall a lot of angst, tears, and uncertainty. I often asked what it meant and where things might go. I think some of the questions are to be expected. I was also afraid and required reassurance and experienced a lot of churning within. I understood what it meant, but the reality of it frightened me on some level. Uttering the words wasn't terribly difficult. Accepting and believing it with every fiber of my being was the problem. I never expected to be in that place and my ideas of slavery weren't always in line with his.

I remember when he asked if I could accept being a sex slave. How would I view myself. Well, I was still pretty liberated back then. The thought was so demeaning in my mind I cried. I had a hard time understanding how that could be positive. I saw myself as much more. Part of the experience was learning how to see myself through his eyes. I spent a lot of time alone when I wasn't with him. It was a definite wrestling match, but the one I was fighting against was inside of me. However, I needed to go through that. In a weird way it helped me to solidify a few things in my head.

What helped me settle is a little surprising. I attended Servant's Retreat that summer and the three days had a great impact on me. I remember listening to the other women as they shared their experiences and remarking about my own. One of the participants was in her eighties. She wore a beautiful posture collar and spoke with such pride and devotion about her station. We were all deeply touched. I smiled through tears because I wanted the same. But self-doubt was in the way.

We each had individual time with Lady Catherine. She's larger than life with an openness I really appreciated. As I sat on the bed next to her and we reviewed my comments she gave me the strangest look. I asked her what advice she had for me and I never forgot her words. "You're already there." She went on to explain what that meant and began to fill in a canvas I had previously refused to face. She didn't tell me anything I wasn't aware of on some level, I simply wasn't ready to acknowledge it in that capacity.

When she finished speaking she looked at me again and candidly said, "you know this already." I nodded and the conversation shifted. We discussed what follows and where I saw myself in the years to come. It marked a pivotal shift in my thinking and how I viewed my slavery. Bringing all of myself to the kneel meant just that. I had a lot to draw on. But I didn't recognize it until then.

As the tears streamed down my face I began to feel waves of relief and the internal knots started to loosen. When I left that evening I walked along the quiet street and softly murmured, "I'm a slave." Not because she saw it or the others or my owner at the time. I said it because I knew it was true. Not because someone else wanted it to be true or wanted me to see and think the same. The truth coursed through me and I smiled with pride.

That place of knowing is manifesting within you as we speak. But no one can affix a time when it will finally blossom. It will come alive when you're ready to receive it wholeheartedly. It is my sincerest hope that when it occurs you'll be filled with the abundant joy I felt on that summer night.

In Leather and Light,

~slave porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 9:06:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Masters can change their minds also though :)  Especially when it comes to the transient nature of some symbols, I am not quick to say he "lowered his standards" just because he they had a good discussion over it and he agreed to this.  It really depends on whether he feels this situation remains in the same box, or remains its own independent bubble.

I take a collar of ownership exceedingly seriously and frankly consider anything before at least five years together to be rushing it a bit.  But I'll still use collars for other purposes and reasons.  My standards are not lowered because of the multitude of applications.

quote:

Does it come from me and my saying that yes, he does have that control and authority over my life and that I belong to him?  Or does it come from him and his saying that he chooses me and to take up, for himself, the control and authority over my life and that I belong to him? 


The complex simple answer is yes.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 9:12:24 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Then I suppose you see nothing wrong with the bride wearing the wedding dress out to supper before the wedding. Or maybe going to the office party with the dress and wedding bands on. Of course, it is only a small detail that the wedding cermony has not occurred... but hey wearing the dress will not affect the moment no will it.
Maybe, maybe not. But our wedding was so incredible that both of our faces hurt from smiling for the entire next day. It could afford to be "diminished" without losing much. And honestly, I'm not very focused on particular moments anyway... they are just moments... intangible really in the larger process of living one's life.

quote:

I suppose that they are some that it indeed would not make a difference in their lives. But many it would and I am of the opinion that in this case it would. Not just based on this thread but many of the comments and posts from lovingpet that I have read in the past I don't just consider what is within a thread.... there is always more and forturnately there is alot more coming from her than what is just in this thread on these forums.
Clearly her "not-quite-owner" (*laughs*) felt differently. He was the guy on the spot. I stand by my original statement... I've heard too much sensibility out of him to be second guessing his judgements from afar.

quote:

Alandra and I would never of been where we are today if I didn't establish very clearly the defined parameters of what this type of relationship is. We didn't push to be this.. we showed ourselvest that we are this by the fact that we could function rather happily with the defined parameters of this type of relationship.
*nods* You and I are on the same page here. Remember, I'm with you on the whole "you don't get to say 'no' thing". I have some fairly strict standards too and always have -- strict enough that I just lost some friends over them. I'm just not mistaking the symbol for the reality. The collar is just a collar. It doesn't get invested with meaning all at one moment. That meaning gets laid onto it over time like a fine lacquer finish ... coat after coat... till it is deep and rich. I have, at various points, collared Carol, uncollared her, and done god knows what else along the way. I'm absolutely certain that lots of people would be posting "OMG" messages. But the fact is... fact as determined by real life not internet theory... is that they'd be wrong. I'm not willing to make that same mistake here with lovingpet and her owner.

Everyone's journey is their own... especially if they are going for the more extreme ends of the D/s spectrum. Yes, I've seen their struggles. But nowhere in that have I detected anything other than two fairly sensible individuals. I just think you've overstepped your actual knowledge here Knight and are now in "internet theory" land. So out of curiosity, as history unfolds say about 6 months from now, if we ask lovingpet at that time was it a mistake and she says, "nope", are you going to be willing to eat crow?

Perhaps I'm just sensitive to this whole theoretical judging thing having just lost those friends because, according to his theory, Carol could not be happy. He never bothered to actually check with Carol and gather some facts.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgment - 5/19/2010 9:26:29 AM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		Lovingpet, these are just my impressions and thoughts based only on your OP:

1.) You seem to have some trust issues (I don't fault you on that at all- its just my impression). Maybe you think if you formally identified as slave, this would make you even more vulnerable to being hurt by him, than you are now? If so, then exactly how would it? Exactly what are you afraid of, that slavery under him might leave you vulnerable to- what kind of hurt, or whatever else-  that couldn't already come to pass as things are now?

2.) We ALL need and want to belong, and to feel that belonging within, and have it acknowledged to our satisfaction, from without. (Another way to say from within and without is: intrinsically/extrinsically). Its a very deep-seated need. Both of you seem to be holding this over each others' heads, each in your own way, in effect dangling it just out of reach of the other. You each have your reasons. Seems like he's got some trust issues too, which may be fine. Trust has got to be earned over time, after all. But its got to be maddening- very frustrating to you both over time, that you are having this done to you (especially by someone so close to you and dear to you!), and that you feel the need to each do it yourself, in turn to one another. Can you discuss with each other what your reasons are, so that you can begin to be able to address them properly in order to move past them? Or, how long are you both willing to stay in that cycle? Where is the point of diminishing returns, in that dynamic? If it has already been reached, can you leave it now? If not, then when can you? What exactly- what internal and external changes- do you need from one another, to break through to a deeper, more fulfilling level of trust and quit dangling each other like cat toys?



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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgment - 5/19/2010 10:01:57 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Just a thought, now the woman knows how much wearing the collar means to her...guess who really wants to be collared now?

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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:28:34 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Just because I turn left to get to where I wanted to go instead of turning right as I need to actually get to where I wanted to go doesn't change the fact that left was a mistake. It doesn't discount the fact that I can learn from the mistake and even enjoy that learning. But, all the learning from it doens't make it any less of mistake, it is making the best of the moment. In the end, we do have to make the best of the moment since I don't believe every choice is going to be the right one. I have many regrets and mistakes.... I just didn't let those regrets and mistakes stop me from getting where I wanted to go.

It just might be that they will eventually get to where he wants them to be. The unfortuanate fact to me, is that he indeed has dimished the experience of wearing that slave collar the first time she puts it on if that indeed ever occurs. The question becomes did wearing the play collar become necessary to get her to the point of wanting the slave collar. I don't believe it was. If it was then I will eat the crow, but she will have to justify for me why it was necessary. What she couldn't get any other way but by wearing that play collar.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:33:30 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

The unfortuanate fact to me, is that he indeed has dimished the experience of wearing that slave collar the first time she puts it on if that indeed ever occurs.


That's the same quack reason they give for making girls stay abstinent or monogamous.  It's not diminished just because it's not the first/only.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:44:19 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

The unfortuanate fact to me, is that he indeed has dimished the experience of wearing that slave collar the first time she puts it on if that indeed ever occurs.


That's the same quack reason they give for making girls stay abstinent or monogamous.  It's not diminished just because it's not the first/only.


It's ironic that one of Alandra's regrets is that I wasn't her first and nothing can change that fact. Something that I did give her and have never regretted the not taking advantage of the opportunities before her. The first time is special for those that want to make it special. I made that choice some did not and are no worse for wear others have regrets.

edited to add.

I am not sure if Kyra regrets it... I don't believe she does (going to have to ask her). But, I do know that she made a choice not to engage in SM with anyone but me long before she became mine. Apparently she wanted it to be special for her and not dimish our first experience together. This is not to say that it needs to happen that way. But one needs to truly consider it's importance because the first time only happens once.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 5/19/2010 10:49:42 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:48:32 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

The unfortuanate fact to me, is that he indeed has dimished the experience of wearing that slave collar the first time she puts it on if that indeed ever occurs.


That's the same quack reason they give for making girls stay abstinent or monogamous.  It's not diminished just because it's not the first/only.


Hell yes it is! Doing something the first time with someone makes it very special, at least to me, clearly to KoM. I have collared one woman in my life and that is a special thing to me. I know that I am unlikely to ever collar anyone again till after I am married to them, that is how serious collars are to me.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:51:43 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		You guys are reversing it.  I'm not saying the first time isn't special.  I'm saying the second, third, etc times are no LESS special just because it's not "the first."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgment - 5/19/2010 10:52:17 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		There is a lot of good stuff here and I wish I had the ability to respond to it all.  I do think these points are a good place to start, however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

Lovingpet, these are just my impressions and thoughts based only on your OP:

1.) You seem to have some trust issues (I don't fault you on that at all- its just my impression). Maybe you think if you formally identified as slave, this would make you even more vulnerable to being hurt by him, than you are now? If so, then exactly how would it? Exactly what are you afraid of, that slavery under him might leave you vulnerable to- what kind of hurt, or whatever else-  that couldn't already come to pass as things are now?


The trust issue isn't with him.  It is with myself.  He and I have discussed this many times.  If you think about the traits he has brought out of me as characters in a book it might make more sense.  I am just being introduced to this character (part of myself).  I don't know what she's all about, how she interacts with her world, or what the consequences of her entering my life's story might be.  What I do know is that when the world crushes in and that same strength that she has to have in order to be that slave self crushes back against it, the ending collateral damage is all the tender, fragile pieces that laid just beneath that tough exterior (the things that most needed guarding).  It is not even that I don't trust "her".  It is that I don't trust this world with "her".  An excerpt from something I wrote to him on the matter: 

To me, I am only safe to be a slave inside your collar. I cannot be a slave with no owner and no protection from those who would exploit that portion of my nature. Maybe it isn't “cannot”, but I do know it is a very intimidating proposition... Freedom comes from inside your collar. The only thing that comes from outside it is the urgency to be in it. When I am your collared (damn you haven't any idea how hard this is to say) slave, only then am I free to be exactly who and what I am and know that I am safe and cared for. That's how it feels to me.
 
This is me speaking honestly with him on the matter.  I am told to simply say what I think and feel.  He takes it for what it is and doesn't look for ulterior motives behind my words because he knows I do not do that kind of thing (intentionally at least and the rest he knows is not malicious and addresses it with me).  I am sure there will be critique of this and I expect it, but he has a lot of history behind what I am saying and understands what isn't evident in that small space.  One of the biggest things he understands is that a feeling is just a feeling and it is neither right or wrong.  It just is.

quote:

2.) We ALL need and want to belong, and to feel that belonging within, and have it acknowledged to our satisfaction, from without. (Another way to say from within and without is: intrinsically/extrinsically). Its a very deep-seated need. Both of you seem to be holding this over each others' heads, each in your own way, in effect dangling it just out of reach of the other. You each have your reasons. Seems like he's got some trust issues too, which may be fine. Trust has got to be earned over time, after all. But its got to be maddening- very frustrating to you both over time, that you are having this done to you (especially by someone so close to you and dear to you!), and that you feel the need to each do it yourself, in turn to one another. Can you discuss with each other what your reasons are, so that you can begin to be able to address them properly in order to move past them? Or, how long are you both willing to stay in that cycle? Where is the point of diminishing returns, in that dynamic? If it has already been reached, can you leave it now? If not, then when can you? What exactly- what internal and external changes- do you need from one another, to break through to a deeper, more fulfilling level of trust and quit dangling each other like cat toys?



Both our pasts do weigh into this especially in my feeling safe and his being able to believe he is not being deceived.  We have talked about these things too and the fact that they are deep wounds that take time to heal, but are doing so at a rapid pace since entering each other's lives.  Really?  I'm done.  I have had all the evidence I need to assure me of his character.  The battle is just on with self now and has been for awhile now.  I don't know where he is with his stuff at this point.  We are in the midst of a lot of changes, for the good.  I don't know exactly how those things have affected him, though we have talked about it and I have some vague idea.

We are nowhere near diminishing returns.  We are growing all the time.  Part of growing is pain and part of pain is healing.  We go together.  We face all this together.  We will get where we are going together.  Of that I am sure and have complete confidence.

lovingpet

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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:54:41 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You guys are reversing it.  I'm not saying the first time isn't special.  I'm saying the second, third, etc times are no LESS special just because it's not "the first."



I am not saying that other times are not special... but there is something unique to the first time that is never the same. I remember very very few times with alandra in a sexual way. But our first time together is to this day crystal clear, just as it's is crystal clear the first time I was with Kyra.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:57:44 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I hate the idea of being pretensious.  It really isn't my way at all.  Maybe there was something wrong with my request or with the way I am thinking about this.

Yup, that. *laughs* In my entirely NOT humble opinion, you're both being freakin idiots (and I say that in a humorously friendly and caring way). See your cmail.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 10:58:15 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

but there is something unique to the first time that is never the same


Absolutely.  But in this situation, the collar was put on for the first time as a temporary collar.  It's not the same as having a collar put on as a permanent collar, so the first time remains.

As I said in my initial reply, a lot of this depends on whether the master views this as an isolated choice or as something to be included with the entire collar symbology he has.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 11:11:07 AM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

It just might be that they will eventually get to where he wants them to be. The unfortuanate fact to me, is that he indeed has dimished the experience of wearing that slave collar the first time she puts it on if that indeed ever occurs. The question becomes did wearing the play collar become necessary to get her to the point of wanting the slave collar. I don't believe it was. If it was then I will eat the crow, but she will have to justify for me why it was necessary. What she couldn't get any other way but by wearing that play collar.


This is kind of interesting and it lead my brain around to your comment about the wedding dress.  The fact of the matter is that I didn't go to a dress shop, pick one out that looked nice on the hanger, and tell them to wrap it up for me.  I tried it on.  I didn't just try it on once either.  It wasn't a perfect fit right off the hanger and it would have been a disaster to have found that out attempting to ready myself for the wedding.  It was ill fitting, but still I could see its potential and how right it would be for me with those adjustments made.  Then there was also the bridal photo shoot.  For goodness sakes, I went through all the motions.  I had my hair and make up professionally done.  I put on every article of clothing I would have on for the ceremony in a couple weeks.  Why?  So I could see how it all went together.  Did the veil really meet up with the style of the dress and did my hair come far enough around my face to hide the fact that one of my earlobes is higher than the other from the pictures?  Things like that.  It also allowed me to experience what it was like to walk, stand, sit, and even breathe inside that dress.  Given that it was a dress weighing in excess of 30 pounds and close fitting, there was a lot to get used to and I could have been right much of a clutz without that dress rehearsal prior. 

The long and short of it is that there are some things you can only prepare for by experiencing.  Consider it a practice lap if you will.  What was it like to him and inside my own head to be collared, even if only for the night?  How did interactions with each other or others deepen or change?  What will be different when this isn't a moment in time, but a lifetime?  Does it feel natural?  Forced?  Flat out fake?  Is it something that felt right and that he wanted even more than before?  Is it something that felt right and that I want even more than before?  No, there's never going to be another first time...to wear a collar for the first time.  There also will never be another moment where "a" collar becomes "his" collar and "the" collar because we have made it so.  I don't know how I might feel about this in the future.  I enjoyed the experience greatly (obviously LOL).  That's as far as I can see from here.

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.


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RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 11:33:50 AM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet


This is kind of interesting and it lead my brain around to your comment about the wedding dress.  The fact of the matter is that I didn't go to a dress shop, pick one out that looked nice on the hanger, and tell them to wrap it up for me.  I tried it on.  I didn't just try it on once either.  It wasn't a perfect fit right off the hanger and it would have been a disaster to have found that out attempting to ready myself for the wedding.  It was ill fitting, but still I could see its potential and how right it would be for me with those adjustments made.  Then there was also the bridal photo shoot.  For goodness sakes, I went through all the motions.  I had my hair and make up professionally done.  I put on every article of clothing I would have on for the ceremony in a couple weeks.  Why?  So I could see how it all went together.  Did the veil really meet up with the style of the dress and did my hair come far enough around my face to hide the fact that one of my earlobes is higher than the other from the pictures?  Things like that.  It also allowed me to experience what it was like to walk, stand, sit, and even breathe inside that dress.  Given that it was a dress weighing in excess of 30 pounds and close fitting, there was a lot to get used to and I could have been right much of a clutz without that dress rehearsal prior. 


and these are all valid except.. but we are not really talking about a wedding dress are we. We are talking more in line with a wedding ring. We are talking about all that it means to have that wedding band on... both the responsibility and committment to uphold. Trying it is not going to make that responsibility and commitment change or become easier. Yes, the ring looks wonderful on the hand and maybe I will have a different braclet. But those are the issues that you struggling with. The are much deeper and as you said... they relate more to how you see yourself than how he sees you. He already sees you as his slave but to make it complete... you need to acknowledge it from some where within one self.

This is the problem with analogies, the are only good to convey a particular point but the don't relate the complete situation and none of the analogies are going to relate your complete situation on little slivers of it.


quote:


The long and short of it is that there are some things you can only prepare for by experiencing.  Consider it a practice lap if you will.  What was it like to him and inside my own head to be collared, even if only for the night?  How did interactions with each other or others deepen or change?  What will be different when this isn't a moment in time, but a lifetime?  Does it feel natural?  Forced?  Flat out fake?  Is it something that felt right and that he wanted even more than before?  Is it something that felt right and that I want even more than before?  No, there's never going to be another first time...to wear a collar for the first time.  There also will never be another moment where "a" collar becomes "his" collar and "the" collar because we have made it so.  I don't know how I might feel about this in the future.  I enjoyed the experience greatly (obviously LOL).  That's as far as I can see from here.

lovingpet


I bolded the most important point that you shared here. This is key. Your right sooner or later the only way you are going to beable to do is experience it. So far you actually haven't experienced it. A practice lap is not an experience. Because in short you didn't actually make a commitment to the experience. You tried on the dress put on the wedding ring. But your heart and mind didn't commit yourself to the experience of actually being married. But you did pretend what it would be like. The key word being...'pretend' or to use your words 'practice' When you make the committment to yourself... it's not longer practice. It changes and as you so wisely said.

quote:

The long and short of it is that there are some things you can only prepare for by experiencing.


in the end... being a slave is not something you can prepare for.. it's something you experience! The question is... do you want the experience and all the risks and pleasures that may come with it?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 11:38:28 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

but there is something unique to the first time that is never the same


Absolutely.  But in this situation, the collar was put on for the first time as a temporary collar.  It's not the same as having a collar put on as a permanent collar, so the first time remains.

As I said in my initial reply, a lot of this depends on whether the master views this as an isolated choice or as something to be included with the entire collar symbology he has.



I agree with you... except... I don't see this as them being temporary. This is not a girl that he is sees as temporary far from it. For him to look upon her with any collar that is temporary would require him to change is complete view of her. I don't see that happening at this present time.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 12:21:44 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

OK, with this one, I'm going to be a rebel and argue vehemently against both LadyPact and KoM... a thing which is in and of itself interesting since I can't remember the last time I disagreed significantly with either of you two.


It has been some time.  I can definitely say that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I actually don't have a problem with the asking. It seems to be you where rather honest with the reason's for the wanting. I do have a problem with the giving... because the more I read... the more I preceive a lowering of the bar by him.

quote:

Yup, you and I are agreed that the asking is fine. I'm not willing to go so far as your second statement though. There is just way too little information and I've heard too much that is sensible and rational about this guy up until now. Real life.... at least the real life that I inhabit, tends to be highly nuanced and I'm not going to be second guessing such an ambiguous situation based upon so little information.

I want to be very fair about this.  Please note that in My earlier reply that I didn't say that her Master didn't do the right thing.  I said it was a different choice than I would have made.  I do think we agree that there is only so much that a person can put into an original post.  There is no way to write up on a message board every influence and interaction between two people to even present the situation.  Can you imagine how long that would take?

I am also in agreement with you that the asking was fine.  Oh, this whole thing would have gone a lot worse in My house had she not asked.  Frankly, the word 'shitstorm' comes to mind.


quote:

Insofar as this business of "lowering the bar".... pfffft. What bar? There's some bar somewhere? When did this become a competition? Are we scoring? What did the East German judge give? I just don't see it in that context at all. I see two mature, competent individuals struggling to achieve a very difficult goal... together. Me personally, I don't give a rats ass if the bar moves up, down, and sideways during that struggle... all I care about is whether they make progress -- together. And you know what? Even after she gets this "real collar", the struggle isn't going to end. I don't know how other people do it, but in my marriage, the "bar" is not so clearly defined, but it very clearly does move up over time. When we get good at some level, I make the goal harder. Things that challenge Carol and I now would not even have been on the radar map a year ago.


Jeff, I'm going to call you on this.

One of the things that I truly admire and respect about many of your writings here is that you do have a very clear bar.  You know exactly what it means to you to call Carol your slave and you know exactly what you expect from her (and you) for that term to fit.  You've even included in your comments here from time to time that, if your expectations of the dynamic were not being met, you would cease to call your situation M/s.  That, My friend, is a bar.

So, let's take that a step farther.  Let's suppose that by the criteria that has been set by you, Carol is not reaching what you believe determines the definition of yours to be your slave.  Yet, along comes some social occasion which is very important to her.   For the course of that evening, do you give her permission to introduce herself as your slave?  After which, of course, the next day you go back to whatever term you've established for her, since the truth of the matter is that, in your view, she's not being your slave.  It's just for the course of an evening, right?  That word is just something she can put on and take off for this special occasion.

quote:

Finally, to address the question of reducing the value of some later collaring. In my own little corner of reality, Carol being my slave is an ongoing wondrous delight. It changes and morphs over time. There's been a lot of two steps forward and one step back stuff. But what has been consistently true through all of it is that it has been magical. What makes it magical is not the collar around her neck. It's the union between us. How exactly does one reduce the value of that? For us at least, not a single one of the various struggles, stumbles, wins and losses along the path up until now has in any way lessened what we have. Good lord! They were the path! By definition they are to be cherished.

It's very easy to reduce value.  All it takes is to settle for less.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Claiming and Acknowledgement - 5/19/2010 12:24:26 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

For him to look upon her with any collar that is temporary would require him to change is complete view of her.


I disagree.  A symbol does not control or define the person or relationship. 

It MAY change his view of her IF he views this incident as connected to his other feelings and views on collars as he's made known previously.  It certainly wouldn't if he views it as an isolated special case disconnected from that.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 80
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