RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/22/2010 9:18:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967



I cannot own a automatic rifle, or a silenced rifle without expressed consent of the federal government, I'd say that's also shitting all over the second amendment.



Why not get a tank? Or a SAM? You are an idiot birther, douchebag.




housesub4you -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/22/2010 9:21:00 PM)

I think it is funny, no wait sad how many people in the GOP believe that no one who supports the GOP takes any aid for the government, perhaps they should look at the unemployment rates in GOP districts, they see something they do not want to see,

I make this statement after hearing for years how (from GOP supporters) no one who belives in the free market would accept government money and the sad ting is the very people who told them this accept billions like BP,




rulemylife -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/22/2010 9:59:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I was looking here in the thread for good links on the subject but found none. So HERE is a good one that explains a lot about both sides of the argument.

Butch


No it doesn't.

Are you kidding me, the Heritage Foundation?

All it does is make the expected conservative argument that somehow the Fourteenth Amendment doesn't really mean what it says.

It never ceases to amaze me that conservatives find the Constitution to be more sacred than the Bible except when it does not fit their agenda.



14th Amendment | LII / Legal Information Institute

14th Amendment

Amendment XIV

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.







tazzygirl -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/22/2010 10:03:41 PM)

quote:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


kdsub

The reason why this doesnt cover diplomats is because of diplomatic immunity means they do not fall under US jurisdiction.

Its really not that hard a concept... unless you want it to be.




AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/22/2010 10:09:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967



I cannot own a automatic rifle, or a silenced rifle without expressed consent of the federal government, I'd say that's also shitting all over the second amendment.



Why not get a tank? Or a SAM? You are an idiot birther, douchebag.



And why exactly shouldn't I get a Tank or a SAM (Since there are nearly 100 different Military uses of the Acronym SAM, I will assume you mean a Surface to Air Missile) But a serious question why exactly shouldn't I have one. Why exactly is the major issue with seriously destructive things? I may not be able to program a Land Rover to fly to your house and blow up but I can certainly drive it through your home.

Last time I checked the numbers on people who use Legally Gotten weapons to commit a crime was so small as to make it impossible to make it a Statistic, and of the Major Crimes committed with Automatic weapons in the US in the last 10 years of the Legally Registered ones 2 were committed by police officers who were part of a Elite Crew of Officers.

If I have to worry about Rogue Police officers, That the Majority of the illegal guns in this country are used by drug cartells of which the DEA is fighting a Losing battle, when holesom places have a 200% increase in Heroin and Illegal Firearm seives in a single year...... can you please tell me why I should not own a Tank, or a SAM. At least then I would make it known that I own them and maybe they think twice before fucking with this whackjob gun nut.

What is the big issues with guns especially those that people want to own legally, What is the worry of a person who owns a gun legally?

QSM




popeye1250 -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 1:42:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

People without status cannot get welfare benefits, and if they put themselves before government agencies, they expose themselves to removal by ICE.

------------

MYTH #3: The nation spends billions of dollars on welfare for undocumented immigrants.

FACTS: To the contrary, undocumented immigrants are not eligible to receive any "welfare" benefits and even legal immigrants are severely restricted in the benefits they can receive.

As the Congressional Research Service points out in a 2007 report, undocumented immigrants, who comprise nearly one-third of all immigrants in the country, are not eligible to receive public "welfare" benefits -- ever.

Legal permanent residents (LPRs) must pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems for approximately 10 years
before they are eligible to receive benefits when they retire. In most cases, LPRs can not receive SSI, which is available only to U.S. citizens, and are not eligible for means-tested public benefits until 5 years after receiving their green cards.

A 2007 analysis of welfare data by researchers at the Urban Institute reveals that less than 1 percent of households headed by undocumented immigrants receive cash assistance for needy families, compared to 5 percent of households headed by native-born U.S. citizens.

A 2007 analysis of U.S. Census data by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities makes clear that it is the U.S.-born, U.S.-citizen children of undocumented immigrants who are eligible for programs such as Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program
(SCHIP). The analysis found that, between 1995 and 2005, the share of low-income, non- citizen immigrant children (either undocumented or legally present) who received Medicaid or SCHIP dropped from 36 percent to 30 percent.



Cloudboy, one word, "California."




domiguy -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 2:26:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967



I cannot own a automatic rifle, or a silenced rifle without expressed consent of the federal government, I'd say that's also shitting all over the second amendment.



Why not get a tank? Or a SAM? You are an idiot birther, douchebag.



And why exactly shouldn't I get a Tank or a SAM (Since there are nearly 100 different Military uses of the Acronym SAM, I will assume you mean a Surface to Air Missile) But a serious question why exactly shouldn't I have one. Why exactly is the major issue with seriously destructive things? I may not be able to program a Land Rover to fly to your house and blow up but I can certainly drive it through your home.

Last time I checked the numbers on people who use Legally Gotten weapons to commit a crime was so small as to make it impossible to make it a Statistic, and of the Major Crimes committed with Automatic weapons in the US in the last 10 years of the Legally Registered ones 2 were committed by police officers who were part of a Elite Crew of Officers.

If I have to worry about Rogue Police officers, That the Majority of the illegal guns in this country are used by drug cartells of which the DEA is fighting a Losing battle, when holesom places have a 200% increase in Heroin and Illegal Firearm seives in a single year...... can you please tell me why I should not own a Tank, or a SAM. At least then I would make it known that I own them and maybe they think twice before fucking with this whackjob gun nut.

What is the big issues with guns especially those that people want to own legally, What is the worry of a person who owns a gun legally?

QSM



So the DEA is fighting a losing battle, big deal. Why do you need a tank or a gun because of this...Are you a quiet, simple drug dealing man?

The problem is that most quiet, simple men are usually just one bad break away from becoming quiet, killing simple douchebags. If people had tanks and automatic weapons they would be showing up at crime sites.

Columbine would have been even more of a disaster if the quiet, simple parents would have had quiet, simple automatic weapons.

You need to get outside and not be so afraid. Say "hi" to your neighbors, they are not trying to kill you.




domiguy -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 2:28:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

People without status cannot get welfare benefits, and if they put themselves before government agencies, they expose themselves to removal by ICE.

------------

MYTH #3: The nation spends billions of dollars on welfare for undocumented immigrants.

FACTS: To the contrary, undocumented immigrants are not eligible to receive any "welfare" benefits and even legal immigrants are severely restricted in the benefits they can receive.

As the Congressional Research Service points out in a 2007 report, undocumented immigrants, who comprise nearly one-third of all immigrants in the country, are not eligible to receive public "welfare" benefits -- ever.

Legal permanent residents (LPRs) must pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems for approximately 10 years
before they are eligible to receive benefits when they retire. In most cases, LPRs can not receive SSI, which is available only to U.S. citizens, and are not eligible for means-tested public benefits until 5 years after receiving their green cards.

A 2007 analysis of welfare data by researchers at the Urban Institute reveals that less than 1 percent of households headed by undocumented immigrants receive cash assistance for needy families, compared to 5 percent of households headed by native-born U.S. citizens.

A 2007 analysis of U.S. Census data by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities makes clear that it is the U.S.-born, U.S.-citizen children of undocumented immigrants who are eligible for programs such as Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program
(SCHIP). The analysis found that, between 1995 and 2005, the share of low-income, non- citizen immigrant children (either undocumented or legally present) who received Medicaid or SCHIP dropped from 36 percent to 30 percent.



Cloudboy, one word, "California."


One name, "Howie Carr."




THELADY -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 8:49:53 AM)

boys, boys, Guns  is another thread!

The thread is anchor babies and it comes down to the law.

from the Wikipedia

the 14th admendment
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside
and the citizenship clause says
described  the clause as excluding American Indians who maintain their tribal ties, and “persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.
it further adds

The meaning was tested again in the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) regarding children of non-citizen Chinese immigrants born in United States. The court ruled that the children were U.S. citizens.[10] The difference between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants was not clear at the time of the decision of Wong Kim Ark.[11]



according to the law its anyone one born in the US is a citizen, but the clause exempted Indians, foreigners, aliens 
......and the supreme court said that did not apply to legal ailens, speaking of the Chinese who were here legally.

based on that I would say that babies born to illegal aliens are not afforded the privileges of citizenship. I don' t think it should be retroactive but the practice should be stopped.

I am not against immigrants, do it legally and welcome! This land was indeed built on the backs of the immigrants! They came out of tyranny  and enjoyed freedom as they helped build it!

people can deny that illegals cost the tax payers because they cant legally apply for aid, but I beg to differ.... they go to our schools, get reduced lunches, are enrolled in schip, use the emergency rooms, and take jobs our people could do.  yes I have heard it said our people don't want to do those jobs, but I remember when My nephew wanted to get into landscaping but it seemed all the jobs were taken, and of course most of the employees were Hispanic. I remember at the housing boom heyday, cleaning the new construction houses, the carpenters  and painters were all Hispanic, and American carpenters I knew were scrambling for jobs. And having worked with those carpenters and painters I know a lot of them do come over to work and send the money home and with plans to do so for a limited time.  how many of them paid taxes? how many were adding to our economy? how many had concerns for our communities?

I don't know how many, but I believe   that our borders should be secure( come on, the people who would do us harm, not most of the illegals, but the drug runners and radical terrorists that can just walk over, it is shameful! we deserve better protection!!) and
illegals should be returned home and amnesty for the ones with anchor babies under 18.

Why is it OK for Mexico to allow their police and army to demand papers of all foreigners at any time but its not OK for America? Why is it OK for  all other countries have immigration laws, and enforce them, but its not OK for the USA to protect their borders and laws?
HOW DOES PROTECTING OUR SOVEREIGNTY BECOME A DEBATE OF RACISM?





DomKen -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 8:54:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
according to the law its anyone one born in the US is a citizen, but the clause exempted Indians, foreigners, aliens  [/color]......and the supreme court said that did not apply to legal ailens, speaking of the Chinese who were here legally.

Bullshit. The court ruled US V Wong Kim Ark that he was a citizen.




THELADY -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:01:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
according to the law its anyone one born in the US is a citizen, but the clause exempted Indians, foreigners, aliens  ......and the supreme court said that did not apply to legal ailens, speaking of the Chinese who were here legally.

Bullshit. The court ruled US V Wong Kim Ark that he was a citizen.



Domken, you did it again,  I quoted Wikipedia as saying that the supreme court said that the exemptions do not apply to legal aliens! and you said "bullshit and the court ruled he as a citizen",,,,,,,or phrased another way ...the exemption did not apply to him!! .




rulemylife -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:08:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY

...I quoted Wikipedia as saying that the suprem
e court said that the exemptions do not apply to legal aliens! and you said "bullshit and the court ruled he as a citizen",,,,,,,or phrased another way ...the exemption did not apply to him!! .



Wikipedia often provides a good starting point but it is hardly an authoritative source as the entries are made by people like you and I who may or may not be publishing factual information instead of opinion.

Or, phrased another way, Wikipedia is often incorrect.




THELADY -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:08:27 AM)

It is sad domken, that twice,  the best argument u could come up with was to claim I miss quoted when I did not. 




tazzygirl -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:13:35 AM)

Ahem

quote:

Citizenship Clause
Main article: Citizenship Clause
There are varying interpretations of the original intent of Congress, based on statements made during the congressional debate over the amendment.[5] During the original debate over the amendment Senator Jacob M. Howard of Michigan—the author of the Citizenship Clause—described the clause as excluding American Indians who maintain their tribal ties, and “persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.” He was supported by other senators, including Edgar Cowan, Reverdy Johnson, and Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lyman Trumbull.[6] Howard further stated the term jurisdiction meant "the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now"[6] and that the United States possessed a “full and complete jurisdiction” over the person described in the amendment.[7][8][6] Other senators, including Senator John Conness,[9] supported the amendment, believing citizenship should cover all children born in the United States.

In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (1884), the clause's meaning was tested regarding whether it meant that anyone born in the United States would be a citizen regardless of the parents' nationality. In that case, the Supreme Court held that the children of Native Americans were not citizens, despite the fact that they were born in the United States.

The meaning was tested again in the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) regarding children of non-citizen Chinese immigrants born in United States. The court ruled that the children were U.S. citizens.[10]

The difference between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants was not clear at the time of the decision of Wong Kim Ark.[11] According to The Heritage Foundation, which maintains that Congress possesses the power to exclude children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents from U.S. citizenship by legislation, neither in that decision nor any subsequent case has the Supreme Court explicitly ruled on whether such children are entitled to birthright citizenship via the amendment,[12] although that has generally been assumed to be the case.[13] In some cases, the Court has implicitly assumed, or suggested in dicta, that such children are entitled to birthright citizenship: these include INS v. Rios-Pineda, 471 U.S. 444 (1985)[14] and Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982).[15]

Loss of U.S. citizenship is possible only under the following circumstances:

Fraud in the naturalization process. Technically, this is not loss of citizenship but rather a voiding of the purported naturalization and a declaration that the immigrant never was a U.S. citizen.
Voluntary relinquishment of citizenship. This may be accomplished either through renunciation procedures specially established by the State Department or through other actions that demonstrate desire to give up U.S. citizenship.[16]
For a long time, voluntary acquisition or exercise of a foreign citizenship was considered sufficient cause for revocation of U.S. citizenship.[17] This concept was enshrined in a series of treaties between the United States and other countries (the Bancroft Treaties). However, the Supreme Court repudiated this concept in Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967), as well as Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252 (1980), holding that the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment barred the Congress from revoking citizenship.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Now, to address the two parts of your post.

First, Native Americans...

quote:

Elk v. Wilkins
In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (1884), the Supreme Court denied the birthright citizenship claim of an American Indian. The court ruled that being born in the territory of the United States is not sufficient for citizenship; those who wish to claim citizenship by birth must be born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. The court's majority held that the children of Native Americans were

"no more 'born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' within the meaning of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment, than the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States of ambassadors or other public ministers of foreign nations."[26]
Native Americans were granted U.S. citizenship by Congress half a century later in the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924, which rendered the Elk decision obsolete.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States_of_America

The second, Wong Kim Ark

quote:

United States v. Wong Kim Ark
In the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), the Supreme Court ruled that a person who

is born in the United States
of parents who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of a foreign power
whose parents have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States
whose parents are there carrying on business and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity of the foreign power to which they are subject
becomes, at the time of his birth, a citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.
Although any language in Wong Kim Ark that suggests the Court's opinion and rationale could be expanded to include the children of illegal immigrants would be mere dicta as Wong's parents were in the country legally.[27] Children born to foreign diplomats or, hypothetically, to hostile enemy forces or born on U.S. territory while it is under the control of a foreign power, are not considered subject to U.S. jurisdiction and therefore are not citizens at birth.[28] The distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants was not clear at the time of the decision of Wong Kim Ark.[29]

The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the 14th Amendment,[30] although it has generally been assumed that they are.[27] When accorded automatic birthright citizenship based on birth on American soil, a newborn's status is generally unaffected by the legal status or citizenship of that individual's mother or father.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States_of_America

Im truly hoping this clears up some issues for you.




Musicmystery -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:15:44 AM)

quote:

Cloudboy, one word, "California."


popeye, one paragraph: California illustrates the insanity of governing by popular mandate. Voters pass propositions that sound good, and they defeat motions that increase their taxes or even allow for new borrowing. The result is a fiscal nightmare, where state agencies are forbidden to do the common sense measures any other agency would follow if it cost one penny more, and yet they are faced with mandated services and accommodations they must provide by law, while not only denied the funds to make those changes happen, but across the board cuts and hiring freezes. What's left is an unworkable disaster and a severe strain on services, one wrought primarily by proposition, not illegals.





DomKen -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:23:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY

It is sad domken, that twice,  the best argument u could come up with was to claim I miss quoted when I did not. 

WTF are you babbling about?
US v Wong Kim Ark is very clear. Ark was found to be a citizen.

From the ruling
quote:

Upon the facts agreed in this case, the American citizenship which Wong Kim Ark acquired by birth within the United States has not been lost or taken away by anything happening since his birth.





rulemylife -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:27:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

California illustrates the insanity of governing by popular mandate. Voters pass propositions that sound good, and they defeat motions that increase their taxes or even allow for new borrowing. The result is a fiscal nightmare, where state agencies are forbidden to do the common sense measures any other agency would follow if it cost one penny more, and yet they are faced with mandated services and accommodations they must provide by law, while not only denied the funds to make those changes happen, but across the board cuts and hiring freezes. What's left is an unworkable disaster and a severe strain on services, one wrought primarily by proposition, not illegals.



Direct votes on issues do have their problems, but are they any more problematic than elected representatives being lobbied by special interest groups they depend on for their re-elections?




Musicmystery -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:29:18 AM)

rule, one word: "California."




THELADY -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:32:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY

...I quoted Wikipedia as saying that the suprem
e court said that the exemptions do not apply to legal aliens! and you said "bullshit and the court ruled he as a citizen",,,,,,,or phrased another way ...the exemption did not apply to him!! .



Wikipedia often provides a good starting point but it is hardly an authoritative source as the entries are made by people like you and I who may or may not be publishing factual information instead of opinion.

Or, phrased another way, Wikipedia is often incorrect.



so true, had I not read the same things in other places I may not have used such a simple quote.......Have you anything that would negate what I have quoted?




kdsub -> RE: Author of Arizona immigration law wants to end birthright citizenship (5/23/2010 9:32:46 AM)

Here we go again arguing over law and Constitution when our opinions on the law mean nothing. Why don't we skip who is right and wrong according to the law and ask ourselves do we believe it wise and right that any child born on American soil should be afforded citizenship.

I say no it is not right or wise. There was a time in Americas past where we needed citizens to fill and work this great land area…that is not the case today especially in these tough economic times.

If I were to take my pregnant wife to France and she were to give birth I would not, and should not, expect my child to be a French citizen.

Now if I move to France …apply for and receive citizenship then yes my new born child should also be a citizen of France.

If an immigrant couple comes to the US and applies and is granted citizenship then their underage children should also be granted citizenship.

There is nothing sinister in my position not particularly patriotic just common sense. I am the result of immigrants to America and proud of it. My forefathers were invited to move to this country legally and took advantage of this invitation to build a new life. I am all for immigrants I believe it is what makes America great…but do it legally and with respect.

Butch




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