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SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 11:42:02 AM)
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quote:
Posts: 2833
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: online quote:
ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
However, there are great many masters and slaves who claim that in TPE a slave actually does not have a choice. S(he) must obey. S(he) is actually unable to disobey. S(he) is also unable to leave the relationship because his / her will and control is completely transfered to the Master or Mistress. In such situation we can no longer talk about consent because the slave lost the ability to disobey. Not because Master or Mistress prevent them from disobeying by threats or something like that, but because there is something inside them that simply prevents them from disobeying or leaving relationship, no matter what happens inside the relationship.
Well, you've gone a bit too far, but largely you describe my relationship (not a generic TPE relationship.. I only speak for myself and Carol here). Of COURSE there is some point at which Carol would say "wow, this is just wrong". That point, however, would require that she or I become radically different people than we are. I'm an engineer so I like to be precise. Honestly though, the people who say "no matter what" are not idiots. They just don't choose to spend a lot of neurons on "comet strikes the earth" type scenarios. And honestly, can you really fault them?
I can tell you the specific thing within Carol which would work against such thoughts. Carol has an extremely strong drive to please me. She also trusts and respects me a great deal. Accordingly, I can give her alternate ways to view her reality and she will adopt them. That's not magic. If you've ever had a class in philosophy from someone you really respect you've experienced the same thing. This just takes that to an extreme. Given that I can, in fact, alter her world view significantly, to a large degree change what she thinks of as fundamentally right and wrong, proper or improper, it makes sense to say that she's going to be OK with whatever happens inside the relationship because I make sure she's OK with it. For instance, Carol was wired strongly monogamously. She is not any longer. It's also worth noting that Carol never really wanted to be a slave. Yet now, deep inside her own self-image, she sees herself as owned property.
I completely agree with you that in such a scenario, talking about "consent" becomes ludicrous. That's why I don't really think in terms of consent any longer. The concept of "consent" just doesn't work for a couple like us. That doesn't mean that there isn't some sense of "right" and "wrong", just that "consent" is a poor tool for measuring that -- not in the (what I find to be ridiculous) consensual/non-consent way -- but as in the literal statement, "she doesn't consent".
As you pointed out in a previous post though, you'd really need to talk to Carol to figure out if she was a victim or not. More than talk to her really, you'd have to experience enough of her life, both past and present to understand whether she is growing and flourishing as a human being or withering and fading. Based upon such direct observation, you would come to whatever conclusions you do and then act or not as your own sense of honor and integrity dictated.
About the only mistake in all of this is that you need to be truly and really careful about reading some post or series of posts on the internet and then coming to such conclusions. I'm a pretty astute judge of human nature with roughly twice your experience practicing at it but I wouldn't find anywhere near enough hard data via in such communications to come to any conclusion along those lines. So here on the internet, I take 'em at face value. If they say they are happy, I default to the assumption that they are correct. If they say they are unhappy, I go with that. I don't see any other rational approach.
EDITED TO ADD:
And in the interests of fair play since I've been pretty frank negative about some of the opinions I noted in SocratesNot, I feel compelled to come to his defense on this one. Jeffff, he's pretty accurately summarized Carol's and my relationship. There was nothing asshole-ish in that particular comment. It does, in fact, apply to us at least. And Lally2, not that I disagree with your view of TPE, but it isn't how or why it happened with Carol and I. Again, I find SocratesNot to have pretty accurately encapsulated our reality. And really, the dropping of the whole "consent" thing IS a reasonable thing to worry about. I did. I might even go so far as to say I think I'm see him slowly expand his consciousness and realize the world is more complex than he thought.
Thank you for supporting me on some issues. But, I must ask you again. What you really are? A shaman? A wizard? A cult leader? A brainwasher?
You turned someone who didn't even want to be a slave into a slave. You changed the worldview and the hardwiring of a woman for 180°. How is this even possible?
If she never consented to become a slave, then how is this different from outright manipulation and abuse?
Also, do you consider yourself to be all-knowing and all-wise so that your worldview is always superior to Carol's? Or you think that you are WAY more intelligent than she is? So whatever you think is wrong in her likes, dislikes, tastes, attitudes, opinions, you can change just like that, even without her consent?
Sorry for being harsh, but this is just how I understand what you described about your relationship.
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