RE: The essence of tolerance

RE: The essence of tolerance (Full Version)

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TreasureKY -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 8:20:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot quote: I ran into one of those hard limits quite abruptly just recently when I tried to get her to stop being my slave. The problem was, I still wanted a slave. She knew that. So in her mind, that translated to, "Stop trying to be as perfect as you can be for the man you love." She had no trouble saying quite assertively "No." I effectively gave her a command which actually DID run against her nature. I gave that command repeatedly, forcefully, and with all the leadership skills I could muster over a period of 5 days. It was rejected flat out. I am 110% sure if you REALLY wanted to get her to stop being your slave, you would succeed. But you admited it, you still wanted her to be your slave - or in your words - quote: The problem was, I still wanted a slave. She knew that. . Actually, it seems that there are no hard limits for Carol. However, I am beginning to understand your relationship with Carol and why it works. I think that Carol is a type of person who is really a little challenged in some ways, so her life is actually WAY better if someone else is in charge of it, not she herself. I can imagine your relationship with Carol to be more or less the same as relationship of a parent to a 10-year-old child. I think you are wrong about beginning to understand. While Jeff and I have had a few discussions, I don't know Carol and can't speak for her. Her position as explained by Jeff, however, does resonate with me. Note that while I can explain my own behavior that may be similar to Carol's, that doesn't mean it applies equally to her. First, let me clarify that Firm is an egalitarian dominant. While he holds the final authority, I am not a silent partner. I do not call myself a slave and Firm does not refer to himself as a master. I make this distinction for the purpose of pointing out that the incident Jeff describes above could have very well been Firm and I, except for the fact that Firm has never indicated any desire to own a slave. If he did, I might very well find myself in the same position as Carol. Well, I do often find myself in a similar position, but not in regard to being a slave. Like Carol, I am also one who has a very strong desire to please my partner. Part of it is ego... not wanting to be thought of as any less than perfect. A great part of it is a natural tendency to develop deep emotional attachment to my loved ones to the point of sacrificing my own needs and desires. Essentially, I assume responsibility for the contentment of my partner where I can. I mean... who doesn't want their partner to be happy and content in their relationship? Who doesn't care whether their partner enjoys being with them? Of course, as a mature and reasonable person, I realize that I cannot be responsible for Firm's happiness in everything. I can, however, try to control myself and how I impact his happiness. If Firm doesn't want the added stress of hearing about my worries, I just keep my mouth shut. If Firm wants to enjoy some guilt-free lusting after other women, I just stifle any evidence of hurt feelings. If Firm wants to enjoy reading his book in peace, I just go find something else to do and leave him alone. If I didn't make these small "sacrifices", would Firm up and leave me? Probably not, but he'd also probably not be as happy in our relationship and enjoy being with me. And I honestly wouldn't want him to stay if he didn't enjoy being with me, anyway. Now I can't say I've ever faced any truly hard sacrifice, and I'm not perfect as it is, anyway. Firm is a very reasonable man and if he wasn't, we wouldn't be compatible and together in the first place. I doubt emotional blackmail would go over very well with me, any more than it would with him. If he did ever change his mind and decide he wants a slave or polygamy, it would be tough for me. As much as I'm driven to try to please Firm, I do have my limits, though I'm not even sure myself what those are. Nevertheless, I can see how Carol might have viewed losing her status with Jeff. As his desire remains the same, I would imagine she would see it as a failure on her part... and the very real possibility of having to live with him finding a new slave would be a constant reminder of that failure. Your assertion that Carol is challenged is completely unfair. Like me, she might be very well capable of taking care of herself. If there is any real challenge, it is for Jeff balancing out the desires of both partners for the benefit of their relationship as a whole.

SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 8:30:47 AM)
quote: And yet what you are doing is judging others' relationships to be wrong based on what you feel, the perfect example being this: OK I can't stop judging. The judging is the internal process that happens in my mind. I am simply unable to stop judging. If I stopped judging this would mean that I stopped thinking. The only thing I can do is to stop expressing my judgments publicly. For doing this I need a reason. There is argument FOR stopping expressing my judgments and this is that this may offend people. However, there are more arguments AGAINST stopping expressing judgments and they are: First, since I am not very respected in this community, it is more than likely that people will not be offended by my opinion at all. Also I am quite independent and unconcerned about what will people think of me. Second, there is no way for me to understand the essence of a relationship if I don't allow my judgments to be confronted with different kind of reasoning which would be provided by those people. This is something like Hegel's philosophy. You have a thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Synthesis is a result of the conflict of thesis and antithesis and is greater and more valuable then both of them. In this case the thesis would be my objections which are caused by a certain value system in my head. The antithesis would be different kind of reasoning that would try to invalidate my objections and that would be presented by these people. Finally, the synthesis would be both mine and their better understanding and appreciation of their relationship.

Andalusite -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 8:39:04 AM)
People who are deliberately rude in order to wind people up and put them on the defensive are known as trolls. If you actually have questions about someone's relationship, you should work on your communication skills to ask for clarification without being rude. If you aren't capable of that, then don't post anywhere on the internet about anything controversial.[:'(] Also, something may indeed be unhealthy or harmful for you to engage in, but not for a different person who has a different personality and set aof experiences. Nobody is trying to convince you to try anything, and it's perfectly reasonable to decide that something is unworkable for you even though it's hot.

SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 8:45:54 AM)
quote: People who are deliberately rude in order to wind people up and put them on the defensive are known as trolls. If you actually have questions about someone's relationship, you should work on your communication skills to ask for clarification without being rude. If you aren't capable of that, then don't post anywhere on the internet about anything controversial. Also, something may indeed be unhealthy or harmful for you to engage in, but not for a different person who has a different personality and set aof experiences. Nobody is trying to convince you to try anything, and it's perfectly reasonable to decide that something is unworkable for you even though it's hot. I agree completely. I know my communication skills sometimes suck and I will try to work on them. I am also aware that some things will never work for me despite being attractive. But still, I sometimes need to try to understand how this can work for them. Maybe I won't succeed in it, but I am still curious.

LadyPact -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 8:49:04 AM)
I think some of the above posters are right on the money. If you look carefully, I alluded to it in another one of your threads. Part of the problem that you are experiencing here, OP, is your style of asking questions when you want to discuss these matters. You do come across as rude. You ask, you get answers, and then continue to be so self absorbed in your opinions in a self righteous, condescending manner. The very issue with this is your own ignorance in many matters. Your absence of education in most of these topics screams because you lack any real life experience. You're never going to learn the entirety of BDSM or power dynamics by reading them on the net. There is too much of a disconnect because you have no real physical or emotional stimuli to include with the information you are getting. It is all very much one dimensional and the pieces of the puzzle that you are missing you are filling with your own pre-determined judgments, hypothesis, and fears. For those of us who have this as part of our lives, it can be very much like trying to explain grown up matters to a petulant child. In your lack of maturity and comprehension, you are so convinced that you are right that you continually frustrate those of us for who our living, breathing reality is what we wake up to every day. It honestly isn't your place to have objections to the way other people live if they don't effect you. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion and you are certainly free not to live your life in the same way. That's where your entitlement ends. You don't get to implement your standard on how other people live. You don't get to make that decision. They do. Why you can't understand this, I couldn't say. What I can say is this. I think part of your issue here is that your interest here probably leans more toward submissive than you would like to admit. It isn't the BDSM part that scares you. It has much more to do with the personal power that you could potentially, willingly give to someone else who would want to control you and that scares the shit out of you. I tend to think that, even though that might be something inside of you that you may want, you are frightened enough of it that you are bouncing around in your head every way that power might be used for corrupt purposes or ways that you might attempt to retain power so that you are still in control. I hate to tell you this, but you sound very much like many (this is especially true for males, btw, due to many external influences by society) submissives who are just starting out, who are about to put their foot out to take their first step on the path of submission, when they aren't even sure yet if they have accepted that part of themselves. Now, I could be off the mark a bit in My assessment. Still, even if I am, I think it would benefit you a great deal to direct a question to the s-types on these boards about their own personal path of submission. How they came to accept who they are and how they FEEL about their inner selves. Ask about the differences and growth that they have come to know between where they started out and where they are today, no matter how far along they are on their personal path. Do not argue. Do not challenge their beliefs. Do not attack. Simply listen. I promise you that you will learn something.

SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 8:50:52 AM)
quote: I think you are wrong about beginning to understand. While Jeff and I have had a few discussions, I don't know Carol and can't speak for her. Her position as explained by Jeff, however, does resonate with me. Note that while I can explain my own behavior that may be similar to Carol's, that doesn't mean it applies equally to her. First, let me clarify that Firm is an egalitarian dominant. While he holds the final authority, I am not a silent partner. I do not call myself a slave and Firm does not refer to himself as a master. I make this distinction for the purpose of pointing out that the incident Jeff describes above could have very well been Firm and I, except for the fact that Firm has never indicated any desire to own a slave. If he did, I might very well find myself in the same position as Carol. Well, I do often find myself in a similar position, but not in regard to being a slave. Like Carol, I am also one who has a very strong desire to please my partner. Part of it is ego... not wanting to be thought of as any less than perfect. A great part of it is a natural tendency to develop deep emotional attachment to my loved ones to the point of sacrificing my own needs and desires. Essentially, I assume responsibility for the contentment of my partner where I can. I mean... who doesn't want their partner to be happy and content in their relationship? Who doesn't care whether their partner enjoys being with them? Of course, as a mature and reasonable person, I realize that I cannot be responsible for Firm's happiness in everything. I can, however, try to control myself and how I impact his happiness. If Firm doesn't want the added stress of hearing about my worries, I just keep my mouth shut. If Firm wants to enjoy some guilt-free lusting after other women, I just stifle any evidence of hurt feelings. If Firm wants to enjoy reading his book in peace, I just go find something else to do and leave him alone. If I didn't make these small "sacrifices", would Firm up and leave me? Probably not, but he'd also probably not be as happy in our relationship and enjoy being with me. And I honestly wouldn't want him to stay if he didn't enjoy being with me, anyway. Now I can't say I've ever faced any truly hard sacrifice, and I'm not perfect as it is, anyway. Firm is a very reasonable man and if he wasn't, we wouldn't be compatible and together in the first place. I doubt emotional blackmail would go over very well with me, any more than it would with him. If he did ever change his mind and decide he wants a slave or polygamy, it would be tough for me. As much as I'm driven to try to please Firm, I do have my limits, though I'm not even sure myself what those are. Nevertheless, I can see how Carol might have viewed losing her status with Jeff. As his desire remains the same, I would imagine she would see it as a failure on her part... and the very real possibility of having to live with him finding a new slave would be a constant reminder of that failure. Your assertion that Carol is challenged is completely unfair. Like me, she might be very well capable of taking care of herself. If there is any real challenge, it is for Jeff balancing out the desires of both partners for the benefit of their relationship as a whole. Thank you very much for very thorough and intelligent explanation of your relationship. Could you please just answer me some questions. First, why do you think that Firm's happiness is more important than your happiness? Why are you willing to suffer and sacrifice in order to make him happy, even if you are not so happy and have hurt feelings. If you say that this is because you LOVE Firm, that's beautiful. But don't you think that you should also LOVE yourself? Even the Bible says: "Love your neighbor as yourself!" If you don't love yourself enough, how can you love others?

Jeffff -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:00:12 AM)
Have you ever been in a relationship?...... with a woman?... or a man if you are gay? Have you ever loved someone and had them love you back? Are you really 22? Can you really be THIS DENSE? Why are you such an asshole?

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:05:41 AM)
quote: First, since I am not very respected in this community, it is more than likely that people will not be offended by my opinion at all. Also I am quite independent and unconcerned about what will people think of me. Second, there is no way for me to understand the essence of a relationship if I don't allow my judgments to be confronted with different kind of reasoning which would be provided by those people. The trouble is that you are too busy judging to try and understand those relationships. You have admitted to not having actual experience in such relationships yet you continually post as if you do. How can you have opinions of any value of something you have never experienced? You are coming from the position of someone who has never experienced any of it offline and judging those of us who have. My suggestion is that you read and reread LadyP's excellent post and have a good think. Then spend time at a munch and actually get to know and learn from those who actually have such relationships. THEN come back here and post.

KatyLied -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:06:21 AM)
quote: Why are you willing to suffer and sacrifice in order to make him happy, even if you are not so happy and have hurt feelings. One reason may be that a dominant's eyes shine brightly when he is a witness to his submissives's sacrifice, suffering, and surrender. You sir, have much to learn.

SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:07:30 AM)
I had 2 girlfriends in my life, and I had crushes on several other girls. But I must admit that I haven't yet been deeply in love with someone, in sense of real, full blown love, not. But I hope, I will experience this soon. I wasn't particularly successful with girls, I must admit. I don't see why would this make me dense? Maybe just inexperienced, or emotionally immature, but not dense.

Jeffff -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:13:23 AM)
You are dense because after repeated threads you refuse to accept the fact that folks can be in a relationship that you just don't understand. You don't want to understand. Somewhere in America right now there are people who like oral sex is kinky and wrong. There are folks who think a woman on top is disgusting. You refuse to accept the fact that there are viable ways to love and care for another person that is out side of your experience. You continue to find subtle ways of insulting those folks. You... are an asshole

SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:21:05 AM)
quote: My suggestion is that you read and reread LadyP's excellent post and have a good think. Then spend time at a munch and actually get to know and learn from those who actually have such relationships. THEN come back here and post. The problem is that I live in Bosnia and Herzegovina. There are no such things as munches in my country. There aren't even pro-dommes. I actually know just one pro-domme with a dungeon in entire country. There are some prostitutes who work illegally and also provide domination if this is what the client wants. The only BDSM community in Bosnia and Herzegovina is virtual one. Only online. Even this community is extremely small and undeveloped. What is even worse, the overwhelming majority of population in my country is very closed-minded and even opposed to the idea of BDSM. When it comes to LadyP's post, I agree it is brilliant. And yes, it is true that there are some submissive tendencies in my personality, but I have other tendencies as well. I find submission sexy, that's true. But I also value independence even more, and this outweighs these submissive tendencies. And yet, there are some dominant tendencies too. The truth of existence of certain submissive tendencies in my personality does not mean that I'm going to become a submissive or live life of submission.

SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:25:22 AM)
quote: You are dense because after repeated threads you refuse to accept the fact that folks can be in a relationship that you just don't understand. This is not true. I accept that they can be in such relationship. The only problem is that I am trying and failing to understand relationships, not that I am denying the possibility of their meaningful existence.

Jeffff -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:28:10 AM)
Blow Me. Who says I never contribute seriously?

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:28:27 AM)
In that case, read what others have to say. When the urge to judge or offer opinions you don't have the experience to answer hits...STOP. Pull away from the computer until the urge passes, then ask non-judgemental questions. The people here (generally) don't mind answering questions as long as they are from people looking to learn rather than judge. Better yet, do a search on what you want to know then ask questions based on what you find. Note: this does NOT mean reviving a dead thread but rather referring to it.

TreasureKY -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 9:40:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot First, why do you think that Firm's happiness is more important than your happiness? Why are you willing to suffer and sacrifice in order to make him happy, even if you are not so happy and have hurt feelings. If you say that this is because you LOVE Firm, that's beautiful. But don't you think that you should also LOVE yourself? You are welcome. First thoughts, first. I've never really understood this imperative to "love yourself". What the heck does that mean? I'm not sure that I "love" myself. I do happen to like who I am and enjoy being me. I care very much about what happens to me and I try to make good decisions that will benefit me. Overall, my happiness is important to me, but when all is said and done, it is more important that I still like myself in the end. There is also the consideration that happiness doesn't always equal fun... sometimes we have to do things that are unpleasant or make sacrifices for the greater good. That is life. I don't neglect my own happiness in efforts to ensure Firm's. Believe me when I say that there is a very selfish element to submission. In addition to loving him, I derive great pleasure from pleasing Firm... but a very real part of that pleasure is in recognition and appreciation for my efforts. Habitually take me for granted or neglect my needs and I eventually lose the desire to please. Doesn't sound very magnanimous when you put it like that, but there you are; sometimes the truth hurts. Relationships aren't a one-way street. I'm also adult enough to recognize that sacrifices and hurt feelings are sometimes a necessary part of life. Ideally, sacrifices should be outweighed by benefit, though often times it requires the appropriate attitude. Attitude also plays a huge part in dealing with hurt feelings. Understanding intent, motivation and the difference in perception can help to forge an overall positive attitude that will allow hurt feelings to be easily brushed aside and forgotten. Of course the balance can be easily tipped leading to resentment and strife. That's why it is said that relationships take work. The real work for both partners is in self-awareness. I long ago adopted the truth that you cannot change other people and what they do... you can only change how you act and react. Each partner being aware of why they do what they do, say what they say, and how they impact the other, is key to keeping the balance.

kiwisub12 -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 10:05:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot The problem is that I live in Bosnia and Herzegovina. There are no such things as munches in my country. There aren't even pro-dommes. I actually know just one pro-domme with a dungeon in entire country. There are some prostitutes who work illegally and also provide domination if this is what the client wants. The only BDSM community in Bosnia and Herzegovina is virtual one. Only online. Even this community is extremely small and undeveloped. What is even worse, the overwhelming majority of population in my country is very closed-minded and even opposed to the idea of BDSM. When it comes to LadyP's post, I agree it is brilliant. And yes, it is true that there are some submissive tendencies in my personality, but I have other tendencies as well. I find submission sexy, that's true. But I also value independence even more, and this outweighs these submissive tendencies. And yet, there are some dominant tendencies too. The truth of existence of certain submissive tendencies in my personality does not mean that I'm going to become a submissive or live life of submission. OK - so we can assume that English isn't your first language? - in which case, the manner in which you ask questions probably can be forgiven. You should read my French!!!! Just as a matter of interest - why are you so adament about denying your feelings? Because you can't find a logical basis for them doesn't mean that they are evil, ugly or nasty. You won't find too many submissives who "know" why they are submissive, and you can probably find a couple that hate that they are, but on the whole the ones that i know who live as submissive are very happy people, not conflicted or confused. For myself when i began a relationship with my Sir, the thing that disturbed me most was my reaction to pain. Pain isn't supposed to be pleasurable - pain is supposed to hurt! It took me a year and my shrinks advice to get to a point where i didn't care why i enjoyed it, i just did. In the end, it doesn't really matter why we are the way we are with anything - why do i love chocolate for example - it just is. If it were illegal or making me miserable, i might try to investigate and settle the conflict, but some conflicts aren't worth the trouble. If the conflict isn't hurting anyone - including myself - then what the hell? Go with the flow and enjoy! Asking questions is great, but in the end, all questions can be answered by real life experience, and if you don't have a chance of that, then why are you bothering to worry about wheither you are submissive or not? Leave it alone, go on with your life and if you ever find a girlfriend who likes to spank or tie, enjoy the experience. It isn't rocket science - it's life.

kiwisub12 -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 10:10:13 AM)
As for independence and submission - what is independence? The ability to choose what you eat or wear or where you sleep? I am an independent person - i work full time in a demanding job, i care for my Sir, i pay the bills and the mortgage, i cook, clean and paint. I flew to New Zealand by myself without getting lost. I organise the hospice care for my Sir, and with all this i am submissive to my Sir. When he calls i go. The two aren't mutually exclusive! You can be independent in the things that matter to you, and still be in a submissive relationship and be happy.

NorthernGent -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 10:32:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomImus doesn't violate any major laws And what if a law is brought in forbidding your sexual activities because they are considered extreme?

DesFIP -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/23/2010 6:21:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I agree with you. I will take your advice and try to follow it in the future. My biggest problem is that I have a habit of stating my objections before asking questions. Now I will try to first ask questions, and only object later, and only if I really have to. I have a question for you - Would I be rude if I first asked some questions and then stated my objections? I mean, does stating objections at any time make you automatically a rude person? It isn't rude per se to state your objections. However it will prevent people from answering your questions. By stating your objections, you are telling us that you really don't want to learn, that you have already made up your mind negatively. And once you do that, the rest of us are not going to bother to try to get you to change it. By asking questions, by considering the various answers you have received at length, and only then, meaning after some days of considering and asking more questions to help you understand more fully, is it appropriate to thank people and say that you still don't believe you could participate in this activity. You are allowed to decide for yourself, you aren't allowed to decide for anyone else. But unless you can suspend your objections and have an open mind willing to learn then please don't waste our time. You could do many more productive things, like washing the dishes for your mother.

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