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ORIGINAL: beardsley

Ever since I first heard the Siren's Song of dominant women, I marvelled at the power of the response I felt. Long have I wondered - why was the desire I felt so strong? I have come to believe that males' urge for female domination stems in many cases from unresolved Oedipal desires.

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ORIGINAL: beardsley

What is happening, then, when an adult male submits to a woman? First, his emotions must make the identification of her with the maternal ideal. There must be enough matches between the would-be dominant female and the goal set up in his 2-year old (let's say) emotional structure. And there must be few enough mismatches that the identification of the potential domme with Mother is not cancelled out.

Second, the potential domme must encourage him to drop the trappings of male adulthood and move back into the being of the 2 year old. He must set aside enough his adult sense of self, his adult sense of what is socially acceptable, his adult sense of independence and self reliance. This can sometimes be a difficult step for him, as the gains of maturity were hard won during the struggles of adolescence. An uneasy tension may exist between his two-year old and his adult beings.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Without wishing to dismiss the position advanced by Beardsley entirely - always a dangerous thing to do for all the exceptions that may exist - I do not feel it accounts very well for the drives of the majority of submissive men.

I believe the majority seek an adult relationship - in fact a healthy relationship - with a woman and in this it is the (usually) subconcious acknowledgement of his destruction as an individual in joining with her that explains the displacement activity that is the ritual expression of this, combined with his (usually) subconcious innate resistance to being absorbed into a couple.

In order to account for his destruction he must project onto her the power to overcome him, even as his raging hormones are what drives him quite naturally to this healthy condition, and thereby be submitted to her.

As for men behaving like little boys - I note this most often in single males over 30 I have to say. Beardsley may have a point here in that what such men seem to be seeking is a female to look after them, like mommy. Their behaviour is a cry for female attention and should a female respond then they may look to her response as indicating whether she might be a suitable partner to absorb them into a couple. Because ultimately it is not domination from a woman they seek but a safe and sane woman to partner with.

E

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ORIGINAL: youascend

In all honesty I would be annoyed if someone were talking to me in a mothering / childishly reaffirming / "nurturing" way unless it was an obvious mockery.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

How I see it in the vanilla world is in a struggle, where women want a certain result out of men but feel frustrated as they won't obey them and therefore reverts to browbeating them like their mothers. If you want examples, look at many American sitcom of the last decade: Everybody Loves Raymond, The King of Queens, Family Man, Simpsons and many others to see how the wives are always "schooling" their husbands like hopeless children. I see some of my friends like this with their partners and I realise they are striving to get control over their man, but the bottom line is that he won't ever change and he has no desire to put her needs first nor is he interested in being in service to her. Those kind of men are indeed childish little boys and the women they are with let themselves be put in a mother position. The bottom line is that they want a partner, not a child.

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I think referring to subs as boys and girls is a way of asserting authority, Peon. Also, it's a carryover from leather culture. Me, I don't refer to my companions that way, but I'm a rebel!

More later tonight when I have the real computer to type on.

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ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
I think there's a little more to it than that.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
There's truth in that, I'm sure - I've read similar, before. It's interesting, also, because it fits in with my Grand General Theory about How D/s Works.

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Now the portrayal of men in pop culture really does seem to be showing men in this helpless childlike manner that just drives me crazy. Considering most of the women in these relationships come a cross as strong and independent and now are dealing with a extra child. Mostly I think that this is just pop culture, but I’m young so I may just be day dreaming. People are how they are, putting up with this type of behavior I just don’t understand. It would seem to be a lack of communication but if you’re just unhappy with who they are then just leave.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: youascend
In all honesty I would be annoyed if someone were talking to me in a mothering / childishly reaffirming / "nurturing" way unless it was an obvious mockery.

How do you feel about dommes' tendency to refer to submales as 'boys', then?

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ORIGINAL: porcelaine

LadyAngelika,

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the wives are always "schooling" their husbands like hopeless children.

Sadly enough many men have come to expect that and have a hard to relating to someone that doesn't do this. He has little concept on how to be "the man."

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So I see the woman as mother to her partner as a woman who has not only lost control of her man (or in this case boy) but as a woman who has lost control of who she is, a woman who wants to be fulfilled by a man.

I sat with a female dominant for four years. She would not mother me. Nor would she allow me to escape to that part of myself to deal or cope on any level. It was highly discouraged. Nurturing was provided with a nice balance of smackage for good measure. Mothering me would mean my level of responsibility and accountability would be severely diminished. She wanted a functioning adult not a puppet.

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How can I depend on a man to be in service to me if he's going to be a child who can't take responsibility for things? Who can't be proactive? Who's going to be sitting there helpless waiting for instruction?

It's a very codependent setup. I remember we had a huge discussion about this. Especially in terms of that part of me. I couldn't feed it and she was aware of that. My attempts to do so were abysmal and she called me on it. I don't think she stamped it out, but she made me realize my behavior was self-destructive and I was bringing hardship on myself with bad decisions. Regardless of the other party involved, I chose. That prevents the poor me victim bs some spin.

From what you've shared, you're dealing with two messed up peas in a pod. Although the dominant sets the tone, she uses his antics as validation for her own. Her behavior is necessary because he's this way. I suspect she has a hard time confronting her issues in all honesty. If you turn it around it is no different from men that keep a woman in a certain way. He needs her to be in that place otherwise his nothingness is very glaring.

I'll add on something extra and it wasn't at the hands of a dominant. I have/had friends that mothered me. I don't think their intentions were malicious. They simply abhorred the idea of seeing me hurt. They'd move heaven on earth to prevent that from happening and when it did they were right there to help. Years ago when a relationship ended my previous owner told me outright that I'd be okay. He said my friends would make certain of it. He was correct. They did.

But at some point you have to stand. Even when your legs wobble a tad. Otherwise you never learn how to do so and you're always looking to someone else to make it better. But for that to work it takes two. We see them differently but they really aren't. They simply manifest the neediness in different ways.

I hope that made sense. I'm caffeinated. :)

~porcelaine

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As sterile as it may be, I find the best comparisons to what have been good Femdom relationships for me have been those that mirror good boss/employee relationships.  There are some employees that do a pretty good job but need a LOT of direction - as long as they have a list in hand, given by me, and constant check-ins, they get the work done.   There are other employees that do a good job and are more self sufficient, but they need a lot of nurturing and reassurance, and are slowed down by needing a pat on the back --- this is ok, but not in such high quantities that it prevents me from doing my job.

Then there's the dream employee. He or she is very efficient and a self starter, and while they really pride themselves on doing a good job, they are able to tell they are doing a good job so they need a smaller amount of coddling.  They also think ahead and try to do things they know will make my job easier.  They are not afraid to take calculated risks.  They adapt processes so they don't have to be told three times to do something or have it show up on a list every day - they figure out what needs to be done.  They are very efficient, but they never start thinking the are the boss - they know I am the boss.  Together we make a great team and I may come to rely on them a lot - but at the end of the day, we both know who is boss, and will always be boss. This is the ideal femdom/malesub dynamic for me.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha


The other weird analogy I adopt, outside of boss/employee, is SuperHero / Evil Vixen Bad Nemesis.  That is to say - my sub is super competent and smart and sexy, but I have kryptonite, and restraints, and even though he wants to stand up to me, he both fears and adores me. Oh well I guess that's mostly in the bedroom :)


Akasha