|
SocratesNot -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/29/2010 10:55:27 PM)
|
When it comes to slave's entitlement to know, I agree with Jeff, that it is ridiculous talking about rights and entitlements.
However, I think that it is necessary for a slave to know about the things that are of vital importance to their relationship or life.
Withholding such information from slaves can be dangerous both for slaves and for masters.
That's why I think that barelynangel's stance that the slave "has absolutely no entitlement to know anything whatsoever" to be dangerous and extreme.
In theory this could work only if we suppose that the Master is flawless. However, no one is flawless, so this does not work.
Also, barelynangel too often says that the slave has no control of her life.
I think this is also a dangerous concept.
While I agree that she has to make a very wise and careful decision whose collar to take and whether to take it at all, I also think,
that even if this decision is perfectly wise, she has not lost all control of her life.
Her master can go nuts or change his personality due to many different factors, including mental disease, and if she sees such tendencies developing she must be able to leave him or at least to stop being slave and to take charge over relationship.
So, theory is one thing and the real life is another. While in theory barelynangel's concepts might seem hot and attractive, in real life it's sometimes hard to implement them.
I think it is not very wise to give advice to people based only on theory or on your own experience.
People can have totally different experiences from barelynangel, so what worked in her relationship might not work for everyone.
Focusing on concepts such as "slaves not in control of their life" and "slaves not entitled to know anything" can be dangerous.
Because these concepts are dangerous by their very nature.
However, I agree completely with Jeff's opinion and with BitaTruble's opinion, so I will quote them here, because I think people could benefit
from their very wise words:
So this is from Jeff:
quote:
I'll tell you my opinion. Pretty much the moment you start thinking in terms of "rights" you're screwed. Where exactly do these "rights" come from? Who enforces them? Why do they exist?
I prefer to think in terms of "that which works" and "that which doesn't work". Carol "knows" when knowing is important to success -- which is pretty much all the time for me. Honestly, my firm opinion as a leader is that plans work a whole lot better when those you expect to carry out the plan have clue what's going on. I prefer to succeed so I make sure Carol is in the loop. It has nothing to do with her "right" to know. It has to do with pragmatic aspects of leading.
There are also very rare times when I do not brief Carol fully on some scheme I'm hatching. In those cases, her "not knowing" is critical to the success of the plan.
I think we can all spend forever discussing these "rights" that people have and all of that talk is worth exactly nothing. I don't even have the "right" to expect her obedience. All I have is whatever obedience my own leadership skills and personality can command. She doesn't have the "right" to expect me to love her. All she has is the ability to make herself lovable by me... or not.
Maybe what I'm saying is that I believe in personal responsibility more than I believe in some handouts from some un-named source of "rights".
Which I agree with almost completely.
And this is from BitaTruble:
quote:
I didn't miss your point at all, Angel. In fact, I agreed with you but since you did not address the consequences in your post, I addressed them in mine. I don't care what you said in your post.. I addressed what you didn't say. Plain and simple. I am very well aware that you were held in slavery, mastered, for 8 years. I've been doing the same thing for 15 and I'm still doing it. I think it's important that many voices are put forth, not just the parts that may apply to a single side of the kneel or a single way of life. My opinion only. Others may feel differently. The diversity of opinions gives people that may be new or reading for the first time more choices, more options and more information rather than one or two narrow boxes based on the single opinion of a single person about a single way to live as a slave. Your perspective is Gorean, mine is not and it has nothing to do with finding excuses for a woman.. that's a ridiculous notion and obviously means you failed to understand the aim and purpose of *my* point. It has to do with the reality of living together in M/s when only one partner is making the choices of what to communicate.
A man may decide that his slave does not need knowledge of a certain area and if he is perfect and never misjudges or miscalculates, it's all well and good. Personally, I don't know anyone like that, so putting forth that there may be consequences to keeping things close to the chest is okay to do in my book. It is the dominants perogative to choose which information to impart to their slave.. and, say for example, they choose *not* to share something of vital importance, there are consequences to that. Maybe you think all men are brillant and don't need to hear something like that.. but if you have read any of the recent threads started by the "dominants" around here lately, many of them seem to be pretty clueless to me and could use some sound advice from someone who actually does have their shit together, lives as a slave, has a successful, long term relationship that has always had a power based core.
You put your voice out there, I put mine out there. People can pick and choose which parts they like or discard them all together. That's their choice. Without diverse and flavored opinions, what point to discussion boards at all?
I also agree with Bita's viewpoint.
Finally I will put the concept of entitlement aside, because it is very abstract concept.
In plain simple language I'll tell you: For the relationship to be healthy and successful it is absolutely necessary that the slave knows things that are of vital importance
to her life. It would be the best if the Master choose to tell such things to slave of his own volition. But if he chooses not to tell it, then the slave can push him
to tell such things or even leave the relationship if she suddenly realizes that some of Master's plans are totally incompatible with everything she is as a person
or that his plans would have harmful effects on her health or on the relationship itself.
|
|
|
|
