RE: Slavery is bullshit (Full Version)

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SocratesNot -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:29:23 PM)

quote:


Real authority is not "respected". That's like saying "I respect the law of gravity". Yeah, booyah. But whether or not you respect it, if you walk off the edge of a cliff, you're going to fall. If authority needs to be "respected", then it doesn't exist. Perhaps more accurately, only positional authority needs to be respected and I don't count boxes on org charts as real authority or real power.


Jeff, I think that the authority of a person can only be compared with the gravity if such person has telekinetic abilities.
So, in other cases, authority indeed needs to be respected in order to be obeyed.




laurell3 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:31:00 PM)

subtee you're making me dizzy[;)]




SimplyMichael -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:35:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:


Real authority is not "respected". That's like saying "I respect the law of gravity". Yeah, booyah. But whether or not you respect it, if you walk off the edge of a cliff, you're going to fall. If authority needs to be "respected", then it doesn't exist. Perhaps more accurately, only positional authority needs to be respected and I don't count boxes on org charts as real authority or real power.


Jeff, I think that the authority of a person can only be compared with the gravity if such person has telekinetic abilities.
So, in other cases, authority indeed needs to be respected in order to be obeyed.


Respect means many things

I am VERY respectful of police officers when dealing with them in an official capacity but inside I am feeling nothing but loathing and disrespect

I am respectful of you because if I post what I really think, the enforces of that respect, the "mods" would unload on me.

I respect Leadership527 because I have known him for years in person (has it really been that long?) and that respect does NOT come from an external source, I don't HAVE to respect him (which I do a police officer or they will "rodney king" your ass) but I CHOOSE to respect him.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:36:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
In all this time, I had no idea that you played.  LOL.


I almost named my son Gygax, but then it was a bit over the top. ;) I cannot go home without my kids setting up a game for us to kill, at minimum, a full weekend when I'm there.. and, they have brainwashed the grandkids into playing as well. My oldest grandson got a D&D group (complete with requisite geeky teacher leader) started at school! My daugher is married, but my son is not allowed to date anyone who won't table top it with us. ::grins::

I actually am sort of feeling bad for making my smart ass joking post about a stalker Ex from high school that was committed. (all of which I was not serious). I used to AD&D a lot when I was younger.




Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:37:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Slavery in the old days was about society, through laws and whatnot, forcing you to respect the authority of your master, who might be a craven old man, a juvenile teenager, or a toothless old crone.



This is exactly why I don't like the "slavery" word.
Not because I have something against the concept as it is often used by couples like Jeff and Carol, but because too many people still use the term to reflect what it used to mean in a legal context.

Legal slavery does not require any leadership. All you have to do to own and dominate a legal slave is buy them.
Then you dish out orders and simple expect them to be obeyed.
Even when there isn't a hint of authority present, and the slave has to force themselves to obey and to "respect" your authority while secretly thinking about that knife they're going to plant in your back that same night, you can under legal slavery still expect them to at least half-ass carry out your orders.

The type of BDSM slavery that leads to harmonious relationships is totally different from that, because it depends on nothing but the dominant's ability to create and environment of authority that is as natural to the relationship as gravity is to the world.
To do this, the dominant has to have their own bases covered and actually create a continuous situation in which obedience is simple the better choice, for both parties involved.

A woman like Carol, who finds the right man obeys simple because she would be an idiot not to obey him.
Doing what he wants will eventually always yield the results she wants, which creates a situation in which compliance becomes as natural as oxygen.
But the reason this is true is because of the kind of man Jeff is, and because of his ability to create a setting in which obedience is always the best choice for her.

If the guy doesn't have his shit together, but still expects the "slave" to obey out of nothing but "respect" for his non-existing authority, and the promises she made to obey him, then he's delusional. The day will come where she'll realize that disobedience yields better results then obedience... and at that point, any sane rational being will flip him and all his blustering commands the bird and walk off.






SimplyMichael -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:38:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


If the guy doesn't have his shit together, but still expects the "slave" to obey out of nothing but "respect" for his non-existing authority, and the promises she made to obey him, then he's delusional. The day will come where she'll realize that disobedience yields better results then obedience... and at that point, any sane rational being will flip him and all his blustering commands the bird and walk off.



There is a word for that, we call it "Gor"...




SocratesNot -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:41:23 PM)

quote:

Respect means many things

I am VERY respectful of police officers when dealing with them in an official capacity but inside I am feeling nothing but loathing and disrespect

I am respectful of you because if I post what I really think, the enforces of that respect, the "mods" would unload on me.

I respect Leadership527 because I have known him for years in person (has it really been that long?) and that respect does NOT come from an external source, I don't HAVE to respect him (which I do a police officer or they will "rodney king" your ass) but I CHOOSE to respect him.


All that you said is true, but still in order to be obeyed, authority must be respected, no matter what is the reason why you respect it. (your own high esteem, threat, expectation of society, etc.)




Jeffff -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:42:24 PM)

No... consequences maybe, but authority does not need to be respected.




laurell3 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:43:32 PM)

I obey people every day that I have no respect for, it's called work.




Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:44:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


If the guy doesn't have his shit together, but still expects the "slave" to obey out of nothing but "respect" for his non-existing authority, and the promises she made to obey him, then he's delusional. The day will come where she'll realize that disobedience yields better results then obedience... and at that point, any sane rational being will flip him and all his blustering commands the bird and walk off.



There is a word for that, we call it "Gor"...




LOL

On that point I'm going to have to agree and disagree with you.
You're totally right that there are a lot of "Gorean" men to expect obedience to come from such a fashion.

But not all of them.
My former Master most definitely doesn't fit the definition of what I've described above.
On the contrary even, he was very good at creating an environment in which obedience became as natural and logical as oxygen.
The reason we split has got nothing to do with his ability, or lack thereof to create a setting in which his authority became a natural thing... other external factors played a role, and I'm still convinced that if those hadn't been in place, we'd have been together "till death do us part".

So while on a whole you're right, you're not right in an absolute sense. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s3.gif[/image]






SimplyMichael -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:45:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

Respect means many things

I am VERY respectful of police officers when dealing with them in an official capacity but inside I am feeling nothing but loathing and disrespect

I am respectful of you because if I post what I really think, the enforces of that respect, the "mods" would unload on me.

I respect Leadership527 because I have known him for years in person (has it really been that long?) and that respect does NOT come from an external source, I don't HAVE to respect him (which I do a police officer or they will "rodney king" your ass) but I CHOOSE to respect him.


All that you said is true, but still in order to be obeyed, authority must be respected, no matter what is the reason why you respect it. (your own high esteem, threat, expectation of society, etc.)



Okay dumfuck, YOU figure out the word we can use to describe the difference.




subtee -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:45:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

subtee you're making me dizzy[;)]
Prolly my fav avatar ever. Haha




kiwisub12 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:46:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:


Real authority is not "respected". That's like saying "I respect the law of gravity". Yeah, booyah. But whether or not you respect it, if you walk off the edge of a cliff, you're going to fall. If authority needs to be "respected", then it doesn't exist. Perhaps more accurately, only positional authority needs to be respected and I don't count boxes on org charts as real authority or real power.


Jeff, I think that the authority of a person can only be compared with the gravity if such person has telekinetic abilities.
So, in other cases, authority indeed needs to be respected in order to be obeyed.



Disagree - i didn't respect my teachers in high school - but i obeyed them. I haven't respected some of my bosses - but i obeyed them.

On the other hand, there have been times when my Sir has given me a command that i didn't understand, but because he is in a position of authority over me, i obeyed. If anyone else had given me a command without understanding it, i would have told them to jump off a cliff.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:47:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


If the guy doesn't have his shit together, but still expects the "slave" to obey out of nothing but "respect" for his non-existing authority, and the promises she made to obey him, then he's delusional. The day will come where she'll realize that disobedience yields better results then obedience... and at that point, any sane rational being will flip him and all his blustering commands the bird and walk off.



There is a word for that, we call it "Gor"...




LOL

On that point I'm going to have to agree and disagree with you.
You're totally right that there are a lot of "Gorean" men to expect obedience to come from such a fashion.

But not all of them.
My former Master most definitely doesn't fit the definition of what I've described above.
On the contrary even, he was very good at creating an environment in which obedience became as natural and logical as oxygen.
The reason we split has got nothing to do with his ability, or lack thereof to create a setting in which his authority became a natural thing... other external factors played a role, and I'm still convinced that if those hadn't been in place, we'd have been together "till death do us part".

So while on a whole you're right, you're not right in an absolute sense. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s3.gif[/image]





Oh I know, he is actually one I have grudging respect for and one of the few I would buy a round of drinks to sit and talk with.




SocratesNot -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:48:01 PM)

quote:

I obey people every day that I have no respect for, it's called work.


quote:



Disagree - i didn't respect my teachers in high school - but i obeyed them. I haven't respected some of my bosses - but i obeyed them.




Call it respect, or any other name, but there is a reason you CHOOSE to obey them. However, you don't choose to obey gravity, it simply happens.
That's my point.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:49:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
still in order to be obeyed, authority must be respected,

You've never been arrested, have you?




laurell3 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:49:29 PM)

You don't have points SN, you have absolutes that erode depending on who you are talking to.




Icarys -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:49:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

I obey people every day that I have no respect for, it's called work.


quote:



Disagree - i didn't respect my teachers in high school - but i obeyed them. I haven't respected some of my bosses - but i obeyed them.


On the other hand, there have been times when my Sir has given me a command that i didn't understand, but because he is in a position of authority over me, i obeyed. If anyone else had given me a command without understanding it, i would have told them to jump off a cliff.


Call it respect, or any other name, but there is a reason you CHOOSE to obey them. However, you don't choose to obey gravity, it simply happens.
That's my point.

What your saying makes perfect sense.




Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:51:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Okay dumfuck, YOU figure out the word we can use to describe the difference.



I think Jeffff already did.
There's a very distinct difference between respecting authority and respecting consequences.






SocratesNot -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:52:08 PM)

What I'm trying to say, when you obey someone you CHOOSE to do it for whatever reason, call it respect, or whatever, but still you CHOOSE to obey.

You can't to choose to obey gravity - it affects you by its very nature, you can't avoid its effect on you.
So, obedience to authority can't be compared with gravity.




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