RE: Slavery is bullshit (Full Version)

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RedMagic1 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:57:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
What I'm trying to say, when you obey someone you CHOOSE to do it for whatever reason, call it respect, or whatever, but still you CHOOSE to obey.

False.  Not only do you need to go on a date in order to understand BDSM, at this point I am convinced you need to experience life trauma in order to understand D/s.  Anyone held against their will, any rape victim, anyone who has lost loved ones as an adult, knows your statement is false.  We don't always have a choice.

I know this is just words to you, and you will not bother to wonder why I could possibly know this.  But other people reading will recognize what I'm saying here, and hopefully my words will matter to them.




Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 2:58:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

What I'm trying to say, when you obey someone you CHOOSE to do it for whatever reason, call it respect, or whatever, but still you CHOOSE to obey.

You can't to choose to obey gravity - it affects you by its very nature, you can't avoid its effect on you.
So, obedience to authority can't be compared with gravity.



Actually, that's so not true. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s1.gif[/image]

And I'm going to be SO totally unable to explain this to you, so you're just going to have to take my word for it... or not.

There are many times where my former Master gave me a command that I choose to obey.
But there are equally many times when he gave me a command that I would have chosen to disobey... and didn't.

I mean SERIOUSLY... every fiber of my being screaming at me: this is WRONG! I don't want this... and yet seeing myself do exactly what he wanted anyways.
I really can't give you a logically explanation for how it happened, or why it happened, but that man was/is seriously capable of just flat-out overriding my own willpower.

Somehow, he can just MAKE me obey.
It didn't happen very often, because most of the times I would have just chosen to obey him anyways. But the few times I choose to disobey him... I didn't. [:)]




leadership527 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:00:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Jeff, funny how all this stuff goes, isn't it? When I posted the OP, this was the gist of what I was trying to get to but you nailed it here.

*nods* The funny thing is that I suspect my arguments that this IS real slavery and your arguments that it is not are both correct... we are simply looking at different facets of the problem. I argue that in purely technical viewpoint, it is. I also readily agree that because of the vast number of circumstantial differences, some of which I've equated to the effects of nuclear testing, that "technical" answer is more than a bit misleading.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:02:44 PM)

Wow, this thread is getting a little heated. :-) Okay everybody who's been on the boards for awhile should appreciate SimplyMicheal's deep seated love for GOR by now.

In regards to Respect, I'm a little divided upon this because of my own experiences. There should be a baseline of general respect. The reality is such, that there are times when Respect is challenged or tested.

There are times when it's more important for somebody to follow or obey, regardless of whatever struggle they are having with respect at the time. I really don't get too caught up in the respect game, because that can be a way out for a submissive.

How to express this, Subbie does not like the choice or direction over some matter and does not want to follow. She intentionally does something disrespectful, then the whole issue of "respect" takes center stage or priority over what needs to be done.

Yeah Yeah, you might not like me now but it does not change the fact this still needs to get done or is gonna happen. So yeah, I really don't fall into the trappings of the "respect game".




laurell3 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:06:19 PM)

This really isn't all that heated, imo.

I agree with Ishtarr, the presumption that there is some conscious decision making choice is erroneous. You probably don't understand this SN, but once you've gotten to the point where you literally trust someone else with your life, when they give a simple command, there is no decision making involved at all, you just do it, without thinking.




BitaTruble -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:07:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1


We don't always have a choice.


This. Himself has the power to compel me to do his bidding. Without that power, there is no way I am granting any authority.




zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:07:35 PM)

Wls I'm sorry but I don't respect you for having made that post [8D]




SocratesNot -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:07:55 PM)

quote:


This is exactly why I don't like the "slavery" word.
Not because I have something against the concept as it is often used by couples like Jeff and Carol, but because too many people still use the term to reflect what it used to mean in a legal context.

Legal slavery does not require any leadership. All you have to do to own and dominate a legal slave is buy them.
Then you dish out orders and simple expect them to be obeyed.
Even when there isn't a hint of authority present, and the slave has to force themselves to obey and to "respect" your authority while secretly thinking about that knife they're going to plant in your back that same night, you can under legal slavery still expect them to at least half-ass carry out your orders.

The type of BDSM slavery that leads to harmonious relationships is totally different from that, because it depends on nothing but the dominant's ability to create and environment of authority that is as natural to the relationship as gravity is to the world.
To do this, the dominant has to have their own bases covered and actually create a continuous situation in which obedience is simple the better choice, for both parties involved.

A woman like Carol, who finds the right man obeys simple because she would be an idiot not to obey him.
Doing what he wants will eventually always yield the results she wants, which creates a situation in which compliance becomes as natural as oxygen.
But the reason this is true is because of the kind of man Jeff is, and because of his ability to create a setting in which obedience is always the best choice for her.

If the guy doesn't have his shit together, but still expects the "slave" to obey out of nothing but "respect" for his non-existing authority, and the promises she made to obey him, then he's delusional. The day will come where she'll realize that disobedience yields better results then obedience... and at that point, any sane rational being will flip him and all his blustering commands the bird and walk off.


What you have written causes very ambivalent feelings in me.
At the same time, I am fascinated and at the same time I have to disagree with some things.
Clearly, you described very intelligently the difference between slavery in ancient times - which is legal slavery, and the slavery in BDSM sense.
You explained how the former was beneficial only to the Owner, and his authority was respected only out of fear and coercion, while the second is beneficial
for both parties involved and the authority is respected out of holding the Master in very high esteem and out of knowledge that doing what the Master
demands would always lead to results that the slave wants.

However, this very same text makes some very unrealistic assumptions about the nature of the Master.
You assume that the Master is almost perfect and that he can't be wrong.
What I really think is that no one is perfect and everyone can be wrong, sometimes very wrong.
By the same logic, in many cases, what Master demands will not necessarily bring beneficial effects, neither to slave, neither to Master himself.
This is not because the Master is evil, but simply because he is a human.

No human is perfect, and no human always know what is best.
All the presidents of states and prime ministers have many counselors and even with their help, they sometimes do wrong, and sometimes do very wrong.

So, no one is perfect, nether kings, nor popes, nor emperors, nor presidents, nor Masters.

Assuming that one course of action will always bring best results to the slave JUST BECAUSE THE MASTER ORDERED IT is a logical fallacy called
"Argument from authority".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:14:58 PM)

SocratesNot,
Don't think for a moment that a slave does not know or understand that their Owner is far from perfect. A friend of mine used to have a saying "Even if it's wrong, it's right".

Now, I'm not talking about in the radical context of somebody having somebody killed and etc.

The reality is such, we are all human beings and we all are perfectly capable of being the imperfect beings that we are. It's a big misconception that Masters/Owners/Doms spring from the Earth and are all powerful perfect beings that walk the Earth.

There's the word called "Acceptance" which I've not seen brought up very much here.




laurell3 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:15:29 PM)

Again with the wikipedia.....

I don't think most of the people here assume someone with a Master title is perfect. I take that risk willingly and accept that he may make mistakes that we will both learn and grow from. I would make them alone as well anyway wouldn't I?

I wouldn't agree that "in many cases" that is true though, we tend to pick people that are like us and share common goals and thought processes. I personally avoid blithering clueless idiots.




leadership527 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:17:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Jeff, I think that the authority of a person can only be compared with the gravity if such person has telekinetic abilities.
So, in other cases, authority indeed needs to be respected in order to be obeyed.
I know that's what you think. Really I do. But what you think is not reality. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Again, I will go over this in detail for you.

Authority stems from power.
Power stems from one's personal ability to influence and inspire

That's it. Period. Remember, that you are talking to a person who actually has held positions of non-trivial authority and power for going on 20 years now. I am not speculating here. You can wrap whatever other concepts you want into this and you will be wrong. Clouding the issue with irellevant thoughts doesn't change the issue, just the clarity of your thinking. Throughout my entire career, I have taken authority that was not given to me and wielded it to great effect. I have frequently done so with no backing other than my own personal abilities. In the end, that's all a leader has.

Just to point out why your business of "respect" is not relevant... consider that if I have the ability to influence Carol, then I have the ability to make her respect me. Of COURSE she respects me... i would not allow anything else.

Now, before you go down some weird BDSM-ism path here, remember that I'm talking about real authority and real power in the real world... the one that billions of vanilla people exist in every single day. I don't, nor have I ever, drawn any of my thinking from the BDSM world which I largely find to be a muddled mess of half-thought out notions and bits of spirituality. I'm talking about normal, every day life.




SocratesNot -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:18:20 PM)

quote:


Actually, that's so not true.

And I'm going to be SO totally unable to explain this to you, so you're just going to have to take my word for it... or not.

There are many times where my former Master gave me a command that I choose to obey.
But there are equally many times when he gave me a command that I would have chosen to disobey... and didn't.

I mean SERIOUSLY... every fiber of my being screaming at me: this is WRONG! I don't want this... and yet seeing myself do exactly what he wanted anyways.
I really can't give you a logically explanation for how it happened, or why it happened, but that man was/is seriously capable of just flat-out overriding my own willpower.

Somehow, he can just MAKE me obey.
It didn't happen very often, because most of the times I would have just chosen to obey him anyways. But the few times I choose to disobey him... I didn't.


Again, I disagree. Only physical laws such as gravity are obeyed without choice.
Obeying a person without choice is only possible if:
a) such person has telekinetic abilities (which is still not even proven to exist at all)
b) such person hypnotized you or brainwashed you in some way, so that you sincerely think that you are unable to disobey
but even under hypnosis it's impossible to do something that you think is morally wrong (such as kill an innocent person)
So, if you really do something that is totally against your morals, this is because you chose to do it.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:18:53 PM)

SocratesNot,
I'm actually kind of curious here, what kind of commands and orders do you have inside your head as being common to M/s relationships? Do you somehow think or believe everything is centered or hinged upon extremes?




Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:20:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

However, this very same text makes some very unrealistic assumptions about the nature of the Master.
You assume that the Master is almost perfect and that he can't be wrong.
What I really think is that no one is perfect and everyone can be wrong, sometimes very wrong.
By the same logic, in many cases, what Master demands will not necessarily bring beneficial effects, neither to slave, neither to Master himself.
This is not because the Master is evil, but simply because he is a human.



Actually, I make no such assumptions.
My former Master wasn't perfect. Lord knows he fucked up... more then once.

However, the quality that made his such a great leader to me, despite his humanity, is that he is literally obsessed with "doing the right thing".
"Doing the right thing" dominates his life, and as such, the life of everybody close to him.

He's made mistakes, but in the end, all his mistakes were somehow less then the results of the mistakes I would have made in similar situations.
I trusted him and followed him not because he was perfect, but because he was more capable of approaching perfecting when it comes to leading, then I ever will be.

Also, because he is such a great leader, he also doesn't shy away from getting input from others prior to making his decision.
There has been more then one time where he slightly or dramatically altered his plans after input from me... sometimes ever when my input was that I totally agreed with him.

However, once he made up his mind, that was that, and whatever he had decided would simple happen.
It wasn't a matter or "if" "when" or "maybe"... it would just happen as much as I would take my next breath.

You Socrates, make the assumption that because nobody is perfect, it is therefor better not to follow a leader, but trust yourself.
And in that you fail to take into account that you yourself are imperfect as well.
When you find a leader who is clearly more capable of deciding then you yourself are, following is the smart thing to do... even when he's still not perfect.






Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:20:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Power stems from one's personal ability to influence and inspire

I have to agree with this 100%




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:23:11 PM)

SN, Ishtarr's last post at you should give you some great insight.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:25:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Jeff, I think that the authority of a person can only be compared with the gravity if such person has telekinetic abilities.
So, in other cases, authority indeed needs to be respected in order to be obeyed.
I know that's what you think. Really I do. But what you think is not reality. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Again, I will go over this in detail for you.

Authority stems from power.
Power stems from one's personal ability to influence and inspire

That's it. Period. Remember, that you are talking to a person who actually has held positions of non-trivial authority and power for going on 20 years now. I am not speculating here. You can wrap whatever other concepts you want into this and you will be wrong. Clouding the issue with irellevant thoughts doesn't change the issue, just the clarity of your thinking. Throughout my entire career, I have taken authority that was not given to me and wielded it to great effect. I have frequently done so with no backing other than my own personal abilities. In the end, that's all a leader has.

Just to point out why your business of "respect" is not relevant... consider that if I have the ability to influence Carol, then I have the ability to make her respect me. Of COURSE she respects me... i would not allow anything else.

Now, before you go down some weird BDSM-ism path here, remember that I'm talking about real authority and real power in the real world... the one that billions of vanilla people exist in every single day. I don't, nor have I ever, drawn any of my thinking from the BDSM world which I largely find to be a muddled mess of half-thought out notions and bits of spirituality. I'm talking about normal, every day life.


Damn, that post made me hot and I don't even want to fuck you!




BitaTruble -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:27:11 PM)

Then there's the whole.. grab her by the hair, drag her to her knees and just take the bitch down thing which is so freakin' hot and has nothing to do with making a choice. I know that I am not the only one who enjoys force play and take downs. If we both end up bloodied and look like we've been to war, that's a scene that's worked for sure.. might even be worthy of pictures. [;)]




Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:27:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Again, I disagree. Only physical laws such as gravity are obeyed without choice.
Obeying a person without choice is only possible if:
a) such person has telekinetic abilities (which is still not even proven to exist at all)
b) such person hypnotized you or brainwashed you in some way, so that you sincerely think that you are unable to disobey
but even under hypnosis it's impossible to do something that you think is morally wrong (such as kill an innocent person)
So, if you really do something that is totally against your morals, this is because you chose to do it.



Of course you disagree, I wouldn't have expected anything differently.
The closest I'm going to get your to understanding how this worked is by telling you that "yes, you can safely assume that he brainwashed me".
While this isn't true in an absolute sense (and the other posters here will reconsider that) this is probably what you would label the process that took place in order to get to the point where I would obey him without my consent.

To use the old worn down question of "would you jump off a bridge if your Master ordered you to?"
Well my answer to that would have been "yes" simple because I had faith in him to degree that IF he would order me to jump of a bridge, he'd have a sufficiently good reason for doing so, and staying on the bridge would have more negative results then jumping.

I wouldn't even have had to question his motives...
If he would have told me “Jump, NOW!” I would have jumped.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:34:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Then there's the whole.. grab her by the hair, drag her to her knees and just take the bitch down thing which is so freakin' hot and has nothing to do with making a choice. I know that I am not the only one who enjoys force play and take downs. If we both end up bloodied and look like we've been to war, that's a scene that's worked for sure.. might even be worthy of pictures. [;)]


I don't usually play with little girls but I got introduced to this shy little girl at a rather "extreme" event and they all told me I should play with her. She couldn't sit still as I negotiated with her, at one point I even asked if she was on something but the people who ran the event assured me nope, she was just like that. She indicated she liked it rough and I laughed, mainly because I wasn't about to be rough with a newbie.

I did a sort of rough tie job on her, leaving one leg free so she could wiggle. I would hold her leg open (she was naked and rather spectacular) and beat her inner thigh and cunt as she struggled. She was a serious handful, trying to bite and claw me which normally would have had me kill the scene but it just had the feeling of "this is working" and so I ran with it. Towards the end she got free of my cuffs and came at me, I wrestled her to the ground in the middle of the playspace and held her down as I beat her ass. Tried to hold her down would be a better way of putting it as she was a wiry little thing.

Turns out my friends were fucking with me a bit, this "little newbie girl" was a hard core player, played with someone who thinks black eyes are fun, and nothing I could have done would have pushed her too far. Anyway, it was interesting but I have been doing a fair amount of takedown scenes and have been having fun with them. Haven't done them with anyone I am in a relationship with yet though, not sure why.

(not to mods, this thread is fucked so who cares)




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