RE: Slavery is bullshit (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:35:34 PM)

quote:

Again, I disagree. Only physical laws such as gravity are obeyed without choice.
Obeying a person without choice is only possible if:
a) such person has telekinetic abilities (which is still not even proven to exist at all)
b) such person hypnotized you or brainwashed you in some way, so that you sincerely think that you are unable to disobey
but even under hypnosis it's impossible to do something that you think is morally wrong (such as kill an innocent person)
So, if you really do something that is totally against your morals, this is because you chose to do it.

I haven't read this whole blow hard thread but I understand at least what your saying here..Even when we like to think we don't have a choice..We do.

Then you have what Red has pointed out as examples of not having choice..Rape and such..Even then there are choices..Whether or not it would change the outcome of anything is purely speculative and relative to that situation.
Based on those examples though..Your choice was taken away.

You can't go through life without making millions of choices..some so subtle you don't even pay attention to or place them in the realm of choices anymore..but they are still..choices.

You have also have the situations that you've pointed out which are truly (at this point and time..Give it another 100 years and we might not have to worry about gravity :>) out of your realm of choice.



SocratesNot -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:41:48 PM)

quote:

Of course you disagree, I wouldn't have expected anything differently.
The closest I'm going to get your to understanding how this worked is by telling you that "yes, you can safely assume that he brainwashed me".
While this isn't true in an absolute sense (and the other posters here will reconsider that) this is probably what you would label the process that took place in order to get to the point where I would obey him without my consent.

To use the old worn down question of "would you jump off a bridge if your Master ordered you to?"
Well my answer to that would have been "yes" simple because I had faith in him to degree that IF he would order me to jump of a bridge, he'd have a sufficiently good reason for doing so, and staying on the bridge would have more negative results then jumping.

I wouldn't even have had to question his motives...
If he would have told me “Jump, NOW!” I would have jumped.


OK, so you admit that you were brainwashed. And, yet again, you assume that he is perfect.
quote:

Well my answer to that would have been "yes" simple because I had faith in him to degree that IF he would order me to jump of a bridge, he'd have a sufficiently good reason for doing so, and staying on the bridge would have more negative results then jumping.

Only if you think that he is perfect, which means he can't be wrong, you can do such thing as jump from the bridge even without any thinking at all, as you explained by:
quote:

If he would have told me “Jump, NOW!” I would have jumped.


But I will ask you 2 absolutely unreasonable questions, so that we can in theory explain the nature of your obedience, is it really automatic, or you actually choose to obey.

So , would you kill an innocent person if he ordered you to, in a situation when you have absolutely no clue why he orders it?
Would you kill yourself, if he ordered it?



SimplyMichael -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:43:24 PM)

For the love of god, I promise to be nice to Goreans if the useless fucking mods will boot this fucker!



Icarys -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:50:21 PM)

quote:

But I will ask you 2 absolutely unreasonable questions, so that we can in theory explain the nature of your obedience, is it really automatic, or you actually choose to obey.

So , would you kill an innocent person if he ordered you to, in a situation when you have absolutely no clue why he orders it?
Would you kill yourself, if he ordered it?


Although pretty much everything related to a Master/slave relationship is really choice..You can get a person to a point that they believe they have no choice in the matter.

My personal view is this .. although common sense... is a very extreme way to continue a conversation.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:52:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

durrrrrrrrr
Translation request from the poor English person:

Is that the same as 'duh'? Or the same but pronounced different? Or a whole new word I know nothing about with a whole different meaning?



VideoAdminZeta -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:52:40 PM)

UselessFuckingMod Sez:

Stop the personal attacks.

Stop the blanket insults of the relationships of others.



Level -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:56:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminZeta

UselessFuckingMod Sez:

Stop the personal attacks.

Stop the blanket insults of the relationships of others.



"Useless"?



kiwisub12 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:57:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

Of course you disagree, I wouldn't have expected anything differently.
The closest I'm going to get your to understanding how this worked is by telling you that "yes, you can safely assume that he brainwashed me".
While this isn't true in an absolute sense (and the other posters here will reconsider that) this is probably what you would label the process that took place in order to get to the point where I would obey him without my consent.

To use the old worn down question of "would you jump off a bridge if your Master ordered you to?"
Well my answer to that would have been "yes" simple because I had faith in him to degree that IF he would order me to jump of a bridge, he'd have a sufficiently good reason for doing so, and staying on the bridge would have more negative results then jumping.

I wouldn't even have had to question his motives...
If he would have told me “Jump, NOW!” I would have jumped.


OK, so you admit that you were brainwashed. And, yet again, you assume that he is perfect.
quote:

Well my answer to that would have been "yes" simple because I had faith in him to degree that IF he would order me to jump of a bridge, he'd have a sufficiently good reason for doing so, and staying on the bridge would have more negative results then jumping.

Only if you think that he is perfect, which means he can't be wrong, you can do such thing as jump from the bridge even without any thinking at all, as you explained by:
quote:

If he would have told me “Jump, NOW!” I would have jumped.


But I will ask you 2 absolutely unreasonable questions, so that we can in theory explain the nature of your obedience, is it really automatic, or you actually choose to obey.

So , would you kill an innocent person if he ordered you to, in a situation when you have absolutely no clue why he orders it?
Would you kill yourself, if he ordered it?





[8|]



Elisabella -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:57:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

durrrrrrrrr
Translation request from the poor English person:

Is that the same as 'duh'? Or the same but pronounced different? Or a whole new word I know nothing about with a whole different meaning?



LOL

It's pronounced differently - with an "r" I believe [;)]

And while conventional usage of "duh" tends to imply something is obvious, conventional usage of "dur" goes one step further and implies that the person being addressed is mentally challenged for not being able to see the obvious.

It is either derived from or the originator of the phrase "hurp durp" and when used irl can be accompanied by a toothy Stephen Baldwin idiot face.
[:D]



Elisabella -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 3:58:56 PM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
"Useless"?


"Useless" to all the people who expect the mods to do the job of the iggy button.

*waits for the next thread about how doms are all about self mastery and personal accountability and shit*



Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:00:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

But I will ask you 2 absolutely unreasonable questions, so that we can in theory explain the nature of your obedience, is it really automatic, or you actually choose to obey.

So , would you kill an innocent person if he ordered you to, in a situation when you have absolutely no clue why he orders it?
Would you kill yourself, if he ordered it?



First of all, no I don't assume he is perfect.
My responds to jump when he would tell me to is not any different then the response from a well-trained soldier in combat to a command of his long-know, well-trusted officer.
Put that same soldier with a newbie officer that he has no history with, and he will most likely be very hesitant to obey certain commands.
But if he and the officer have a history together, soldiers WILL take orders that at first hand seem to be insane.
That doesn't mean that they think their officer is incapable of making mistakes, it just means that the officer has proven that he is unlikely to make a mistake, and that the soldier has learned over time that the likelihood of him getting out alive is substantially greater when following the officer's command then when questioning and debating it with him.

My obedience to my Master was based on the history we had together, and his ability to project and maintain an aura in which I had absolute faith in him.

So as to your last two questions:
If and only if that bond of faith in my Master is still in place (and thus excluding scenarios in which he's obviously gone insane or something like that) then yes, I would have killed for him, and yes, I would have died for him.

The reason this is because the only way you can possible come up with a scenario in which he would order such a thing and still have that bond of faith in place, he would have a very good and legitimate reason for ordering me to do so.
If I still had faith in him, then he would still be that same man "obsessed with doing the right thing" which means that "killing or dying" would be the right thing to do.

Not likely that there are many, or even ANY scenarios that you can come up with in which he'd be convinced that "killing or dying" was the right thing.
But IF there are, and IF he would have been convinced that it was the right thing, then yeah, I'd see no reason to have not obeyed him.





VaguelyCurious -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:00:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

LOL

It's pronounced differently - with an "r" I believe [;)]

And while conventional usage of "duh" tends to imply something is obvious, conventional usage of "dur" goes one step further and implies that the person being addressed is mentally challenged for not being able to see the obvious.
Thankyou. This bit I understood perfectly.  But then you said...

quote:

It is either derived from or the originator of the phrase "hurp durp" and when used irl can be accompanied by a toothy Stephen Baldwin idiot face.
[:D]
...and it was like you'd gone back to talking a foreign language :P

(I'll work out who the fuck Stephen Baldwin is when it isn't past midnight any more...lol)



VideoAdminZeta -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:01:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella




quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
"Useless"?


"Useless" to all the people who expect the mods to do the job of the iggy button.

*waits for the next thread about how doms are all about self mastery and personal accountability and shit*

This made me laugh!!!!!

Listen up, people. I was obviously too nice in my previous warning.

If you want to post "Person X sucks, " or "Y type of relationships are unhealthy or wrong," then go elsewhere.



Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:02:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

*waits for the next thread about how doms are all about self mastery and personal accountability and shit*


[sm=hearts.gif]



Elisabella -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:02:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

(I'll work out who the fuck Stephen Baldwin is when it isn't past midnight any more...lol)


[image]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b314/tmcatee/StephenBaldwin.jpg[/image]
*fixed*

And yes I am fluent in internets. [8D]



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:07:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

[image]http://media.photobucket.com/image/stephen%20baldwin/tmcatee/StephenBaldwin.jpg[/image]


And yes I am fluent in internets. [8D]
Not sure what you just posted but it's not showing up here :-(

ETA: I've just googled the guy, and he seems to have a pretty ordinary looking face...



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:07:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella




quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
"Useless"?


"Useless" to all the people who expect the mods to do the job of the iggy button.

*waits for the next thread about how doms are all about self mastery and personal accountability and shit*

Self mastery and personal accountability I can see, but I've never heard of a dom who is all about shit, full of shit yes but not all about it [;)][8D]




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

*waits for the next thread about how doms are all about self mastery and personal accountability and shit*


[sm=hearts.gif]


Gives me flashbacks to the karate kid movie with the whole wax on wax off routine...



Ishtarr -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:11:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Self mastery and personal accountability I can see, but I've never heard of a dom who is all about shit, full of shit yes but not all about it [;)][8D]



If you haven't you should see some of the disgusting mails I've gotten in the past week... 



Elisabella -> RE: Slavery is bullshit (6/1/2010 4:13:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
If you haven't you should see some of the disgusting mails I've gotten in the past week... 


Ahhhhh

Okay maybe the next thread will be "Scat is bullshit"



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