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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 6:42:21 AM

kdsub

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THERE IS NO POINT OF NO RETURN.

There is a choice...force withdrawal with long-term treatment under controlled circumstances or.... a terrible expensive death. There is no such thing as free will to the insane... and that is what people are in those circumstances... Do we kill the insane because they are hard to cure?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 81

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:16:41 AM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

THERE IS NO POINT OF NO RETURN.

There is a choice...force withdrawal with long-term treatment under controlled circumstances or.... a terrible expensive death. There is no such thing as free will to the insane... and that is what people are in those circumstances... Do we kill the insane because they are hard to cure?

Butch

Nah just lobotomize and confine them.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 82

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 8:15:40 AM

calamitysandra

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Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

At least here, they get that first, and second, and third, and so forth.

As I wrote above, those programs are restricted to cases in which truly all hope is lost.
The objective is not only to protect society, they also give people who had absolutely no perspective any more, a chance for a at least marginally normal live. They take away the pressure of needing to score the next fix, and allow the addicts to focus on other areas of his/her life for the first time in many years.

Those programs are a kindness for those who are terminally addicted.

calamitysandra your posts usually make sense and I respect them but the above is not right...there is no such thing as beyond hope when it comes to substance abuse. Death by the effects of heroin is far worse than forced treatment even if it means a sanitarium. Hell why not just put them to sleep and put them out of their misery. Giving them a terrible poison… the very thing that is killing them is no mercy.

Butch

If you really believe that there is no such thing as an addict with no hope of ever beating the addiction, then I envy you your naivety.

If you want to get really technical, you might say that even those who have addiction histories almost as long as their lives, and have seen every treatment possible under the sun at least twice, if not more often, still have a chance to beat the habit. But this chance would have to be expressed per mill.

I think the major disconnect between your and my point, is the understanding about which kind of addicts are eligible for such programs .
We are not talking the 20 something guy who has been fixing for 10 years.
We are talking about the woman in her 50s who can not even really remember a time at which she was not out on the street, desperate for the next fix.

This people have reached a point at which the hunger for their drug has destroyed their life so completely that there is nothing left beside the drugs.
If they detox, and they have, many times at that, they will be shooting up again 2 or 3 days after they are out.
Why? Well, because it is all they know anymore. Literally.

Giving them clean drugs, medical attention, a safe haven to use, removes much of the time consuming necessities of the life they have been leading.
It gives them the opportunity to build a life that does not solely revolve about drugs for the first time in many decades.

You say they always have the free will to quit. Go out, find a place that offers help to those that have reached this last rung on a long, slow, agonizing ladder to death. Spend time with them, talk to them, learn about them. Than come back and tell me again they could decide to quit.

As to giving them poison, well, they will use, no matter what we do. At least we can make sure it is clean poison, they have medical help, and they have enough brain capacity free to take at least a bit care of themselves, thus mitigating the effects of the drugs at least a bit.

Sadly, there really are people gone that far, that this is the best we can do for them.
And yes, for those it is a mercy.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 6/6/2010 8:24:07 AM >

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"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
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(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 83

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 4:43:54 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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But but...it kills them...can't you see addiction is progressive...it is not a clean give me drugs and I'll be ok...It does not work that way...now who is naive.

If they give a prescribed amount and increase it as addiction progresses it will kill them. If they don't increase the dosage then they will get what they can from the government and go to the streets again for the remainder…Right back where they started and no benefit to the government.

It is unworkable and unethical to kill people simply because you do not want to commit them to a sanitarium on a long term basis... even if it is for the rest of their lives. There would be no difference in cost and it would be more humane. You are doing no one a favor in guaranteeing them a painful life and an expensive end with no benefit to anyone.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to calamitysandra)

Post #: 84

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 5:05:27 PM

calamitysandra

Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But but...it kills them...can't you see addiction is progressive...it is not a clean give me drugs and I'll be ok...It does not work that way...now who is naive.

If they give a prescribed amount and increase it as addiction progresses it will kill them. If they don't increase the dosage then they will get what they can from the government and go to the streets again for the remainder…Right back where they started and no benefit to the government.

It is unworkable and unethical to kill people simply because you do not want to commit them to a sanitarium on a long term basis... even if it is for the rest of their lives. There would be no difference in cost and it would be more humane. You are doing no one a favor in guaranteeing them a painful life and an expensive end with no benefit to anyone.

Butch

More humane? You do realise, that you would indeed have to confine them for the rest of their life? In an absolutely secure, locked up facility? Do you really think it humane to lock them away, day after day, night after night? What a life would that be?
Not even speaking of the question of legality and the human rights situation if you confine somebody for the rest of their life against their will. Would this be ethical?

Yes, giving them heroin will kill them. You will not hear me denying this.
Only not giving them the stuff will kill them, too. Most likely faster, dirtier, more painful, and without ever having tasted life again.

I will stress again, that this programs are not designed for the "average" junkie. Only the truly desperate cases, for whom the last ray of hope vanished behind the horizon a long time ago are candidates. There are not many of those. Normally they are dead a good, long while earlier.

I agree with you, it is an horrific option. But I do recognize, that sadly there are cases in which this last, terrible measure is the kindest thing we can do.

Edit to add: If I did sound snarky earlier I apologize. I really do envy you. Looking in the face of addiction decades old, seeing the kind of horrible destruction it wrecks on body, mind, and soul, not only the addicts, but also for those around him, is truly a jarring experience. It is not something you will ever forget. So, you might want to treat my recommendation to seek out, and interact with people in the claws of this monster with caution.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 6/6/2010 5:11:28 PM >

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Post #: 85

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 6:10:32 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But but...it kills them...can't you see addiction is progressive...it is not a clean give me drugs and I'll be ok...It does not work that way...now who is naive.

If they give a prescribed amount and increase it as addiction progresses it will kill them. If they don't increase the dosage then they will get what they can from the government and go to the streets again for the remainder…Right back where they started and no benefit to the government.

It is unworkable and unethical to kill people simply because you do not want to commit them to a sanitarium on a long term basis... even if it is for the rest of their lives. There would be no difference in cost and it would be more humane. You are doing no one a favor in guaranteeing them a painful life and an expensive end with no benefit to anyone.

Butch

You might want to do a bit of research into the difference in quality of life between someone who uses heroin and someone on a methadone program. Methadone has only one inherent advantage over heroin - a longer half life means that for most people they take a maintenance dose once a day instead of two or three times.

All the other advantages - stable dosing, safe to acquire, affordability, able to be part of a routine, are directly related to legality.

Another thing, while it is true that prolonged opiate use requires higher levels to maintain, that process is increased exponentially with the differences in purity found in street heroin. If you do 3 bags a day, then the next week you get 3 really pure bags, you'll enjoy it for a week then realize the next week you need 5 normal bags to maintain it. Then you get 5 good bags, etc. It's cyclical. With a standardized dose/purity, your tolerance goes up very slowly, people on long term methadone programs have the same dosage for years.

I also disagree with you about what's humane. There are reasons to lock someone up - if they steal or rob people or something like that to fund their addiction, but if they're buying drugs with their legally earned paycheck, how on earth is it humane to lock them up and force them into a long and painful withdrawal process? Especially if they have no desire to stop using drugs. I don't know if you really believe that addiction only has a physical component and that locking someone in a room until the drug leaves their system means they're "cured" but that's not the case. It's just not.

I think treatment should be available and easy to acquire for anyone who wants it. I think drugs should be legal for anyone who wants drugs. And I think if you're going to go down the "allowing people to choose to consume this is allowing them to do something that might eventually kill them" route you're going to have to make a lot more than heroin illegal.

You also seem to think one's quality of life is determined by whether or not they're addicted to something - ie that being imprisoned and non-addicted is better than being addicted, at home with family and friends. You have the right to make that decision for yourself. But when you talk about forcibly confining people, forcing people to live on your terms, forcing people to be unhappy, you go too far in my opinion.

If you genuinely want to help addicts, help the ones who seek out help. If you want to be a crusader against addiction, don't spout any "its more humane" shit at me. There are tens of thousands of people who actually want help fighting their addiction, why not focus on them instead of focusing on forcing the people who don't want your help to accept it at any cost?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 86

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:03:49 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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Methadone is part of a treatment program to reduce withdrawal symptoms and as a maintenance dose while part of a comprehensive treatment program... Not a give and forget drug.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 87

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:07:02 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Methadone is part of a treatment program to reduce withdrawal symptoms and as a maintenance dose while part of a comprehensive treatment program... Not a give and forget drug.

Methadone maintenance and methadone detox are two different programs. Only methadone detox seeks to completely rid the addict of opiate dependence.

The primary goal of MMT is to reintegrate the addict into normal society, same as the Danish program in the OP that uses heroin instead of methadone.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 88

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:08:38 PM

kdsub

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Yes it is more humane to lock them up ...give comprehensive treatment... relieve the pressure on their families... Do you really think someone high on heroin will be able to live a productive life...yea right... they will continue to be a burden, a danger, and bad influence on their families.

I don't expect us to agree so I will not comment further... it is up to others to decide if they care to.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to calamitysandra)

Post #: 89

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:10:22 PM

kdsub

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Exactly...my point free of heroin...not still addicted slowly dieing unable to function a burden to all around them.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 90

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:22:56 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes it is more humane to lock them up ...give comprehensive treatment... relieve the pressure on their families... Do you really think someone high on heroin will be able to live a productive life...yea right... they will continue to be a burden, a danger, and bad influence on their families.

I don't expect us to agree so I will not comment further... it is up to others to decide if they care to.

Butch

Ah, that's the crux of it. The "humane treatment" isn't for the addict, it's for their families.

To answer your question no I do not believe a person confined to a sanitarium for the rest of their life will live a more productive life than a heroin addict. The only people who might be able to do something productive in a sanitarium are writers, but I doubt Burroughs' catalogue would have improved from imprisonment.

I can however think of quite a few very productive musicians who were heroin addicts. I will say that I feel Kurt Cobain's suicide was a tragedy, but he died on his own terms after a very productive life as one of the most influential icons of a new musical movement. Lou Reed was a heroin addict. David Bowie was a cocaine addict. Billie Holiday was a heroin addict. These people did incredible things even while addicted and that's only taking modern drugs into account.

Benjamin Franklin smoked opium. I bet he did more with his life than you've done with yours. Fuck, you're quoting him in your signature. Do you think he'd quote you in his?

I do think we'll have to agree to disagree, so long as you agree I can confine you to a sanitarium if I ever find out about you trying to forcibly confine anyone else to one. Fair's fair.

ETA I also find it ironic that your signature promotes the "wisdom" of wine and the "freedom" of beer, when you're so against the "beauty" found when under the influence of opiates.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 6/6/2010 7:31:16 PM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:40:34 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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No one has shown me proof that there are significant percentages of addicts that modern science says are absolutely impossible to cure...So yes treatment is always better than death, at least there is a chance of a productive life in the future. Free access to heroin is a death sentence.

There is no such thing as a well adjusted productive life time user of heroin. There are only tombstones or a place in potters field.

I do understand where you are coming from but I think you are giving up on people...I never do that.

Unless you keep arguing with me...

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 92

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 7:56:50 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

It's not so much that I'm giving up on people, it's that I long ago gave up on the idea that I could force someone against their will to be what I want them to be.

Life is a death sentence. Seriously, not to be morbid, but once you reach adulthood your body is more or less dying. You can get plastic knees or porcelaine teeth, but you're not going to beat it. You get 70 years to do what you want with life and then it's gone.

There are people who want help fighting their addictions because it's not the type of life they want to live. Those people should be given treatment, help and support. But there are people who don't really want to live life clean. They probably won't even get 70 years on the planet, they might get 50, or 20, but at the same time I think many of them have come to terms with their mortality. If they're okay with dying young, why aren't you okay with letting them? I believe that every person should have the right to die on his or her own terms if they so desire.

I mean really, have you never seen an obese person in line at McDonalds? They're willfully killing themselves...as someone who has been both thin and fat I can say that the quality of life is much better when thin. But the quality of life of being fat is better than what you'd get in a sanitarium, locked up for years as your obesity and desire to eat junk food is "treated."

I can only imagine what it must be like on the outside, watching someone you love do things that worsen their health and shorten their lifespan. I only know one person who still uses heroin, someone I once loved passionately and will always have love for, who lives an absolutely insane life hitchhiking the US, making music, playing at parties, meeting interesting people. I know he'll die young. I hope he dies young, actually, because after a point it'll all catch up to him and imagining that is far worse than imagining having to mourn him. I hope he lives a brilliant, passionate life, finds fulfillment in what he does, and makes peace with himself before he goes.

To me, if he finds those things within his addiction, I wish him the best. If he finds those things within sobriety, I wish him the best. But I'm not him, and I can't tell him he'd be happier sober, especially because I don't even know if it's true.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 6/6/2010 7:58:11 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 93

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 8:11:04 PM

kdsub

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So you believe in euthanasia? This is essentially what you are proposing. If so then we agree, I too believe in my choice to take my life humanely if I so desire…Will if I can show three doctors saying I am terminal with 6 months are less to live.

But this is not the same as a government sponsored program giving poison to addicts And you will not find three doctors saying any one person is impossible to cure of addiction I would bet.

You talk about rights but you seem to forget those around them that must take care of a state sponsored addict and their infirmities…let alone the mental stress. We have been talking and I’ll bet both of us have suffered a addicted love one and have both experienced the terrible stress and guilt.

What about the children that must live with or around… what does this say or do to them… No…people that are insane… truly helplessly dysfunctional need to be in a sanitarium where they can get help or where others are protected from them.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 94

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 8:28:44 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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Yes I do believe in euthanasia. I understand why doctors have those restrictions, and I suppose if you ask a doctor to kill you, you have to do it on his terms. More than that though, I believe in suicide, if the person wants to die. In my opinion, it's their inherent right as a person to be able to end their own life - even if it devastates me, my own happiness doesn't outweigh their agency over themselves. They are an individual person, not "my friend" or "my mother" or "my" anything else. They're themselves, any relation to me is secondary.

If an addict is unable to properly care for their child they should not be that child's guardian. They wouldn't be able to care for the child in a sanitarium either...but even if you put them in one, you can't leave the children alone in the house. You have to find a new guardian for the children. You can do that without imprisoning the parent. If the parent breaks a restraining order, or steals a car, or robs a drugstore, or anything like that, then yeah, imprison them. But there's a difference between helping the children, and punishing the parent. And besides, I've said before that I believe most of the problems that come with addiction could be alleviated if the drugs were legal. The methadone patient goes to the methadone clinic, takes their dose, and goes to work. The heroin addict has to wait for a dealer to sell to them. There's an inherent instability in black market dealings that make it hard to maintain stability in other areas. I was in college when I was an addict - I missed a lot of classes waiting for rides, waiting for deliveries, waiting for dealers to package product, etc that I wouldn't have missed if I'd been able to drive over to the Heroin Mart, get what I needed, and go. I know this because it's what happened when I got on methadone.

I think our biggest disconnect is that you think that addiction and insanity/dysfunction are intertwined. That if someone is a heroin addict, they will be dysfunctional, even if the heroin they use is legal and easily acquired. I disagree. I've personally known functional methadone addicts. Functional in every sense of the word, married, stable people with good jobs and houses in the suburbs. To me, that means that unless there is something inherently "bad" about the chemical composition of heroin, the same should be possible with legal heroin. Of course there will be dysfunctional heroin and methadone users, but from my experience whether a person is functional or dysfunctional on a drug depends more on the person than the drug itself, especially when the drug is something legal like methadone or alcohol.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 95

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 8:41:47 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think our biggest disconnect is that you think that addiction and insanity/dysfunction are intertwined. That if someone is a heroin addict, they will be dysfunctional, even if the heroin they use is legal and easily acquired. I disagree. I've personally known functional methadone addicts.

You really need to do some research and see the damage heroin does to the body...should I post some again? We are talking heroin here not methadone. As I've stated before methadone is for rehabilitation of addicts not a life long substitute.

The two drugs are different…one deadly… the other much less so. Again we are talking free heroin not methadone. Given a choice which do you think the addict would take. If they supplied free methadone to addicts I would be all for it… So methadone does not enter into the heart of our discussion.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 96

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 8:59:24 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think our biggest disconnect is that you think that addiction and insanity/dysfunction are intertwined. That if someone is a heroin addict, they will be dysfunctional, even if the heroin they use is legal and easily acquired. I disagree. I've personally known functional methadone addicts.

You really need to do some research and see the damage heroin does to the body...should I post some again? We are talking heroin here not methadone. As I've stated before methadone is for rehabilitation of addicts not a life long substitute.

The two drugs are different…one deadly… the other much less so. Again we are talking free heroin not methadone. Given a choice which do you think the addict would take. If they supplied free methadone to addicts I would be all for it… So methadone does not enter into the heart of our discussion.

Butch

Again, doing things that damage the body doesn't necessarily mean a person can't live a functional or productive life. Cigarette smokers are probably the best example of this, though there are also many obese people who are able to get up and go to work every day.

Methadone is just as lethal as heroin is if an overdose is taken. The reason that there are fewer methadone overdoses than heroin overdoses is twofold - the "purity" of the methadone is constant, and tolerance is monitored by the nurses who administer it. An opiate naive person who buys a bottle of methadone on the street could overdose, just as easily as they could overdose on heroin.

Methadone Maintenance Treatment programs are often used as lifelong substitutes for heroin. Methadone detox programs use methadone in the short term to ease withdrawal symptoms and taper down to no opiate use at all. MMT programs on the other hand are designed to stabilize the addict at a set dosage so they are able to resume normal life function. The goal is stability, not detoxification. MMT programs have people who have used methadone for decades, there is no pressure to get them "clean" because that's not the goal.

For the record, methadone does get you high. When I was on it, my own experience was similar to snorting a small amount of heroin. The opiate warmth was definitely there. That's why suboxone treatment is so heavily pushed now - there's a general idea that a person should not be able to enjoy their addiction. Even suboxone though can get a non addict high.

That being said, I still believe that what a person puts into their body is their own business, even if it hurts their body. And for the record, most problems caused by heroin use, aren't actually caused by stable heroin use, but rather things like overdose, needle sharing, and unsafe, unregulated adulterants. The opioid itself is not the main problem. If you compare the effects of opiates (dependence, constipation, menstrual irregularity, infertility, loss of sex drive, sadness, cognitive impairment) with the effects of adulterants (collapsed veins, tetanus, abscesses, damage to the heart, lungs, liver and brain) it would seem to me that legalizing heroin and regulating what can be added to it would mean that the only long term effects are non-life-threatening.

Short-term effects
Apart from overdosing, the major problem of short-term use of any opiate is the way it is used. For example, injecting heroin can result in skin, heart and lung infections, and diseases such as hepatitis and HIV.
Long-term effects

In its pure form, heroin is relatively non-toxic to the body, causing little damage to body tissue and other organs. However, there are some long-term effects, including dependence, constipation, menstrual irregularity and infertility in women, loss of sex drive in men, intense sadness and cognitive impairment.
Many of the other long-term problems may be the result of other factors, such as the person's poor general self-care, drug impurities and contaminants, and blood-borne viruses.
Heroin is usually a mixture of pure heroin and other substances, such as caffeine and sugar. Additives can be highly poisonous. They can cause collapsed veins, tetanus, abscesses and damage to the heart, lungs, liver and brain.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 97

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 9:08:54 PM

kittinSol

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Make skag free.

DISCUSS.

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Post #: 98

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 11:25:11 PM

Brain

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Not so in the future - pick the age you want.

Living Forever: The Longevity Revolution
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4336018714668472419#

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

You get 70 years to do what you want with life and then it's gone.

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 99

RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/6/2010 11:28:45 PM

GreedyTop

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~FR~

that last post made me think: "SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!"

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