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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 2:11:14 AM

Dubbelganger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think our biggest disconnect is that you think that addiction and insanity/dysfunction are intertwined. That if someone is a heroin addict, they will be dysfunctional, even if the heroin they use is legal and easily acquired. I disagree. I've personally known functional methadone addicts.

You really need to do some research and see the damage heroin does to the body...should I post some again? We are talking heroin here not methadone. As I've stated before methadone is for rehabilitation of addicts not a life long substitute.

The two drugs are different…one deadly… the other much less so. Again we are talking free heroin not methadone. Given a choice which do you think the addict would take. If they supplied free methadone to addicts I would be all for it… So methadone does not enter into the heart of our discussion.

Butch

How about morphine? Is morphine as debilitating as heroin?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 3:37:06 AM

LadyEllen

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ORIGINAL: kdsub
It is unworkable and unethical to kill people simply because you do not want to commit them to a sanitarium on a long term basis... even if it is for the rest of their lives. There would be no difference in cost and it would be more humane. You are doing no one a favor in guaranteeing them a painful life and an expensive end with no benefit to anyone.

Butch

I wonder how this stacks up against the notion of the death sentence for certain offences in preference to a lifetime of imprisonment?

Falling victim to heroin addiction, more than less likely as a consequence of psychological and/or environmental suffering, warrants an intervention requiring a lifetime of confinement and suffering - whereas murder, for instance, warrants a quick and painless death by lethal injection.

And one might ask too, whether such intervention in the case of heroin addiction is perceived as more, less or equally warranted where the user is one of those rare, at least in perception, high functioning addicts?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 4:10:53 AM

Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger
How about morphine? Is morphine as debilitating as heroin?

Only when it's used for fun. The chemical composition changes when it's used for pain relief.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 6/7/2010 4:11:09 AM >

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 4:26:06 AM

LadyEllen

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How so Elisabella?

Its just interesting you say that - I'm potentially one of those that might be confined to a sanitarium what with being addicted to opiate painkillers the last nearly ten years (arthritis, great fun) and what might be considered high functioning at that, but its something I've noticed that if the pain is particularly bad then any "high" is absent, whilst there is some "high" if the pain isnt so bad. Its a balancing act that can be quite interesting!

And for anyone interested, the pain is still there either way - it doesnt get rid of the pain at all, it just somehow makes it less important.

As far as I was aware, heroin is the same stuff as morphine?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 4:29:56 AM

Elisabella

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*grins* I was being facetious. And yeah, they're pretty much identical except heroin acts faster and is more potent.. Have fun in the sanitarium love.

"Morphine" as it is commonly referred to, is morphine sulfate. Heroin is diacetyl morphine. That is, heroin is simply morphine with an acetyl molecule attached.

In terms of effects, they are exactly the same -- and medically interchangeable -- except for dosage. In fact, they are both converted to the same form of morphine when they get into the body.

The only significant difference between them is that the acetyl molecule allows heroin to cross the blood-brain barrier more quickly than ordinary morphine. The result is that, in terms of dosage, heroin is about three times stronger. That is, one grain of heroin equals about three grains of morphine. Otherwise, they are identical and there is no significant difference that would justify heroin being completely illegal (Schedule I) while morphine is used routinely in medicine. (Schedule II) They can be used interchangeably as long as medical personnel follow standard practices of medical care.

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 5:09:00 AM

eyesopened

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I agree with Thompsonx that people do not choose to abuse drugs based on whether or not that substance is legal.

I suppose it would be one thing if addiction only effected the addict. Addiction touches others in more ways than just crimes committed to obtain the money. While I don't agree that being an addict should be treated as a crime I can't help but to think of the pregnant addict, the child addict, the effect addiction has to the quality of life for all the people who love the addicted person.

Heroin is but one substance. I suppose giving heroin to the addict is one way to keep them from committing crimes but what about giving meth to meth addicts? At least heroin is a depressant and the addicts tend to be passive when high but what about the methamphetimine addict who is not such a calm, submissive sort?

One of the reasons why substances were made illegal initially was because of the effect the addiction had on families. I cannot bear the thought of one more baby being born in misery because it is addicted to meth or crack or heroin. I cannot bear the thought of one more baby given coacine in it's formula so it will stop crying and need less to eat. I cannot bear the thought of one more child being left in a hot car to have its brains cooked because a nodded out heroin addict "forgot" the child was still strapped in the car seat. How will giving out free drugs stop these things from happening?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 6:15:52 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

I will say that I feel Kurt Cobain's suicide was a tragedy, but he died on his own terms after a very productive life as one of the most influential icons of a new musical movement.

A very productive life...he was 27. And he killed himself. Somehow I doubt his parents are comforted by the fact that he is now "one of the most influential icons" I am betting they just wish they had their little boy back.

If this is an example of why we should be giving addicts heroin instead of trying to get them to quit, then I wish you a lot of luck.

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 7:58:31 AM

calamitysandra

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi
If this is an example of why we should be giving addicts heroin instead of trying to get them to quit, then I wish you a lot of luck.

While I agree with you on Curt Cobain, thishereboi, let me say it once more:

The help to quit route is the one that is taken first, second, third, and so forth.
Giving out heroin is something that becomes an option way, way down track. And by the way, this does not mean that there is no longer help to quit available.

Curt was far from the point at which he would be eligible for such programs.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 6/7/2010 7:59:14 AM >

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 2:12:55 PM

Moonhead

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That said, it isn't like the whiney little git died from an overdose, is it?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 3:59:35 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I will say that I feel Kurt Cobain's suicide was a tragedy, but he died on his own terms after a very productive life as one of the most influential icons of a new musical movement.

A very productive life...he was 27. And he killed himself. Somehow I doubt his parents are comforted by the fact that he is now "one of the most influential icons" I am betting they just wish they had their little boy back.

If this is an example of why we should be giving addicts heroin instead of trying to get them to quit, then I wish you a lot of luck.

Yes, he had an incredibly productive life, if you measure productivity by his accomplishments and not the duration of his life.

At what point do his parents wishes for him outweigh his own wishes for himself?

"It's better to burn out than fade away" seems pretty clear to me. Considering he killed himself with a shotgun it's sort of obvious it was intentional. Oh but maybe he could have lived, and now he can like, play his "greatest hits" catalogue in Vegas. I bet he'd find that incredibly fulfilling.

For the record I'm not in favor of giving addicts heroin OR trying to get them to quit. I'm in favor of letting people do what they want to do, which doesn't require handing them drugs on a silver platter or forcibly preventing them from using them.

But as long as there's some "war on drugs" going on making drugs exponentially more dangerous and expensive, I guess free shit is a consolation prize.

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 4:33:46 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

~FR~

I agree with Thompsonx that people do not choose to abuse drugs based on whether or not that substance is legal.

I suppose it would be one thing if addiction only effected the addict. Addiction touches others in more ways than just crimes committed to obtain the money. While I don't agree that being an addict should be treated as a crime I can't help but to think of the pregnant addict, the child addict, the effect addiction has to the quality of life for all the people who love the addicted person.

Heroin is but one substance. I suppose giving heroin to the addict is one way to keep them from committing crimes but what about giving meth to meth addicts? At least heroin is a depressant and the addicts tend to be passive when high but what about the methamphetimine addict who is not such a calm, submissive sort?

One of the reasons why substances were made illegal initially was because of the effect the addiction had on families. I cannot bear the thought of one more baby being born in misery because it is addicted to meth or crack or heroin. I cannot bear the thought of one more baby given coacine in it's formula so it will stop crying and need less to eat. I cannot bear the thought of one more child being left in a hot car to have its brains cooked because a nodded out heroin addict "forgot" the child was still strapped in the car seat. How will giving out free drugs stop these things from happening?

Short answer - it won't stop these things from happening any more than prohibition has stopped these things from happening.

I don't think there will ever be a time when there aren't irresponsible parents or violent people. That's part of the tragedy of life. And I think that irresponsible parents and violent people should be punished to the full extent of the law.

I've never used methamphetamine or known anyone who has, so I can't really comment on it. Personally I think it's a dirty drug and wouldn't touch it, but it exists, and it's not going away. There are people who get violent when drunk, people who drive when drunk and kill families, people who use alcohol as a way to facilitate rape - and last century, people decided that the reason these things were happening is because of the alcohol, not because of the person. So they banned it. And people started dying from bathtub liquor, mafia corruption seeped into police and government, and strangely enough people kept drinking alcohol and doing stupid things when under the influence of it.

As it is now, drug education is based in abstinence only policy and consists of "This is bad. Don't do it." There's no emphasis on responsible use, so drug users sort of learn as they go along what works, they get their information from other drug users rather than learning the facts, and they slip into very bad habits, as well as a sense of desperation. There's a canyon of disconnect between normal society and drug users, because of the criminal element, and the fact that by default all of a user's friends are users means they've become part of a dangerous subculture and think less of doing stupid things. IMO drug prohibition has done more to hurt society than to help it.

I doubt I'll be able to convince you of that, but at the very least, the tip of the iceberg is that the war on drugs has been going on for decades and the results are skyrocketing incarceration rates, neighborhoods more or less owned by violent gangs, the creation of many designer drugs that are more dangerous than the organic stuff originally banned, and the drugs themselves are more dangerous due to inconsistent purity and dangerous adulterants.

Do you honestly think if we give the war on drugs enough time it will actually eradicate drug use? Maybe 20 years from now? We'll both still be alive, presumably. If the war on drugs has won in 2030, if there aren't any more addicts, or drug dealers, or drug related gang violence, I will apologize and eat my words. If it hasn't, I'll give it til 2040. Then 2050. Then 2060 but I'll probably be dead by then so it won't really matter, but if you're still alive in 2060 you can stop by my grave and write "I told you so" on it with a marker.

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 7:25:50 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

I cannot bear the thought of one more baby being born in misery because it is addicted to meth or crack or heroin.

That brings up another question I have. What are they going to do with the female addicts who are still young enough that they might want kids? Do you let them go ahead and get pregnant and the baby can just deal with it or are you going to make her stop using if she wants kids? Or sterilize her is she doesn't want to stop? And after the child is born, is she going to be able to care for it?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 10:12:10 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I cannot bear the thought of one more baby being born in misery because it is addicted to meth or crack or heroin.

That brings up another question I have. What are they going to do with the female addicts who are still young enough that they might want kids? Do you let them go ahead and get pregnant and the baby can just deal with it or are you going to make her stop using if she wants kids? Or sterilize her is she doesn't want to stop? And after the child is born, is she going to be able to care for it?

Probably the same thing they do to female alcoholics who drink while pregnant.

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/7/2010 11:43:33 PM

Vendaval

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Fast Reply-

I know of cases where babies were taken into custody at birth because of abusive/addict mothers. As a society, we all pay for the cost of children born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or born already addicted.

http://www.drugrehab.co.uk/FAQ-heroin.htm

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/8/2010 1:35:27 AM

Elisabella

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nevermind shouldn't snark at that

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/8/2010 4:38:59 AM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I cannot bear the thought of one more baby being born in misery because it is addicted to meth or crack or heroin.

That brings up another question I have. What are they going to do with the female addicts who are still young enough that they might want kids? Do you let them go ahead and get pregnant and the baby can just deal with it or are you going to make her stop using if she wants kids? Or sterilize her is she doesn't want to stop? And after the child is born, is she going to be able to care for it?

Again. I seriously believe you are thinking of the "wrong" kind of addicts in relation to this program.
They are mostly no longer young enough, nor is their body in any shape to sustain a pregnancy in any case.

The addiction history they come with is measured in decades.

As bad as this sounds, they are the walking, talking dead. Well, mostly the stumbling, slurring dead, but anyway.

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/8/2010 4:50:47 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I cannot bear the thought of one more baby being born in misery because it is addicted to meth or crack or heroin.

That brings up another question I have. What are they going to do with the female addicts who are still young enough that they might want kids? Do you let them go ahead and get pregnant and the baby can just deal with it or are you going to make her stop using if she wants kids? Or sterilize her is she doesn't want to stop? And after the child is born, is she going to be able to care for it?

Probably the same thing they do to female alcoholics who drink while pregnant.

I wasn't aware of a program that gave free alcohol to female alcoholics. So tell me what do they about it then?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/8/2010 5:12:47 AM

eyesopened

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I'm just asking questions. I don't have any answers. But my point was that drug addiction is not limited to the addict him/herself. Addiction reaches all of us eventually in one form or another.

What would be nice is to identify what makes a person an addict in the first place. How do some folks (like me) drink on occassion and enjoy a nice buzz once or twice a year and never have any need for alcohol? How do some people get addicted to a substance almost from the very first experience?

A friend from high school had a brother who came home from VietNam addicted to herion. He told us that the problem with herion was that the very first high was so wonderful that he was taking hit after hit chasing after that same experience that he knew logically he would never have again. By the way, my friend was from a very wealthy family and they gave their son money to buy his drugs so he wouldn't steal. My friend was so dismayed at the amount of time, attention, and money her parents spent keeping him supplied and out of jail that she became depressed. Her brother committed suicide. The parents were distraught and Kathy felt like she did not exist to them. She committed suicide shortly afterward. She was 19.

California's (and many other states) biggest problem isn't heroin, it's methamphetamine. Often said to be more addictive than heroin. Even passing laws to restrict the sale of meth cooking ingredients, the meth is now cooked in Mexico and brought accross the border (that should be open..sheesh). I lost my best friend to meth. That drug destroys the brain so quickly. One major side effect is paranoid schizophrenia. My friend was lost in a elusional world of evil voices and visions of crawling walls. I was powerless to help her.

There is so much more pain and suffering than just the addict themselves. What can we do?

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/8/2010 5:14:43 AM

LadyEllen

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THB - here's one for you. Last time I claimed unemployment benefits, about 13 years ago, one of the questions on the form was "do you need an alcoholic drink before 10am each day?". From what I've been told since, apparently we in the UK pay people extra welfare benefits if theyre alcoholics, presumably to cover the cost of their addiction.

Do I want to be paying for someone to get pissed? No. Do I think it might be reasonable to slip someone a fiver a day (yes folks, its that cheap here) to help them with their addiction? Not really either - but then we all know that treatment costs a lot more even where its available, and what is available in that way is laughable. So we slip them the fiver in preference to having them thieve booze or need rehab treatment we're not prepared to pay for.

And then we want to wag our fingers at others, whose chosen substance of abuse is not alcohol, for their "immorality" and wag again at those who, having long experience of such addicts, tell us that what we're doing now isnt working for their "lack of ethics"?

Drug policies need to be looked at again - I dont know about there, but here the law that prohibits drug abuse was revised to its current state in the early 70s - as a direct consequence of what occurred in the late 60s. As such they are aimed at recreational drug use and therefore unsuited to the modern situation we have, which is that the vast majority of drug use is down to drugs providing an escape from poor environments and/or self treatment for psychological problems - both of which we are not prepared to acknowledge or deal with.

Yet again, who here has the moral high ground? Who can claim high ethical standards? It is we who have helped produce the seedbed, and watered it well, for the modern drug problems of society, so we might be a little more cautious about what we say of the crop.

E

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RE: Free heroin gives good results - 6/8/2010 6:55:02 AM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

...
What would be nice is to identify what makes a person an addict in the first place. How do some folks (like me) drink on occassion and enjoy a nice buzz once or twice a year and never have any need for alcohol? How do some people get addicted to a substance almost from the very first experience?
...

Yes, that would be nice indeed. I am all in favour of financing research in that direction, as well as research for solutions that would help with quitting.
Problem is, what do we do in the meantime, while we wait for a breakthrough?

I am very sorry for your friend, and I have no standard solution that will help people who are in horrible, traumatic situations because of the addiction of family and friends.
People affected by the drug use of a loved one, need help, as much as does the addict.
I want to see the stigma attached to an addicted child, parent, brother or sister gone, so families will no longer try to hush up the problems, and will be able to come out into the open and receive help.
I want to see programs instituted and well financed dedicated to such help.
That would be a much better use for the War against Drug money than the current.

As I said before, I am not advocating simply supplying every addict with his/her drug of choice.
But I truly do feel that there is a small percentage of long time users, who, according to current research and experience have no longer a chance of quitting.
For all purposes, those people are terminally ill, they are dying, and today, there is nothing we can do to change that.
For those addicts, and for those alone, free, clean heroin, clean needles, a safe place to use, and doctors supervision is a mercy.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 6/8/2010 6:59:33 AM >

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