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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/12/2010 3:33:28 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Rule;

I was being a bit sarcastic and smart-assy when referring to the regrowth of foreskins.

The Jewish exodus was hampered by high taxes on emigration and inability to transfer money out of germany, and difficulty locating receptive countries. Other factors to be considered were the duress of the Nuremberg Laws and the fright of Kristallnacht. reference here

Are you familiar with the voyage of the emigrants on the St Louis and the refusal of Cuba and the United States to grant visas? Reference here.

quote:

As I already said in another thread: Abrahamic Jews are stubborn. They persist in opposing the Divine. <SNIP> The Divine sent them Saint Paul to admonish them to stop their practice of circumcision and they opposed Paul.


I wonder if you have this right, Rule. Here are some quotes from Paul to the Romans:

Romans 2: 25 "For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law;"

It is of value.

Romans 3:1 "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God."

Its benefit is great.

Romans 3:29 " Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

The Law is not nullified. And tis the same God.

Romans 4: 11 " ...and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised."

Circumcision was a seal of Abraham's righteousness and faith. And oh btw, the God of Abraham seems to be the same God of Paul. So, who is the pagan god of the Jews to whom you frequently refer? And what is the basis for your claim that god is offended by circumcision?

Just asking.


_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/12/2010 4:13:39 PM   
ModeratorSixteen


Posts: 1275
Status: offline 		We have just had a recent circumcision thread,so let's not continue it here again.Please focus on the topic of the op.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/12/2010 4:55:20 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
You know nothing about my relationship with the Spirit I call "god"

Do you really think you’re a unique snowflake like heartcream? What you’re talking about is incredibly common, there have already been a couple of functional MRI studies on it. Don’t you wonder why, if this internal experience has an external source and you were gaining actual knowledge, you all disagree with each other?  If this knowledge was coming from a deity, shouldn’t spectral evidence be reliable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
I repeat, never have asked anyone to accept my position, only to grant me the peace to follow my own path.

Of course you’ve asked people to accept your position you even just did it in this thread, you asked people to except that your god is pro-science. I’m very much in favor of your being able to think and discuss whatever you want. But that also means that you can’t expect me not to speak up when I disagree with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
If I say "in my state there isn't any personal income tax"  what would that mean?  That I claim exclusive ownership to the entire state Florida?

I’m wondering if you’re missing my point, here it is again:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
The whole "my god" thing bothers me because while most of us get that we aren't always right and completely perfect some people invent the concept of a being who holds all their same views and positions and is completely perfect. I've seen too many examples where that turns into people thinking they are infallible by proxy.    


I think that there’s some equivocation going on in your example, a more accurate one would be that upon being informed that there isn’t a personal income tax in Florida you responded: Whatever, in my Florida there is a personal income tax.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
I get it.  You don't like me.  I don't care.

That's not the case. There are certainly some people around here who attribute horrible positions of theirs to god and I judge them for it. You're not one of them, by the positions you've claimed for "your" deity in the past I think you're generally a decent person.



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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/12/2010 5:15:01 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Edited to add: A mod has spoken. I wonder whether I should delete this post. I put a lot of effort into writing it.

Hm. I think that I will delete part of it and paste all of it in a CM-mail to vincentML and any other interested parties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I was being a bit sarcastic and smart-assy when referring to the regrowth of foreskins.

Mm, I know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The Jewish exodus was hampered by high taxes on emigration and inability to transfer money out of germany, and difficulty locating receptive countries. Other factors to be considered were the duress of the Nuremberg Laws and the fright of Kristallnacht. reference here

Are you familiar with the voyage of the emigrants on the St Louis and the refusal of Cuba and the United States to grant visas? Reference here.

Yes, I am familiar with that horror story.

Indeed, the people behind the genocide on the WWII Jews were not as benevolent as was the Inquisition by the Spanish people, not so? The whole of Europe was a trap.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/12/2010 5:20:28 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 3:08:20 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
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From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Do you really think you’re a unique snowflake like heartcream?

From what I have read I tend to think heartcream and I are as different as night and day.

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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 6:21:49 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Indeed, the people behind the genocide on the WWII Jews were not as benevolent as was the Inquisition by the Spanish people, not so? The whole of Europe was a trap.


At first glance you are correct. However, the Jews encountered similar problems in both periods. No place to run. The whole of europe may have been a trap, as you say, but the world had grown larger and the failure of the St. Louis demonstrates that nothing much had changed from the previous period except size of available but deniable safe harbor.

As for the OP, if I have not stated it clearly before, I think Hawking's premise is absurd despite my disinclinations toward religious belief. Both science and religion have proven to be easily manipulated whores to Power and greed pretty much as Firm and eyesopened previously stated.

I am off this thread. Bye.

I am pondering your deleted message and will reply soon.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 6:54:56 AM   
ShoreBound149


Posts: 622
Joined: 7/2/2009
Status: offline 		Science will never defeat religion.  Nor will religion defeat science.

Why science will not win:
There are billions of people who worship a religious God.  They will never (yes never) be converted to worshipping a math equation.

Why religion will not win:
There are too many religions with too many variations on moral guidelines and varying philosophies on who or what God is.

Much like yesterday's USA/England match it will remain a draw.  One may gain an advantage at times over the other but the goalie on the other side will invariably let one get past and even out the match.

And then some unforeseen cosmic event will destroy the planet.

I am smarter than Steven Hawking on this topic.

Thread over.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 7:31:38 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149

Science will never defeat religion.  Nor will religion defeat science.

Why science will not win:
There are billions of people who worship a religious God.  They will never (yes never) be converted to worshipping a math equation.

Why religion will not win:
There are too many religions with too many variations on moral guidelines and varying philosophies on who or what God is.

Much like yesterday's USA/England match it will remain a draw.  One may gain an advantage at times over the other but the goalie on the other side will invariably let one get past and even out the match.

And then some unforeseen cosmic event will destroy the planet.

I am smarter than Steven Hawking on this topic.

Thread over.


I don't see why there has to be one or the other. From where I'm standing....they serve different needs....meaning they can and do exist side by side.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 7:42:51 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Science will never be popular, my view of this is based on the difference in the way a priest will act as opposed to a doctor when giving bad news.

If for example you are going to die the doctor will just tell you the harsh truth, at the end of the conversation you'll be in no doubt as to how the doctor sees your future. If however your soul is at stake from the various things you've done in life then the priest will always try to convince you there is some possibility of redemption. People always like good news.

As an individual what would you prefer the harsh facts or the mollycoddling?

Answering this question for me determines whether you are atheist, agnostic, or deluded.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 6/13/2010 7:52:45 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 8:35:58 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Do you really think you’re a unique snowflake like heartcream?

From what I have read I tend to think heartcream and I are as different as night and day.


I do know how to use a lawnmower and do so, and I dont need to be degraded to get love. Then again is night and day really that different?

< Message edited by heartcream -- 6/13/2010 8:59:20 AM >

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Every single line means something.
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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 10:15:44 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Do you really think you’re a unique snowflake like heartcream?

From what I have read I tend to think heartcream and I are as different as night and day.
I do know how to use a lawnmower and do so, and I dont need to be degraded to get love. Then again is night and day really that different?


I know how to use a lawnmower and I have never beed degraded.  Not sure how that's on topic.  Day and night really are different.  One is not better than the other. 

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 11:27:35 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149
Why science will not win:
There are billions of people who worship a religious God.  They will never (yes never) be converted to worshipping a math equation.

1. Science has nothing to do with worshiping math equations, you do understand that don't you?

2. While people continually deconverting or moving to more vague or vestigial beliefs, I agree with you that many of the people who's religious beliefs place them in opposition to science won't change their positions. However, that won't prevent science from "winning" because those people won't live forever.

"The study, based on a 14 years of data from 10,500 households, found that parents played a powerful role in the transmission of religious belief. But even if both parents held strong beliefs, there was only a 50-50 chance that their children would carry on believing.In houses where only one parent had strong feelings about faith, children were much less likely to believe. On the other hand, two non-religious parents had no trouble passing on their lack of faith. In effect, attendance fell away steadily with each generation." http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/aug/16/religion.news

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 11:43:23 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
If you cared truly about the human body and wanted to check out the harm caused by mri's I am sure your big brain can figure out how to do that. I am so not in the mood at the moment.

Besides this being a red herring it's my understanding that functional MRI's are safe so long as you don't have metal in your body that the magnets will pull out. I could understand if you simply didn't want to talk to me because it wasn't "fun". But considering the several long posts you've written to me lately that doesn't seem to be the case. So this leaves me thinking that there must be another reason that you won't so much as paste a link to back up your assertion, perhaps you don't have a leg to stand on?

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 3:28:40 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Well my posts havent been that long now have they?

mri news

A medical doctor told me the exact problem with mri's but I cant remember the terminology he used. When I speak to him again I will ask him and get back to you on that.

Look if you need an mri, go get one, I would and have, but propping mri's up as a way to say you can see everything inside of you is not the total picture now is it?

An mri can hurl objects around the room so yeah not the safest thing in the world and to get one simply to see inside of you is also dumb. Add to the fact they do not show everything inside of you.

As for snowflakes, how wonderful and unique they are and when you look out on 4 feet of snow imagine all the bazgillions of them, each one different. What is your fear and loathing about uniqueness? Do you hate the snowflakes that twinkles out amongst the crowd of white?

I suppose by talking to you I am somehow hoping to see some sort of shift besides the staunch position I seem to endlessly find you in.

< Message edited by heartcream -- 6/13/2010 3:29:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 3:33:56 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149
Why science will not win:
There are billions of people who worship a religious God.  They will never (yes never) be converted to worshipping a math equation.

1. Science has nothing to do with worshiping math equations, you do understand that don't you?

2. While people continually deconverting or moving to more vague or vestigial beliefs, I agree with you that many of the people who's religious beliefs place them in opposition to science won't change their positions. However, that won't prevent science from "winning" because those people won't live forever.

"The study, based on a 14 years of data from 10,500 households, found that parents played a powerful role in the transmission of religious belief. But even if both parents held strong beliefs, there was only a 50-50 chance that their children would carry on believing.In houses where only one parent had strong feelings about faith, children were much less likely to believe. On the other hand, two non-religious parents had no trouble passing on their lack of faith. In effect, attendance fell away steadily with each generation." http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/aug/16/religion.news


Can you imagine a time when death can be gone past by revving up to the Speed of Light? Imagine.

Science and religion will become one as will most of everything worthwhile. Intent will make the difference. Intent to do ill with science will not go well, and people trying to shove a nasty agenda down the throat of another in the name of religion wont work anymore either.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 3:35:51 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I know how to use a lawnmower and I have never beed degraded.  Not sure how that's on topic.  Day and night really are different.  One is not better than the other. 


You went there, you didnt need to but you did. I read your profile so that is where that came from.



_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/13/2010 4:39:30 PM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		My profile is public.  Anyone can read it.  My profile says nothing about not having the ability to use a lawnmower.  I said, when describing my ideal Master, that he would know how to use a lawmower and be happy with women doing "women's work" and men doing "men's work".   Do you have a problem with that?  If you interpret my relationship as one where I am degraded, you are very mistaken.  Did you skip over this part: "He said it today "Enrich and Complete" the meaning behind our relationship.  i know that He enriches my life and provides a feeling of completeness that can only become more as we move toward our shared goals.  My ideal Master started out as just that... an ideal.  Never in my wildest dreams did i think that Ideal would be fully embodied in InkedMaster.  i am blessed. "

I did not attack you.  I said I believe you and I to be as different as night and day.  Your little thread derailment and attempt to somehow be mean(?) or something makes no sense and is not on topic.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 6/13/2010 4:43:20 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 12:52:49 AM   
ShoreBound149


Posts: 622
Joined: 7/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

1. Science has nothing to do with worshiping math equations, you do understand that don't you?

My interpretation of Hawking's statement was that eventually science will prove that there is no God. (Win).  My point was that even with scientific proof (math), a significant number of zealots will always believe in some form of God regardless of what the science says.  How many people "ignore the facts" today regarding countless other topics?

quote:

"The study, based on a 14 years of data from 10,500 households

I believe the study is an accurate reflection of the state of religion in the UK and US.  However, I believe a significant portion of the billions of people that worship a God in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Central & South America and many in the US and UK will continue to do so regardless if science proves that God doesn't exist.
I'm no scientist but isn't proving that something doesn't exist really hard?  Let alone something that 2 billion people reeeeeaaalllly want to believe.

1.Science will never prove to the satisifaction of all the peoples of the earth that God doesn't exist.

2.The religous folks will never inspire all of science to believe that their version of where we came from is accurate.  In part because of the number of different versions of where we came from that exist.

Final score:  No Winner

These CM boards are certainly making my middle of the night piss and rooting through the fridge for meatballs take much longer. 



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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 5:04:29 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149
My interpretation of Hawking's statement was that eventually science will prove that there is no God. (Win).  My point was that even with scientific proof (math), a significant number of zealots will always believe in some form of God regardless of what the science says.  How many people "ignore the facts" today regarding countless other topics?

Final score:  No Winner


Why not look at a way that everyone is a winner?  What do we "win" by the knowledge ther is no God?  This assumes of course that everyone defines God in exactly the same way.  Yes, please tell me what is won.

GotSteel points out that the "god experience" is nothing more than brain activity.  This is good stuff.  Now, what do we do with that information?  Do we say "Yea!  I won!"  or do we look further into the power of our own brains and see how we can further understand this marvelous organ and perhaps use this information for the good of humankind?  Or is it enough to say "Yea! I won! I'm better than you... nana nana boo hoo stick your head in doo doo?"

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 5:38:30 AM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		The day we use logic and reason to analyze and resolve real world problems as opposed to reliance on a figment of our collective imaginations to guide our behavior, then I'd say as a species we have won the battle, if not the war for our very survival.

quote:

GotSteel points out that the "god experience" is nothing more than brain activity. This is good stuff. Now, what do we do with that information? Do we say "Yea! I won!" or do we look further into the power of our own brains and see how we can further understand this marvelous organ and perhaps use this information for the good of humankind?


Your statement above made absolutely no sense. It sounds to me as if you are grasping for straws at this point - looking for any reason to justify your belief in God, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

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Profile   Post #: 200
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