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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 10:34:13 AM   
heartcream


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

The day we use logic and reason to analyze and resolve real world problems as opposed to reliance on a figment of our collective imaginations to guide our behavior, then I'd say as a species we have won the battle, if not the war for our very survival.

quote:

GotSteel points out that the "god experience" is nothing more than brain activity. This is good stuff. Now, what do we do with that information? Do we say "Yea! I won!" or do we look further into the power of our own brains and see how we can further understand this marvelous organ and perhaps use this information for the good of humankind?


Your statement above made absolutely no sense. It sounds to me as if you are grasping for straws at this point - looking for any reason to justify your belief in God, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.


I dont know what or who eyesopened calls or feels is God but I think it is funny you have evidence to the contrary of her beliefs. Really? Seriously?

Use logic and reason but use all of yourself as well. Putting logic and reason on the highest horse says more about you than anything else. Balanced in the heart there is room for other things, like feelings. Do you think feelings/intuitions hold no evidence or...?

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 10:35:27 AM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

My profile is public.  Anyone can read it.  My profile says nothing about not having the ability to use a lawnmower.  I said, when describing my ideal Master, that he would know how to use a lawmower and be happy with women doing "women's work" and men doing "men's work".   Do you have a problem with that?  If you interpret my relationship as one where I am degraded, you are very mistaken.  Did you skip over this part: "He said it today "Enrich and Complete" the meaning behind our relationship.  i know that He enriches my life and provides a feeling of completeness that can only become more as we move toward our shared goals.  My ideal Master started out as just that... an ideal.  Never in my wildest dreams did i think that Ideal would be fully embodied in InkedMaster.  i am blessed. "

I did not attack you.  I said I believe you and I to be as different as night and day.  Your little thread derailment and attempt to somehow be mean(?) or something makes no sense and is not on topic.


You were being a bitch, I know it, you know it so dont dance around it. Ta.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 12:05:23 PM   
ShoreBound149


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149
My interpretation of Hawking's statement was that eventually science will prove that there is no God. (Win).  My point was that even with scientific proof (math), a significant number of zealots will always believe in some form of God regardless of what the science says.  How many people "ignore the facts" today regarding countless other topics?

Final score:  No Winner


Why not look at a way that everyone is a winner?  What do we "win" by the knowledge ther is no God?  This assumes of course that everyone defines God in exactly the same way.  Yes, please tell me what is won.


Excellent point.  I actually do look at it that way.  I was using the language that Hawking used.  It was his central point in his commentary the science woud "win" over religion eventually. 

It was the crippled genius that was being child like.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 1:03:39 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

The day we use logic and reason to analyze and resolve real world problems as opposed to reliance on a figment of our collective imaginations to guide our behavior, then I'd say as a species we have won the battle, if not the war for our very survival.

quote:

GotSteel points out that the "god experience" is nothing more than brain activity. This is good stuff. Now, what do we do with that information? Do we say "Yea! I won!" or do we look further into the power of our own brains and see how we can further understand this marvelous organ and perhaps use this information for the good of humankind?


Your statement above made absolutely no sense. It sounds to me as if you are grasping for straws at this point - looking for any reason to justify your belief in God, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.




What evidence to the contrary? The MRI data? We can cause a person to think they see flashing lights, by stimulating the brain...does that mean the flashing lights on the side of the road do not exist?


Or what does "creating life" in a lab proove, other than life can be created?



You really have no evidence except for "really smart people we admire disbelieve in God, so we do too".

Which isn't science....

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 2:48:46 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream


I dont know what or who eyesopened calls or feels is God but I think it is funny you have evidence to the contrary of her beliefs. Really? Seriously?

Use logic and reason but use all of yourself as well. Putting logic and reason on the highest horse says more about you than anything else. Balanced in the heart there is room for other things, like feelings. Do you think feelings/intuitions hold no evidence or...?

hc, I take it that you don't believe in Santa Clause. Do you have any evidence that he doesn't exist? No, but that is not a requirement for disbelief. You don't believe in Santa Clause because there is no evidence or reasoning that would lead you to conclude otherwise. Evidence that something doesn't exist is not required for disbelief. You can't prove a negative.

If you are trying to suggest that people who don't believe in dieties are incapable of passion, altruism, love, empathy, or other feelings, then the failure of logic and reason is yours, not mine.

The problem I have with eyesopened position, is that like many theists, she just hasn't thought things through. She claims she is not religious, but defends religion in all of these threads. She says she has her own personal God and belief system, and that everyone is entitled to their own if they so desire. So I assume her God is different than the Christian God, because she claims she is not a Christian. There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet. Are they all entitled to their own diety? And who will referee when these dieties disagree? And more importantly, who gets caught in the crossfire as people take up arms to defend their beliefs? And what about when her own personal path toward righteousness puts her at odds with science? What about the other 7 billion people each pursuing their own path? The millions of Africans dying of AIDS because powerful Christian lobbies don't believe in distributing condoms because their God won't allow it comes to mind.

The point is, she really should spend more time thinking about the utility of such a uniquely individualistic belief system, because I can assure you that when her personal relationship with her diety clashes with somebody else's personal relationship with their diety, she better pray that neither diety is a vengeful one, or all hell might break loose.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 5:13:23 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

What evidence to the contrary? The MRI data? We can cause a person to think they see flashing lights, by stimulating the brain...does that mean the flashing lights on the side of the road do not exist?

Or what does "creating life" in a lab proove, other than life can be created?

You really have no evidence except for "really smart people we admire disbelieve in God, so we do too".

Which isn't science....

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. As I'm quite certain you don't either, I'll not waste your time asking you to explain it.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 6:19:42 PM   
heartcream


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

hc, I take it that you don't believe in Santa Clause. Do you have any evidence that he doesn't exist? No, but that is not a requirement for disbelief. You don't believe in Santa Clause because there is no evidence or reasoning that would lead you to conclude otherwise. Evidence that something doesn't exist is not required for disbelief. You can't prove a negative.

If you are trying to suggest that people who don't believe in dieties are incapable of passion, altruism, love, empathy, or other feelings, then the failure of logic and reason is yours, not mine.

The problem I have with eyesopened position, is that like many theists, she just hasn't thought things through. She claims she is not religious, but defends religion in all of these threads. She says she has her own personal God and belief system, and that everyone is entitled to their own if they so desire. So I assume her God is different than the Christian God, because she claims she is not a Christian. There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet. Are they all entitled to their own diety? And who will referee when these dieties disagree? And more importantly, who gets caught in the crossfire as people take up arms to defend their beliefs? And what about when her own personal path toward righteousness puts her at odds with science? What about the other 7 billion people each pursuing their own path? The millions of Africans dying of AIDS because powerful Christian lobbies don't believe in distributing condoms because their God won't allow it comes to mind.

The point is, she really should spend more time thinking about the utility of such a uniquely individualistic belief system, because I can assure you that when her personal relationship with her diety clashes with somebody else's personal relationship with their diety, she better pray that neither diety is a vengeful one, or all hell might break loose.


quote:

Are they all entitled to their own diety?


Yes. If someone is sincerely looking to find God what they find will be their own personal God who has the ability to relate to each of us loving manifested spirits in the exact way best suited to the individual.


quote:

And who will referee when these dieties disagree?


There will be no need for that. Love and Light is Love and Light and anything else that is against that will at long last move out of the way and let all the good people get on with it.

quote:

And more importantly, who gets caught in the crossfire as people take up arms to defend their beliefs?


Violence is not God and folks doing any violence in the name of God have the wrong god, so really not God at all.

quote:

And what about when her own personal path toward righteousness puts her at odds with science?


A path of right place and right time would not put anyone at odds with science in any detrimental way.

quote:

What about the other 7 billion people each pursuing their own path? The millions of Africans dying of AIDS because powerful Christian lobbies don't believe in distributing condoms because their God won't allow it comes to mind.


Again wrong god, not God at all. I do have something to say to this specifically but dont wish to on this forum.

quote:

The point is, she really should spend more time thinking about the utility of such a uniquely individualistic belief system, because I can assure you that when her personal relationship with her diety clashes with somebody else's personal relationship with their diety, she better pray that neither diety is a vengeful one, or all hell might break loose.


God is not vengeful at all so no worries there. It is important to note that having a unique belief system is what we all have. We all believe exactly what we believe or not. Each and everyone of us has their own unique reality in the world in that we all experience the world as individuals. The truth of it is if we are all real with ourselves and each other in the safest way possible there will be no real clashing. We can live side by side. What to look for is the so-called people on the planet presenting themselves as human and God-loving whilst pushing a horrid and evil agenda are the ones to differentiate from.

Most people have misunderstandings as to what is really going on and some of these people also have unloving intent. The ones who are ignorant and confused they can be a problem if they buy the shit the unloving ones push as reality.

Truth will out and it is not far off either. Stay tuned all will be revealed.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 7:34:56 PM   
brainiacsub


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hc, you truly live in your own utopia. I'm glad you shared it with us.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 8:15:53 PM   
Brain


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I like evidence it's illuminating.

Ancient ocean of Mars uncovered - Science Fair: Science and Space News - USATODAY.com

All told, the ocean would have covered 36% of Mars to an average depth of 1,805 feet. "Collectively, these results support the existing theories regarding extent and formation time of an ancient ocean on Mars and imply that surface conditions during that time probably allowed the occurrence of a global and active hydrosphere integrating valley networks, deltas and a vast ocean as main components of an Earth-like hydrological cycle," conclude the authors, at about the time that life was getting started in oceans on Earth.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/06/ancient-ocean-of-mars-uncovered/1







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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/14/2010 10:15:49 PM   
Brain


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This looks like a neat book to read to understand religfion better.


God Is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World--and Why Their Differences Matter


On my last visit to Jerusalem, I struck up a conversation with an elderly man in the Muslim Quarter. As a shopkeeper, he seemed keen to sell me jewelry. As a Sufi mystic, he seemed even keener to engage me in matters of the spirit. He told me that religions are human inventions, so we must avoid the temptation of worshipping Islam rather than Allah. What matters is opening yourself up to the mystery that goes by the word God, and that can be done in any religion. As he tempted me with more turquoise and silver, he asked me what I was doing in Jerusalem. When I told him I was researching a book on the world’s religions, he put down the jewelry, looked at me intently, and, placing a finger on my chest for emphasis, said, "Do not write false things about the religions."

As I wrote God is Is Not One, I came back repeatedly to this conversation. I never wavered from trying to write true things, but I knew that some of the things I was writing he would consider false.

Mystics often claim that the great religions differ only in the inessentials. They may be different paths but they are ascending the same mountain and they converge at the peak. Throughout this book I give voice to these mystics: the Daoist sage Laozi, who wrote his classic the Daodejing just before disappearing forever into the mountains; the Sufi poet Rumi, who instructs us to "gamble everything for love"; and the Christian mystic Julian of Norwich, who revels in the feminine aspects of God. But my focus is not on these spiritual superstars. It is on ordinary religious folk—the stories they tell, the doctrines they affirm, and the rituals they practice. And these stories, doctrines, and rituals could not be more different. Christians do not go on the hajj to Mecca; Jews do not affirm the doctrine of the Trinity; and neither Buddhists nor Hindus trouble themselves about sin or salvation.

Of course, religious differences trouble us, since they seem to portend, if not war itself, then at least rumors thereof. But as I researched and wrote this book I came to appreciate how opening our eyes to religious differences can help us appreciate the unique beauty of each of the great religions--the radical freedom of the Daoist wanderer, the contemplative way into death of the Buddhist monk, and the joy in the face of the divine life of the Sufi shopkeeper.

I plan to send my Sufi shopkeeper a copy of this book. I have no doubt he will disagree with parts of it. But I hope he will recognize my effort to avoid writing "false things," even when I disagree with friends. --Stephen Prothero


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Review
“Stephen Prothero has done it again. This is a powerfully-written, paradigm-shifting book. How religious differences can be a bridge of cooperation rather than a bomb of destruction is one of the most important challenges of our era, and Prothero is as good a guide as you will find.” (Eboo Patel, founder and executive director of Interfaith Youth Core and author of Acts of Faith )

“Provocative, thoughtful, fiercely intelligent and, for both believing and nonbelieving, formal and informal students of religion, a must-read.” (Booklist )

“This book could well be the most highly readable, accurate, and up-to-date introduction to the world’s major religions.” (Harvey Cox, Hollis Research Professor of Divinity, Harvard University, and author of The Future of Faith )

“A very much needed book!” (Miroslav Volf, Professor, Yale University, and author of Exclusion and Embrace )

“An urgently needed and very nicely done corrective to politically correct nonsense.” (Rodney Stark, author of Discovering God: The Origins of the Great Religions and the Evolution of Faith )

http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-One-World-Differences/dp/006157127X





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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/15/2010 4:28:58 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
The day we use logic and reason to analyze and resolve real world problems as opposed to reliance on a figment of our collective imaginations to guide our behavior, then I'd say as a species we have won the battle, if not the war for our very survival.
quote:

GotSteel points out that the "god experience" is nothing more than brain activity. This is good stuff. Now, what do we do with that information? Do we say "Yea! I won!" or do we look further into the power of our own brains and see how we can further understand this marvelous organ and perhaps use this information for the good of humankind?

Your statement above made absolutely no sense. It sounds to me as if you are grasping for straws at this point - looking for any reason to justify your belief in God, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.


It makes no sense to someone who is not willing to see without blinders or to look beyond their own bigotry.
I was saying, okay, god doesn't exist as a being (I don't believe god as a being anyway).  I am agreeing that God is nothing more than an experience generated from the stimulation of a specific part of the brain.  So, what is knowledge without application?  Knowledge without application is nothing more than trivia.  And to do these kinds of experiments for no other reason than to say "neener neener neener" is not my idea of using logic and reason to solve problems.  Why not take that knowledge and use it to solve a problem?  Could this area of the brain be partially responsible for certain mental illnesses?  Could pinpoint neurosurgery cure schizophrenia rather than using dibilitating drugs?

A person's spiritual life in and of itself is not a problem.  No one can guarantee me that removing god from humanity will make the world free from human suffering. 

See, I personally don't have a problem with science discovering that "god" is really found in the human brain.  I don't have a problem with science discovering that "god" is a principle or law of physics or form of energy or one of the many things currently undiscovered. 

Most of the time when I read these threads I see that if the majority of the atheist arguments took their show door-to-door they would be equally as annoying as the jerks who tell me I'm going to hell if I don't buy their brand of Jesus.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/15/2010 7:39:17 AM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

hc, you truly live in your own utopia. I'm glad you shared it with us.


You dont know me at all babe. I dont know where you live but if you think I live in utopia I guess you live in a really sad place. Come out in the sunshine, it is good for ya.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/15/2010 8:23:43 AM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened



It makes no sense to someone who is not willing to see without blinders or to look beyond their own bigotry.
I was saying, okay, god doesn't exist as a being (I don't believe god as a being anyway).  I am agreeing that God is nothing more than an experience generated from the stimulation of a specific part of the brain. So, what is knowledge without application?  Knowledge without application is nothing more than trivia.  And to do these kinds of experiments for no other reason than to say "neener neener neener" is not my idea of using logic and reason to solve problems.  Why not take that knowledge and use it to solve a problem? Could this area of the brain be partially responsible for certain mental illnesses? Could pinpoint neurosurgery cure schizophrenia rather than using dibilitating drugs?
A person's spiritual life in and of itself is not a problem.  No one can guarantee me that removing god from humanity will make the world free from human suffering. 

See, I personally don't have a problem with science discovering that "god" is really found in the human brain. I don't have a problem with science discovering that "god" is a principle or law of physics or form of energy or one of the many things currently undiscovered.


You are incredibly disingenuous. No one is saying "neener, neener, neener" but you. You have repeated in this post exactly what Hawkings and most atheists believe, specifically the parts I've bolded. But I am a bigot and you are not? Why are you arguing with me, Steel and others if we share the same beliefs? It's the religious folks who would take great exception to what you said here, not the atheists. You can't take the atheist position and disguise it as a half-hearted attempt to defend religion. You are going to lose credibility with both sides.

IMHO, I don't think you know what you believe, and you certainly can't defend it. Please understand, I'm not attacking you. You sound like me 15 yrs ago. The transitional step between religious zealot and atheist is the religious apologist. It's a futile, unsustainable position to hold.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/15/2010 11:56:34 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
I was saying, okay, god doesn't exist as a being (I don't believe god as a being anyway).  I am agreeing that God is nothing more than an experience generated from the stimulation of a specific part of the brain.

Welcome to Atheism?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
A person's spiritual life in and of itself is not a problem. 

I'm not sure that I'll be able to respond to this in a helpful manner because spiritual as a word is incredibly vague. If you mean ones personal relationship with god there's the whole infallible by proxy issue I was talking about earlier. Yeah your beliefs seem to be in sync with reality to the point that I'd really doubt that they would cause you problems. However, it is potentially harmful; heartcream for instance is convinced that unicorns are real.
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
No one can guarantee me that removing god from humanity will make the world free from human suffering. 

Isn't this a Nirvana fallacy?


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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/16/2010 6:22:16 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
An mri can hurl objects around the room so yeah not the safest thing in the world and to get one simply to see inside of you is also dumb.

That's like saying I shouldn't use a microwave because it could be unsafe for someone with a pacemaker. As I've already mentioned people with metal objects that will be effected in their bodies shouldn't use an MRI. However, that doesn't make an MRI anything less than perfectly safe for the rest of us.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/16/2010 7:38:31 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
And to do these kinds of experiments for no other reason than to say "neener neener neener" is not my idea of using logic and reason to solve problems.

Um, I kind of doubt that these studies to understand how the human brain functions, an understanding which will eventually have a huge medical and philosophical impact, were done just to say "neener neener neener".

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/16/2010 10:28:19 AM   
DAMIENEVIL


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science will not defeat religion just like religion wont defeat science because they are both the same thing just come at it from different areas and then the more we get into science the more like magic it is.

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