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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 1:23:48 AM

Brain

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 3:42:07 AM

eyesopened

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I guess I don't understand the word "defeated" but there appears to be people who honestly believe that religion itself is an enemy. More suffering has been handed out for purely secular, political, and egotistical reasons than has ever been handed out by 'religion'. Even the Spanish Inqusition was a brilliant political move by the king of Spain.

My God isn't the property of any specific religion nor is my God in opposition to science. My God isn't supernatural but is a part of nature. I'm convinced that God as I understand It will be one day be discovered by science. I'm also convinced that God as I understand It will not be named "god" when It is. I only wish science could hurry up and end this constant bickering.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 3:55:18 AM

MissAsylum

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agreed. I accept science as it is and in many religious works- science and scientists are accepted and held in high regard, but not the other way around. i just find it hilarious- since no "proof" has been given and you don't believe- is there any reason why you keep talking about it? move on if you think its such bs. it helps no person if they keep mulling over something they believe is trivial. You gain nothing from it but self satisfaction, which is a hollow victory. why not occupy yourself with more important matters?

< Message edited by MissAsylum -- 6/9/2010 4:01:28 AM >

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 4:02:52 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Science will never defeat religion it has not even defeated Paganism in some people's minds yet.

As long as there are people in the world some will always choose to be ignorant of scientific reality. I'm surprised Stephen Hawking would say such a thing, he has this profound faith in humanity which I just don't share.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 4:13:50 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

too much of anything is no good;

Funny I think that same thing every time I see you post another religion bashing thread. I gotta tell you brain, with your obsession on the subject, you make the JW's look like real slackers. Maybe you could give them tips on how to push your views on others

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 4:46:33 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
More suffering has been handed out for purely secular, political, and egotistical reasons than has ever been handed out by 'religion'. Even the Spanish Inqusition was a brilliant political move by the king of Spain.

The Christening of Europe
The Crusades
The Troubles in Northern Ireland
The Israeli Palestinian conflict
The French Wars of Religion/ The St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre
The Taiping Rebellion
The persecution of Christians in Africa
The Holocaust (Himmler considered himself a devout Roman Catholic)
The killing of Muslims during the Bosnian war.

The problem with your argument is that you'll say things like 'Oh Himmler he was not a real Roman Catholic he only thought he was' but something within his belief set seemed to lead to him persecuting the Jews? Religions have only started talking about tolerance now because it's in vogue. It's inherently easier to get a religious person to kill in the name of their faith because they can postpone the critical reasoning (as to why they are doing it) for their afterlife.

Nobody can ask me to kill in the name of science, i.e. kill that person over there because the teachings of Newton depend on it. I can reasonably see that no person is a threat to scientific truth.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 6/9/2010 4:52:09 AM >

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 4:51:06 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
More suffering has been handed out for purely secular, political, and egotistical reasons than has ever been handed out by 'religion'. Even the Spanish Inqusition was a brilliant political move by the king of Spain.

The Christening of Europe
The Crusades
The Troubles in Northern Ireland
The Israeli Palestinian conflict
The French Wars of Religion/ The St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre
The Taiping Rebellion
The persecution of Christians in Africa
The Holocaust (Himmler considered himself a devout Roman Catholic)
The killing of Muslims during the Bosnian war.

The problem with your argument is that you'll say things like 'Oh Himmler he was not a real Roman Catholic he only thought he was' but something within his belief set seemed to lead to him persecuting the Jews? Religions have only started talking about tolerance now because it's in vogue. It's inherently easier to get a religious person to kill in the name of their faith because they can postpone the critical reasoning (as to why they are doing it) for their afterlife.

I never have said any such thing as Himmler was not Catholic so kindly do not put words in my mouth. Try reading facts. Here's some for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 5:03:21 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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You need to go beyond, Wikipedia surely you can see that giving me a list of historic atrocities in summary format (without getting into what started such conflicts) is laziness on your behalf.

That list in itself does not support your case it would be like me saying {911}{Political}. Obviously there is more to historic events than can be categorised in a convenient table which is edited by whoever wants to have a go.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 5:03:42 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

"There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, (and) science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

Hmmm. I would have to disagree since this appears to assume that people are reasonable creatures who eventually might see the error of their ways in being swayed by their emotional response to one another and the world around them.

It is clear that all religion, even in the displaced forms in which it is often today found, is the product of mankind's earliest attempts at reasoning out an understanding of himself and his world - including his emotional relationships with others and the environment.

Whilst science has impacted on religion and obliged it to either adapt to what is demonstrably true or persist in ridicule to the contrary, and whilst science can equally tell us that our emotions are actually the consequence of chemcial reactions, science has had little impact on helping us to deal with our emotions as we experience them and it is in this arena that religion will persist indefinitely or until science can engineer emotional bypasses that shall render us little more than machines, and overcoming emotional resistance to the application thereof render us each something no longer human.

Science will not lose, but it shall also never win in the sense of removing religion from the human condition. Indeed any attempt by science to do so, along the lines of the above, should inevitably lead to the destruction of science in a human emotional response so violent that its very existence, quite apart from its utility, should be called into question.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 5:15:15 AM

eyesopened

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I'm not lazy. It's just that my priorities do not include doing research for you.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 5:42:55 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I never have said any such thing as Himmler was not Catholic so kindly do not put words in my mouth. Try reading facts. Here's some for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

Did you happen to notice there were six different warnings from Wikipedia about the reliability of the posted article?

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 8:08:56 AM

kdsub

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He’s just bitter with his lot in life and I understand that…God bless him.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 11:26:30 AM

TheRaptorJesus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

He’s just bitter with his lot in life and I understand that…God bless him.

Butch

Yeah, I'd be totally bitter if I were one of the world's foremost physicists and had people paying just to hear me speak.

Yup, he hates his life, that's why he thinks religion is dumb... nothing to do with science.

You're silly.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 11:32:23 AM

scifi113

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I'm not lazy. It's just that my priorities do not include doing research for you.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 11:37:51 AM

Fellow

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quote:

Brainiacsub: You are wrong on this. Most scientists are overwhelmingly atheist or agnostic...latest NAS (National Academy of Science) poll shows 94%.

I doubt this is true. My claim was based on the recent study the Washington Post reported. ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/28/AR2010052801856.html ). It claims about half of the scientists (1700 top scientists from US elite research universities were interviewed, 275 in detail) are religious and about one third atheists. Only five of the 275 interviewees actively opposed religion.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 11:46:09 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Her priorities also don't including stating her case with clarity or verifying the information she gives as proof of her argument that the majority of conflict is caused by ego or politics. In the list I created I purposely looked for events where religion was a major component of the conflict. e.g. I didn't state the whole Bosnian war was caused by religion only that certain atrocities within it were caused by religious differences. Likewise I'd prefer it if rather than being given a vague list I'd actually get something where it was obvious religion had played no part in the atrocity.

You can't really separate political speech from religious speech because usually when a leader wants support for something they'll speak in terms of what is convenient for their people to hear. 'God bless America' etc. I wouldn't say that Religion is inherently malevolent just that it enables people to manipulate the herd and make them compliant in unreasonable acts.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 12:02:49 PM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I'm not lazy. It's just that my priorities do not include doing research for you.

But you also said this:

quote:

More suffering has been handed out for purely secular, political, and egotistical reasons than has ever been handed out by 'religion'. Even the Spanish Inqusition was a brilliant political move by the king of Spain.

Don't you think any research would be for your benefit, not his? I'd personally want to know the correctness of my ideas and beliefs before I stated them as fact.

You are erroneously assuming that whatever personal benefit you derive from your belief system is scalable to include larger populations and entire civilizations. History has proven you incorrect. Religion never has and never will be about 'live and let live.'

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/9/2010 12:11:11 PM >

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 12:21:56 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

FTA:
"There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, (and) science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

Which of course is an unreasonable point of view.

It is rational for human beings to believe in a god because of the benefits derived from so doing.

And....science will not defeat religion......religion is an essential component in human existence.....human experience should tell you this.

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 12:45:08 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
More suffering has been handed out for purely secular, political, and egotistical reasons than has ever been handed out by 'religion'. Even the Spanish Inqusition was a brilliant political move by the king of Spain.

The Christening of Europe
The Crusades
The Troubles in Northern Ireland
The Israeli Palestinian conflict
The French Wars of Religion/ The St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre
The Taiping Rebellion
The persecution of Christians in Africa
The Holocaust (Himmler considered himself a devout Roman Catholic)
The killing of Muslims during the Bosnian war.

The problem with your argument is that you'll say things like 'Oh Himmler he was not a real Roman Catholic he only thought he was' but something within his belief set seemed to lead to him persecuting the Jews? Religions have only started talking about tolerance now because it's in vogue. It's inherently easier to get a religious person to kill in the name of their faith because they can postpone the critical reasoning (as to why they are doing it) for their afterlife.

Nobody can ask me to kill in the name of science, i.e. kill that person over there because the teachings of Newton depend on it. I can reasonably see that no person is a threat to scientific truth.

No one can ask you to kill in the name of "science"?!

Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Gypsies and "others' in his scientific eugenics program.

Stalin killed 20-50 millions of his own citizens in his quest to impose the "scientific" vision of mankind.

And I'm not including the purely political wars of the 20th Century which easily resulted in the deaths of millions more (15 million in WWI, and 50 million in WWII for example).

If there are massive deaths to account for, religious wars are a pimple of the ass of science, and pure old politics.

Makes me wonder why you would spend so much effort to try to portray it the other way around?

Firm

PS. And I forgot Mao's attempt at a "scientific political revolution" where more than 20 million died.

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 6/9/2010 12:51:59 PM >

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RE: Hawking: Religion will be defeated by science - 6/9/2010 12:50:23 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I never have said any such thing as Himmler was not Catholic so kindly do not put words in my mouth. Try reading facts. Here's some for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

Did you happen to notice there were six different warnings from Wikipedia about the reliability of the posted article?

Plenty of other sources.

You always do this: try to discredit the source, rather than discuss the facts.

Firm

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