RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (Full Version)

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jbcurious -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 3:16:26 AM)

Oh pleeeeeze...don't encourage him to srart another thread!!!!



ModeratorSixteen -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 3:22:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Oh pleeeeeze...don't encourage him to srart another thread!!!!

That wasn't directed to an individual,but in response to the posts that moderators have had to deal with even though we have asked people to stick on topic.[:)]



LadyPact -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 4:00:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Intelligence is necessary too, because it is a basis for wisdom. You can be intelligent but not wise, but you can hardly be wise if you are not intelligent in the first place.

Wisdom is based on intelligence+experience+intuition+common sense. If you lack intelligence, you can hardly be very wise.


So, basically what you are saying here is that you want a Dominant that is vastly superior to you in order for you to submit to that level.  In the same turn, you are asking her to settle for less.  Please explain to Me why she should do that?  By your own definition, you lack the very wisdom that you say is a requirement for you to submit in all areas.  Exactly what do you temper that with?

There are a number of Dominants out there (such as Myself) that say the answer had better be obedience.  It may not be particularly popular, and I can absolutely promise you that I am too strict on the subject for some.  Still, I will tell you that I'm not here to argue with My submissive or to "prove" that I'm right in order for him to submit.  I'm even going to go so far as to say that he's not going to agree with every decision that I make and, in My opinion, submission does not mean he's going to like everything that he has to do.  That doesn't mean that I don't listen to input.  It means once I've listened to the input, if I've made a decision, I expect it to be followed.



BitaTruble -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 4:08:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot


Why would you give Total Authority in All Areas of your life to someone who is NOT Superior to you in All Areas of life?


Because I'm a slave with a realistic expectation that it is pretty much impossible for one human to be superior in ALL areas to another human. So,

quote:

For example, if you have better musical tastes than your Master, why would you allow him to choose for you what music you'll listen to?
If you have a better feeling for fashion than your Master, why would you allow him to choose your clothes and haircolor?
If you have better understanding about cars and types of cars why would you allow him to choose what car is best for you?
In general, if there is any area in which you are definitely better, more knowledgeable etc, than your Master, why would you allow him to make important decisions in this area for you, if you are sure that you can do it better yourself?

And finally, if he constantly decides in all the areas of your life, even in those where you would certainly make better decisions, doesn't it lead to frustration and disappointment, since your own opinion doesn't matter, unless he approves it, even in areas where you are better. He can approve your opinion in most cases, but by his very nature, of being less knowledgeable in this particular area, he isn't even competent to approve or disapprove your opinion. And sometimes he'll disapprove it because he genuinely thinks this is better, but he'll be wrong. And in some other situations he'll disapprove just because he can - he wants to show some authority.



You have a lot of *what if* questions.. what if none of those scenarios are even close to true? What if your Master is well aware of your strong points and utlizes them to his best advantage? What if your Master has more than two brain cells to rub together and values input before making final decisions? What if a slave gave their opinions on any given subject and left the final decision to their Master because.. that's what slaves do? If it's not in you to abdicate authority, then it's just not. It is in me. I value power, I value the ability of Himself to get the job done. I know he won't *always* make the right decision.. but he will most of the time. I wouldn't *always* make the right decision either and even though I will most of the time, what he has that I don't is the ability to bend my will to his own so those areas that are not his strong suit.. he calls on my strengths in those areas because he has the power to do so and since he has that power, I grant him the authority. Not the way it works for everyone but the way it works for me.

Look SN.. if kinky bedroom sex gets you hot and hard, that's okay. Go with it. If you are seeking out perfection, it's never going to happen. If you want part-time play, part-time authority or weekend power exchange.. any and all of that is okay. You don't have to justify it or rectify your thinking to appease the silent (or not so silent) masses. YOU get to determine the path you want to take, and honestly, if you want to call it slavery, wild monkey sex, power exchange, authority transfer.. whatever.. that only real meaning that has is to you and the person or people with whom you are involved. If what you call slavery is not what *I* would call slavery.. it doesn't matter. You don't need my blessing and I don't need yours.

Look, even if you find someone who is superior to you in a LOT of areas, there are going to be some areas in which you will excel and she won't. TPE is obviously not for you and that's okay. I think that's what you are not getting. It doesn't *have* to be total for everyone. You don't *have* to give up all your power if you choose not to do so. And from the flip side, you don't have to take on the responsibility of taking all the power either. You are free to either delegate or negotiate to your hearts desire before getting involved at all.

Repeat after me. "What I do and what I call it only matters to the people with whom I am involved." Nutshell, k?



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 5:18:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, basically what you are saying here is that you want a Dominant that is vastly superior to you in order for you to submit to that level.  In the same turn, you are asking her to settle for less.  Please explain to Me why she should do that?  By your own definition, you lack the very wisdom that you say is a requirement for you to submit in all areas.  Exactly what do you temper that with?

There are a number of Dominants out there (such as Myself) that say the answer had better be obedience.  It may not be particularly popular, and I can absolutely promise you that I am too strict on the subject for some.  Still, I will tell you that I'm not here to argue with My submissive or to "prove" that I'm right in order for him to submit.  I'm even going to go so far as to say that he's not going to agree with every decision that I make and, in My opinion, submission does not mean he's going to like everything that he has to do.  That doesn't mean that I don't listen to input.  It means once I've listened to the input, if I've made a decision, I expect it to be followed.



This is what I've been waiting to hear!

Pretty much the most basic point of M/s or D/s is that someone makes the decisions and someone else does what they are told.

So, while you are looking. While you are learning what it is you want: you theorize. It is SMART to look at the different hypothetical situations and think how you want things to be. It is desirable to know yourself, and what you want (as much as anyone can know what they want on mere theory).

However, once you make your choice. Once you make that leap of faith and choose to submit to your own persona of perfection. Then my guess is, you better be willing to do as you are told sans attitude and argument.




tazzygirl -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 5:37:38 AM)

And i still say SN seems to lose sight of the fact that a slave doesnt lose their intelligence, their owner simply decides when and where to make the best use of it.

i dont need an owner who is einstein, i need a man who is smart enough to know how to use my intelligence to compliment his own. [:D]



SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 5:50:52 AM)

quote:


There are a number of Dominants out there (such as Myself) that say the answer had better be obedience.  It may not be particularly popular, and I can absolutely promise you that I am too strict on the subject for some.  Still, I will tell you that I'm not here to argue with My submissive or to "prove" that I'm right in order for him to submit.  I'm even going to go so far as to say that he's not going to agree with every decision that I make and, in My opinion, submission does not mean he's going to like everything that he has to do.  That doesn't mean that I don't listen to input.  It means once I've listened to the input, if I've made a decision, I expect it to be followed.


I could become such kind of submissive but only after enough the Domme earned enough of my trust and I described it clearly in my OP:

quote:

However, after few years, if she proved enough times that she knows better, and that her opinions are better than mine, I would maybe enter the phase in which I would simply accept whatever she suggests without even questioning it. This would be the phase of "mindless" obedience and acceptance and total slavery - but this would be possible if and only if she proved enough times that she is indeed smarter and wiser than me and that her decisions and opinions are usually better than mine.



However, LadyPact - there are two types of obedience.

First is obedience in day-to-day matters, in following rituals and protocol, in BDSM activities, in play, in punishments, etc - whatever is related to everyday living, BDSM play and temporary activities. I could be obedient in that matters even in the beginning of the relationship and even if I feel that she is not superior to me in anything. That would be about power exchange for its own sake, submission and pleasing the Dominant for its own sake, for the thrill and pleasure of it, and for satisfying sadistic and masochistic urges.

Second type of obedience is about following the lead of the Dominant in serious big, life-changing decisions, it is also about accepting her philosophy, attitudes about things, tastes, opinions. It's about going in  the direction she chooses, pursuing hobbies she selects, this can also be about career, education, place of living, etc.
All serious and less serious stuff that is important for my identity and which has long term effects.

In most cases I wouldn't be willing to surrender control of my life in these areas. I would only be able to surrender total control of my life to a Domme in all of these serious areas IF I felt that she is indeed wiser, smarter and superior to me in most things. Only then would I feel that her real authority is legitimate. Only then I could be in TPE relationship.

Otherwise I could be in D/s relationship that is not TPE, and in which I would be only obedient in things such as:
BDSM play, housework, satisfying her whims, running errands, rituals, protocol, etc - everything that constitutes typical aspects of power exchange

So yes, I would endure harsh scenes, I would kneel in front of her, I would work for her, I would be sexually controlled, etc.

but I wouldn't abandon my political, philosophical and religious views,
I wouldn't abandon my hobbies, I wouldn't abandon my long term goals, aspirations, dreams, career, education, etc.


In order to be obedient in this second area (long term goals, life philosophy, attitudes, etc) I would have to be sure that she is indeed superior to me.

I can obey someone who is less wise than me. I can please them. I can work for them. I can enjoy power exchange with them as a submissive.
But I can't allow them to lead me through my life and to make big life changing decisions for me.
This is possible (in my case) only if they are indeed superior in their wisdom, intellect, knowledge and even ethics.



GreedyTop -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:19:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Hmmm... I think I dated those guys, Level. Hollywood in the '80s, yanno [:D]


OMG!! That was you backstage with me and the band at Gazzari's!! 



crazyml -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:24:18 AM)

Oh for Pete's sake SNot.. are you having trouble reading?

It doesn't matter how many times you ask the same question, how many times you go off your own topic (without having your posts deleted) the answer is ALWAYS going to be the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot


So yes, I would endure harsh scenes, I would kneel in front of her, I would work for her, I would be sexually controlled, etc.

but I wouldn't abandon my political, philosophical and religious views,
I wouldn't abandon my hobbies, I wouldn't abandon my long term goals, aspirations, dreams, career, education, etc.



SO DON'T!!!!!!

Jesus wept, it's as simple as that!

This has been said to you many many times on this thread. I simply don't understand a) why you can't get it b) why this nonsense didn't stay in the random stupidity category or c) why the people who quite understandably lose their tempers get their posts deleted.


quote:



In order to be obedient in this second area (long term goals, life philosophy, attitudes, etc) I would have to be sure that she is indeed superior to me.



FINE!

But first... what do you have to offer this person... because, I know more than a handful of dommes who are way superior to you in intellect, wisdom, maturity and experience. But I'd be astonished if any of them would be interested in you... you're inexperienced, addicted to mental masturbation, and constantly asking the same quesiton. They'd rather punch you than domme you.

quote:



I can obey someone who is less wise than me. I can please them. I can work for them. I can enjoy power exchange with them as a submissive.
But I can't allow them to lead me through my life and to make big life changing decisions for me.
This is possible (in my case) only if they are indeed superior in their wisdom, intellect, knowledge and even ethics.



Good good... now can we just assume that your questions have already been answered like a MILLION times on this godforsaken thread??




porcelaine -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:34:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Why would you give Total Authority in All Areas of your life to someone who is NOT Superior to you in All Areas of life?


By superior I'm assuming you're referencing knowledge and skill in a given subject. To have someone that excels significantly above you would require an individual with identical interests and experiences. I seek a happy medium and look for balance. My approach is both personal and managerial inspired. Good leaders surround themselves with exceptional people. They take into account their strengths and areas of weaknesses and having persons on hand that offset shortcomings and expand areas of proficiency. Doing so provides a continual opportunity for growth and enhancement.

quote:

For example, if you have better musical tastes than your Master, why would you allow him to choose for you what music you'll listen to?


My musical tastes are very diverse. It is common for my partner and I share an interest in similar styles. However, where we differ is the depth of exploration and familiarity gained in each. Some people scratch the surface and others dive in. If we're dealing with a subject where he's done the latter and I have not, it would be wiser to defer to his expertise because it clearly exceeds my own. For instance, I love classical music and opera. There are noted styles that provide their own unique flavor. My preferences for classical music are heavily slanted towards Chamber and Baroque styles. If my partner is an avid modern enthusiast, I'll defer to him when we're discussing that time frame. Although I have quite a few artists I enjoy from today's era, his in depth knowledge makes him the expert of sorts where that's concerned.

quote:

If you have a better feeling for fashion than your Master, why would you allow him to choose your clothes and haircolor?


The men I'm attracted to are generally more metrosexual in flavor. In terms of fashion they're very astute and capable of providing suggestions that go beyond the norm. In this respect we're on an even plane. The recommendations offered are well articulated and illustrate why specific items are flattering to my physique or less enhancing. They're generally more conservative in dress and my penchant for certain looks won't fly. That means I'm not getting red hair but he might allow a wig. From a personal standpoint I really enjoy being dressed by my partner. It's difficult to put into words without sounding very girlie.

quote:

If you have better understanding about cars and types of cars why would you allow him to choose what car is best for you?


Oddly enough I've spent a lot of time reading and watching Car and Driver for a girl that can't operate a vehicle. Soliciting his feedback is merely a demonstration of obedience and the dynamic we function within. If selecting my car makes him happy I have little reason to protest. Especially if he's purchasing it on my behalf. That would seem a little crass.

quote:

In general, if there is any area in which you are definitely better, more knowledgeable etc, than your Master, why would you allow him to make important decisions in this area for you, if you are sure that you can do it better yourself?


This is where self awareness comes into play. Being in the midst of someone that can never admit their knowledge on a given subject is beneath that of the partner creates situations where the submissive's contributions may be sharply limited. I believe most people are happiest when they're in relationship where contributions are collectively acknowledged and desired. Better is always subjective and there will be areas where I am clearly more adept. I trust his competency in decision making for small and more important matters. If my input is necessary he'll solicit it. If not, he won't.

quote:

And finally, if he constantly decides in all the areas of your life, even in those where you would certainly make better decisions, doesn't it lead to frustration and disappointment, since your own opinion doesn't matter, unless he approves it, even in areas where you are better.


I'll approach your question from two positions. Yes, there are quite a few slaves that a very unhappy in their station. I can't go into detail why that's the case. I don't believe it's as simple as making bad choices or failing to yield enough. However, it would be unfair to the question posed not to acknowledge the realities of giving someone the control you speak of. For some, it is limiting and they wilt rather than expand.

On a personal level, self denial isn't difficult for me. Frustration and disappointment come in other areas and in time we understanding that there are moments when what we want isn't possible. However, to assert that my opinion is meaningless would reference an exchange that I'd never knowingly get involved with. Valuing me as a individual includes my thoughts and everything else that follows. If he found it unimportant our conversations would be decidedly one-sided and pretty lackluster.

quote:

He can approve your opinion in most cases, but by his very nature, of being less knowledgeable in this particular area, he isn't even competent to approve or disapprove your opinion. And sometimes he'll disapprove it because he genuinely thinks this is better, but he'll be wrong. And in some other situations he'll disapprove just because he can - he wants to show some authority.


With all due respect that's an impairment in ego not common sense. In my opinion, an individual with the imbalances mentioned is self-serving and focused on himself rather than the betterment of the slave or exchange. Dominance isn't a vehicle to prove ones mettle, validate his manhood, restore his self-esteem, assume positions of authority because he cannot do so elsewhere, or a tyrannical dictatorship. If his motivation for dominance is fueled by what's been said it's probable his leadership will be short lived.

~porcelaine



SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:38:35 AM)

quote:


But first... what do you have to offer this person... because, I know more than a handful of dommes who are way superior to you in intellect, wisdom, maturity and experience. But I'd be astonished if any of them would be interested in you... you're inexperienced, addicted to mental masturbation, and constantly asking the same quesiton. They'd rather punch you than domme you.


What would I offer? As I said - to such person I would offer everything - my work, service, entertaining them, engaging in all sort of activities with them, my absolute obedience - and even my whole self - to mold it and shape it as they please. But they would really have to PROVE their superiority before my surrender.

In a realistic scenario, relationship would slowly develop - I would first surrender in some less important areas, and gradually I would surrender more and more, if she proved her superiority and earned my trust. However if she didn't prove her superiority, I would surrender just to one certain degree and just in some areas, while in other areas I would demand to stay independent. So, if she proves that she is superior, this would be M/s relationship, if not, only D/s with clearly established limits.



crazyml -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:42:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:


But first... what do you have to offer this person... because, I know more than a handful of dommes who are way superior to you in intellect, wisdom, maturity and experience. But I'd be astonished if any of them would be interested in you... you're inexperienced, addicted to mental masturbation, and constantly asking the same quesiton. They'd rather punch you than domme you.


What would I offer? As I said - to such person I would offer everything - my work, service, entertaining them, engaging in all sort of activities with them, my absolute obedience - and even my whole self - to mold it and shape it as they please. But they would really have to PROVE their superiority before my surrender.

In realistic scenario, relationship would slowly develop - I would first surrender in some less important areas, and gradually I would surrender more and more, if they proved their superiority and earned my trust. However if they don't prove their superiority, I would surrender just to one degree and just in some areas, while in other areas I would demand to stay independent. So, if she proves that she is superior, this would be M/s relationship, if not, only D/s with clearly established limits.


Brilliant! Now.. you're clear about what you can offer, and what you'd expect in terms of freedom.

Now - get going and find this person!!!

Expect to fuck it up a couple of times - we all do - but you are absolutely not going to find this person through thinkurbation alone... you're going to have to get chatting to some people (and pray they don't check out your posts!).





ownedbyPF -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:44:00 AM)

OP, I understand where you are coming from. For me, it was important to be with someone who was smarter and wiser in both common sense, education, and street smarts. If they were going to direct my life then I needed to know they would be capable of doing a better job of it than I am. If everytime I thought something should be done in a way that differed from what they thought, and it turned out I was right, well, sheesh what was the point? I have said in the past... I can accomplish mediocre all by myself.. thanks.

I also understand your saying that they need to prove it to you. I needed to see it as well. However, what lally pointed out is that it's established before you get to the point of being enslaved. It's established along the way. It's by taking note of the number of times they were right and you were wrong. At some point you must move from saying, or thinking, "prove it" to pushing the "I believe" button. If years down the road they are still having to prove how smart they are to you, well, I would think one would grow tired of your lack of faith in them. It's part of the trust building and relationship building.

As others have said, no one will be smarter in every area. A good Master uses your smarts for their benefit. With my Owner, there are, honestly, very few places where I have better insight. Usually it pertains to kids, or people. He recognizes that and listens. Sometimes He uses that in how he handles something, sometimes he dismisses it. That's the hard part about being a slave, it means accepting whatever decision the Master makes, regardless of how you feel about it. I can do this with my Master, because I recognize that not only does he almost always make the right call, but more importantly, when He doesn't He recognizes it. He can say... I was wrong. He can say... wow, I fucked that one up. And then he learns from that and applies it next time around.

When it comes to things like music etc... I am so fullfilled and grateful with the life I have that what show is watched, which movie is seen, which song is played, just doesn't matter to me. It's too small in comparison to everything around me to matter. Do I have favorite songs? Sure. Do I care if I'm listening to them? No. Will you, could you, ever feel that way? I have no idea, and the truth is, you have no idea. You have to walk the road to figure out where it goes.
~s



GreedyTop -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:45:18 AM)

quote:

What would I offer? As I said - to such person I would offer everything - my work, service, entertaining them, engaging in all sort of activities with them, my absolute obedience - and even my whole self - to mold it and shape it as they please. But they would really have to PROVE their superiority before my surrender


so.. what is it about all that that makes you WANTABLE? countless others have offered the same things... why are YOU 'special'?



porcelaine -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:45:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And i still say SN seems to lose sight of the fact that a slave doesnt lose their intelligence, their owner simply decides when and where to make the best use of it.


In all honesty he isn't completely off base with that assertion. His perspective will be different because he's on the outside looking in so to speak. I think familiarity allows us to ignore things because we've seen it all before. But in all truth there are quite a few that exhibit the behaviors mentioned. They digest a great deal to be on the kneel and they aren't very happy living that way. We dismiss those types as supposed fluff bunnies but there are more than a few that fall outside of that category. While we advocate making informed choices, in the end the idea of something and its reality can be far less appealing.

~porcelaine



RCdc -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 6:52:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
What would I offer? As I said - to such person I would offer everything - my work, service, entertaining them, engaging in all sort of activities with them, my absolute obedience - and even my whole self - to mold it and shape it as they please. But they would really have to PROVE their superiority before my surrender.

In a realistic scenario, relationship would slowly develop - I would first surrender in some less important areas, and gradually I would surrender more and more, if she proved her superiority and earned my trust. However if she didn't prove her superiority, I would surrender just to one certain degree and just in some areas, while in other areas I would demand to stay independent. So, if she proves that she is superior, this would be M/s relationship, if not, only D/s with clearly established limits.


And this post pretty much clarified my thoughts on what you were/are getting at.

I've followed this post and it strikes me that you aren't talking about intelligence or wisdom at all - you simply attracted to the idea of someone who has the ability to hold dominion over you.  You talk about superiority - it's a classical male submissive fantasy model IMO.

the.dark.



crazyml -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 7:02:00 AM)

Quality!



kyraofMists -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 7:04:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Why would you give Total Authority in All Areas of your life to someone who is NOT Superior to you in All Areas of life?


Because it is internally fulfilling and rewarding
Because it is how I naturally respond to him
Because it gets me wet
Because I get warm fuzzies and just feel good all over when he gives me an order
Because I trust him not to harm me

Because it is who I am with him....

Really, nothing more needs to be said than that. I also do not consider music, clothing type, hair color, type of vehicle to be "important decisions". To me these are all rather shallow in the whole scheme of our life.

Knight's Kyra





SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 7:09:00 AM)

quote:


so.. what is it about all that that makes you WANTABLE? countless others have offered the same things... why are YOU 'special'?


I'm not "special" in any "special" way, I'm just special and unique as everyone else is special and unique.
I could offer my intelligence, education, personality, skills, worldview, ideas, creativity, talents, etc.



kyraofMists -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/11/2010 7:14:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
there are two types of obedience.


Totally disagree with that. You either obey or you don't. What you described is differences in instructions/orders and not differences in obedience. In our house, obedience is black and white. You either do it or you don't.

Knight's Kyra



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