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RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:02:46 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

your THINKING is flawed since you have adnitted to having no REAL TIME experience,.

And I would add to this - Type 1 is all about satisfying your kink, and getting your rocks off.

Type 2 is about being part of a D/s or M/s relationship.

If you're only after bedroom kink, then go with Type 1.

If you want any kind of relationship involving D/s OUTSIDE of the bedroom, then you'd better get used to your Dom/me getting deeply involved in your personal affairs!

Any relationship, vanilla or kinky (how I hate those terms!!), means that you become involved in each others business and have an effect on each others decisions and choices. If that's of real concern, then maybe you're not ready for a relationship full stop.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to GreedyTop)

Post #: 141

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:03:48 AM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline

*boing*

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CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 142

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:09:30 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

If you want any kind of relationship involving D/s OUTSIDE of the bedroom, then you'd better get used to your Dom/me getting deeply involved in your personal affairs!

Any relationship, vanilla or kinky (how I hate those terms!!), means that you become involved in each others business and have an effect on each others decisions and choices. If that's of real concern, then maybe you're not ready for a relationship full stop.

This was my thought when reading his posts. ANY kind of relationship - D/s, M/s or otherwise - has each other involved in each others personal affairs. In any kind of relationship you are influenced by the views and life of your partner. D/s and M/s just enhances that influence and can turn "influence" into "instruction." And, well, assuming you trust your dominant's/master's character, knowledge, and desire to look out for you, submitting to his/her will doesn't turn into this big traumatic, life-changing ordeal SN is afraid of.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 143

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:09:50 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

You are in class, your Professor sees you reading anything other than material he/she considers suitable for the class you are attending. You are ordered to put the inappropriate reading material away. You obey, or you disobey.

This is totally different context. Obeying professors order in this situation is just part of MY OWN BIGGER DECISION to finish my college. I decided to finish the college, with full knowledge of what this requires, including reading stuff that I find boring.
However, even in such situations, I hate to do it. I really hate to read some things that I find personally boring or which are not of my interest. I HATE TO DO IT, even in college or school. But even worse than forcing me to read something would be forcing me NOT to read something that I love and that makes me happy, fulfilled and engaged. No one so far succeeded in doing it.

quote:

You are a Lawyer, who behaves unethically and are Disbarred for it. The Bar Association tells you that you can no longer be a lawyer. Suffice it to say, you are no longer allowed to practice law, and you must obey the ruling or disobey it.

Again, my decision to obey, would be plan of my bigger plan that I should obey law in order to avoid penalties or imprisonment. BTW, I wouldn't behave unethically in the first place.

This is something I don't have power to change. We are all subjects to the state and government.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 144

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:19:30 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

And I would add to this - Type 1 is all about satisfying your kink, and getting your rocks off.

Are you crazy? How can working for her, giving her money to do as she please, washing her car, cooking, cleaning, doing whatever she wants be about satisfying my kink?
Isn't it ALL ABOUT HER. I won't decide what of these things I will do. She will decide. All of these things aren't my kinks at all. It doesn't make me hard.
All of these things I would do, when she wants and in a way she wants.

quote:

Type 2 is about being part of a D/s or M/s relationship.

If you're only after bedroom kink, then go with Type 1.

What the hell washing car and giving my salary has to do with bedroom???????????

quote:

If you want any kind of relationship involving D/s OUTSIDE of the bedroom, then you'd better get used to your Dom/me getting deeply involved in your personal affairs!

Any relationship, vanilla or kinky (how I hate those terms!!), means that you become involved in each others business and have an effect on each others decisions and choices. If that's of real concern, then maybe you're not ready for a relationship full stop.

Influence and involvement is one thing - direct instruction and absolute control is another.
She can influence my literary tastes. She can suggest what will I do in my career or what my hobbies will be, but she can't stop me from reading Dostoevsky, and she can't force me to abandon my career!

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/11/2010 9:21:20 AM >

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 145

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:28:07 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

SN - I think these various threads have been very good for you. You have established that you are not a slave nor are you willing to entertain the thought. You are going to retain power in certain areas and do what the fuck you want when the fuck you want. Excellent! You are coming to terms with your limits and are defending them with vigor. Outstanding.

You offer pieces of yourself when it suits you and you have high ethics so, no doubt, will disclose that to any potential dominant. You have submissive fantasies which appear to be mostly related to getting off on kink, but not the strong urge to really pursue them, so on the flip side, I'm sure you will disclose those to any potential submissive as well so she is well geared on whether or not you have what it really takes to be her dominant which is so much more than wisdom and intelligence although those are great qualities to have and actually common among both those who live in alternate worlds and those who don't.

I am a firm believer in soul searching and peeling back the layers of oneself to find what truly lies beneath and I think you are well ahead of where you were in that regard.

Now, whether any of that will lead you into successful M/s realtionships or, perhaps, a successful D/s relationship remains to be seen. I wish you loads of luck with it and luck should not be underestimated when it comes to finding a compatible partner. It took me about 14 years to find a compatible partner and my pond was way bigger than yours, so, maybe invest in a rabbit's foot or something.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 146

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:28:33 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
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I'm rewording your post slightly, to put into context what you repeatedly fail to comprehend about the 'why' someone would be a slave and submit to things that they might not want for themselves.

Obeying Master's order in this situation is just part of MY OWN BIGGER DECISION to be a slave. I decided to be a slave, with full knowledge of what this requires, including reading (doing) stuff that I find boring.
However, even in such situations, I hate to do it. I really hate to read (do) some things that I find personally boring or which are not of my interest. .... But even worse than forcing me to do something would be forcing me NOT to be something that I love and that makes me happy, fulfilled and engaged. ...

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 6/11/2010 9:39:12 AM >

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 147

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:30:05 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

But even worse than forcing me to read something would be forcing me NOT to read something that I love and that makes me happy, fulfilled and engaged. No one so far succeeded in doing it.

At least you have succeed in defining yourself. You are neither submissive or dominant; you are egocentric and selfish seeking only those circumstances and conditions which, as you disclosed, "makes me happy". Your submission and/or dominant desires are limited to what "makes you happy".

Having that established mindset your best prescribed path would be to continue living vicariously through others while one-handed web surfing, enjoying the only relationship not excluded by the "makes you happy" otherwise know as the 'what's in it for me' paradigm, the one with yourself.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 148

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:31:21 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Are you crazy? How can working for her, giving her money to do as she please, washing her car, cooking, cleaning, doing whatever she wants be about satisfying my kink?
Isn't it ALL ABOUT HER. I won't decide what of these things I will do.

Uh huh.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 149

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:42:54 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Are you crazy? How can working for her, giving her money to do as she please, washing her car, cooking, cleaning, doing whatever she wants be about satisfying my kink?
Isn't it ALL ABOUT HER. I won't decide what of these things I will do.

Uh huh.

I give up...it's like trying to nail jello to the wall...

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 150

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:47:20 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

Obeying Master's order in this situation is just part of MY OWN BIGGER DECISION to be a slave. I decided to be a slave, with full knowledge of what this requires, including reading (doing) stuff that I find boring.
However, even in such situations, I hate to do it. I really hate to read (do) some things that I find personally boring or which are not of my interest. .... But even worse than forcing me to read something would be forcing me NOT to be something that I love and that makes me happy, fulfilled and engaged. ...

Yes, but I would never decide to be the slave just for the sake of being the slave. To be a slave I have to have some sort of reason why would I do it.
The same is true for finishing college. I want to finish college in order to find a job and pursue career and earn money and contribute to my household etc.

What would be the direct benefit of being slave for its own sake? What I get from it? I can get hot and fuzzy feelings and some kinks satisfied, but I can do this in D/s as well. I can find pleasure in pleasing my partner, but I could do it in D/s and in vanilla as well.

What would be the advantage of being a slave in TPE for me, when it is compared against D/s ? I don't see much advantage, but I see a lot of potential trouble.

The advantages of being slave in TPE, would be present only if the Mistress is indeed wiser, smarter and more knowledgeable. If she is better and more capable leader, only then there would intrinsic advantages of TPE over D/s for me.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 151

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:51:06 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
there are two types of obedience.

Totally disagree with that. You either obey or you don't. What you described is differences in instructions/orders and not differences in obedience. In our house, obedience is black and white. You either do it or you don't.

Knight's Kyra

No matter what type of relationshiop it is. If you are faced with an authority figure that requires obedience, you have basically three choices.

Obey, disobey or ignore (which is a passive disobedience, but still disobedience.)

And perhaps there are different types of individualistic approaches to obedience: to obey on instinct without question; to obey on faith, trusting that there is a reason behind the request and to obey after careful reflection with the benefit of obedience outweighing the consequence of disobedience.

However, there is still only do, or do not. One is obedience, the other disobedience. That's how I see it.

I forgot to add obey creatively. For instance, if you are told you can't read your favorite books any more, you go out and get them on audio tapes instead.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 152

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 10:22:07 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
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Ok, SocratesNot. You have established that you are not a slave. That's cool. Far as I am aware, no one is trying to force you into being one. I doubt anyone has even labored under the misconception that you in any way embody the concept of slave.

You chose an impossible scenario to disprove the possiblity, which seems rather contrived. Is your intention to disprove the validity of TPE in general? Or only as it relates to yourself?

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 153

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 10:49:43 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

No, I don't have similar opinions.

You may say this, but KoM from my POV comes across as a Dom Snot is describing. One of the reasons you find slavery rewarding is that he's really sharp and on the ball, and he's not a banal, self-serving Dom. Most times when he posts, he demonstrates competence and wisdom.

I agree with your description on who he is and I would not have chosen to be in a relationship with someone who was self-serving or tyrannical. Where I disagree with SN's opinions is that he is not more intelligent, more educated, or superior in most ways to me. I do not view him as superior to me in intellect. If I remember correctly, his IQ is the lowest out of the three of us. I have more formal education than either he or Alandra. I am more travelled, more wordly and me coming into their life has expanded their perceptions and views of our life.

In our relationship, I am the researcher. I gather all the information and present it to him. He is the decision maker. He excells at making decisions. Alandra is the implementor. She gets things done. He uses our skills to the best advantage and knows when to make use of each of us when we excel in an area that he does not. However, he does and can exercise his authority in an area where he is less skilled than I am. Alandra and I are very willing and able to change directions on a dime because he has decided that we will do it his way.

He has made bad decisions that ended in a consequence that he did not want. Sometimes he will even say, "I should have listened to you girls", but it doesn't change the fact that when he makes a decision that Alandra and I disagree with that we will still do it the way he wants. What we don't do is say "Prove to me that you are superior in this area and then I will do it your way".... that is what I came away with from the OP.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 154

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 11:41:42 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

I agree with your description on who he is and I would not have chosen to be in a relationship with someone who was self-serving or tyrannical. Where I disagree with SN's opinions is that he is not more intelligent, more educated, or superior in most ways to me. I do not view him as superior to me in intellect. If I remember correctly, his IQ is the lowest out of the three of us. I have more formal education than either he or Alandra. I am more travelled, more wordly and me coming into their life has expanded their perceptions and views of our life.

In our relationship, I am the researcher. I gather all the information and present it to him. He is the decision maker. He excells at making decisions. Alandra is the implementor. She gets things done. He uses our skills to the best advantage and knows when to make use of each of us when we excel in an area that he does not. However, he does and can exercise his authority in an area where he is less skilled than I am. Alandra and I are very willing and able to change directions on a dime because he has decided that we will do it his way.

He has made bad decisions that ended in a consequence that he did not want. Sometimes he will even say, "I should have listened to you girls", but it doesn't change the fact that when he makes a decision that Alandra and I disagree with that we will still do it the way he wants. What we don't do is say "Prove to me that you are superior in this area and then I will do it your way".... that is what I came away with from the OP.

Knight's Kyra

This was very refreshing and gave me some insight. I will probably need to reexamine my opinion about M/s.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 155

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 1:26:01 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Take the 'T' out of TPE and go through the day counting the times you've submitted to an inferior intellect in a power exchange. Everyone does so every day routinely. For example, I just did it responding to you.

Merc's a switch... Merc's a Switch... Merc's a Switch!!!! and like many of us... a heavy Masocist in making a response to Snot!!!

Ok....THAT made reading all this circular drivel totally worth it!

SN.....if TPE isn't for you, don't do it. It really is that simple. If M/s is not for you, don't do it. If D/s is not for you, don't do it. And for god's sake don't even think about putting your foot in the Dominant waters until you get control of your own life.

After three weeks of saying the same things over and over you still don't have a clue what an M/s or TPE relationship is because you do not listen. You look for boogeymen behind every corner and become paralyzed by the fear of things that will never happen. From these fears you develop random unworkable completely absurd theories of how to avoid being hurt such as the one above. It really isn't possible for someone to be "superior" in every regard. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Choosing someone that recognizes that and uses input in the areas that they aren't as strong is the key. IQ means nothing without emotional maturity, life experience, balance and many other factors. How much education a person has is not paticularly relevant to making relationship decisions on most days.

I'm going to suggest instead of weighing what type of d/s or m/s relationship you want, you should be taking a look at your life and your inability to grasp reality and your fears and finding a way to fix that for you. ANY relationship will require you to listen and communicate. You don't do that. I have no doubt that you have intelligence and compassion, but you seem to be lacking in any ability to understand the emotional concepts and fluidity of relationships. Figure THAT out so you can move forward and make these type of decisions if you actually have any desire to do that.

By the way, the evidence is all around you that it can work. Merc and Beth; Kom and Alandra and Kyra (but they need yarn obviously); Jeff and Carol; LP and clip; Bita and her Master (whose name I do not know sorry) and others I'm sure I've forgotten, I'm sorry. I envy the amount of love that these people demonstrate openly on the forums and they make healthy, well-informed, competent and caring decisions and lives every day. You just continue to ignore that evidence because of your own fears and issues.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/11/2010 2:23:06 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 156

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 1:52:29 PM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

I have a question for you ... do you intend to stay within a theoretical model or do you actually want to pursue an offline, nose-to-nose relationship with someone? Honestly, I can't tell. You seem to thrive on the discussion of the subject but perhaps are too timid or too fearful to take it out of theory and put things into practice? I'm just being nosy.. no pressure to answer.

The answer is - maybe. If there are right circumstances and if my urges for such kind of relationship grow stronger.
Right now I don't have very strong urges, but I am somewhat attracted to this dynamic even if it seems sometimes illogical to me.

Here is your problem in a nutshell:

1. You don't have strong urges to be in a relationship like this; if you take away the emotional pull of these things, you are left with nothing but cold, intellectual postulations

2. While I would be with someone who was inexperienced and curious, I would not want to be with someone who was so dispassionate about learning.

You can only venture successfully or even unsuccessfully into things you are passionate about; over thinking just demonstrates fear of living and the worry about getting hurt.

Life is about experience and no amount of reading about a thing will make you know firsthand what it is like.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 157

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/12/2010 10:58:16 AM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

I agree, sexyred. Also, these kinds of things aren't set in stone, in my experience. Something that seems impossible in one relationship might be easy as pie in the next, or might still be difficult, but in a positive, even triumphant way. I wasn't actively looking for an M/s or D/s relationship last time, and was a little nervous about entering a M/s dynamic at all. So, I discussed with my (now former) Master in detail what his expectations were of a submissive compared to a slave, some of his philosophy, and the practical day-to-day differences, before I made a commitment to him. I'd be dreadfully unhappy in some of the M/s dynamics I've seen, others would be very realistic and workable, and others might have a couple of sticking points that I would have to discuss in detail with the specific person. If they were able to address my concerns, I'd be the one to bend, if not, they might be open to taking me on as a submissive, or it might be a dealbreaker. Likewise, not all submissives or slaves would be compatible with me for a D/s relationship on the other side of the coin. Even though I would be the one in charge, I still would take their needs and desires into consideration. I'm in the Bay Area, and there are literally thousands of people here who are into BDSM and/or D/s. So, I can afford to be picky about the things that matter to me.

Several people have said that they only object to SN saying that M/s and D/s dynamics should be/involve whatever for everyone, rather than himself. I've found that even if I expressed my objections only for myself, some people still were offended. For example, I said in passing on one thread that if someone wanted a "one strike and you're out" relationship (perhaps better expressed as "disobey once and I'll dump you," as there are different potential strikes), it would be a dealbreaker in a budding relationship. A year ago, I didn't run into that phrase or attitude in any of the people I actually talked with, but it came up a lot on the forums, and really worried me. Someone created a thread in response to that, and I feel at this point that it would probably indicate that we weren't compatible, but I'd be willing to get more details about what the person meant by it, and how they would or have applied it. Now, I'm not a brat, and I wasn't willfully disobedient or rebellious even once in the 3 years I spent as a submissive or the 1 year I spent as a slave, so it most likely wouldn't come up at all. However, it very much goes to the roots of how people structure and think about their relationships. Once I'm ready to look again, I will ask about their take on it fairly early on.

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 158

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/12/2010 11:28:19 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I am left to wonder if SNot is suffering from repressed paranoia and whilst basically fearful, is al;so suffering from the delusion that he is intellectually superior to the rest of us. This would explain his almost categorical refusal to understand what people are telling him. Not sure how to get through to him at this time and no sure if the continual headaches are worth it. There has to be a way to help him understand without doing open surgery on his brain with a jack hammer and a stick of dynamite

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 159

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/12/2010 9:05:39 PM

Silence8

Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I have a question for you ... do you intend to stay within a theoretical model or do you actually want to pursue an offline, nose-to-nose relationship with someone? Honestly, I can't tell. You seem to thrive on the discussion of the subject but perhaps are too timid or too fearful to take it out of theory and put things into practice? I'm just being nosy.. no pressure to answer.

You know Soc lives in Bosnia, don't you?

Like you could find action in Bosnia.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 160

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