M/s and IQ and wisdom (Full Version)

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SocratesNot -> M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 9:31:33 PM)

When it comes to me personally, I could in theory be a slave only to someone who is clearly smarter and wiser than I am. This includes higher IQ, more education (not necessarily more formal education, just being more knowledgeable than me on most subjects) , more life experience and greater wisdom than my own.

This is pure and simple logic. If I am wiser and smarter, how can she know better than me what is best for us and for our relationship? No way! So, she must be both wiser and smarter than me, only then I could accept her authority as legitimate.

When it comes to my opinions - yes, if I was a slave, I would be glad to accept the opinions of my mistress and to abandon my own opinions, but when? If and only if she proved to me that her opinion is better by facts, hard logic and argumentation.

For the sake of the argument I will banalize it extremely. Let's say that my opinion is that 2+2=5, as soon as she shows me that 2+2=4 and not 5, I will immediately abandon my previous wrong opinion and accept her correct one.
But, if I think that 2+2=4 and she wants me to believe that 2+2=5, then I will never be able to accept her opinion, simply because she can't prove this to me, because this is simply untrue.

The same goes for attitudes and opinions about all kinds of things. And also the same is true when it comes to preferences.

Let's say that I love pop music. I enjoy it tremendously and I am a fanboy of various pop stars. However, my mistress wants me to stop listening to such type of music because she thinks this music is kitsch and superficial.
She wants me instead to listen to classical music. I would be reluctant at first, but gradually I would start to appreciate the classical music and all the artistic and expressive depth that it conveys and finally I'd enjoy it even more than I enjoyed pop. So, she would easily be able to change my taste and preference in this case. I would abandon my taste and preference and adopt hers.

Surprisingly, it could even work in the opposite direction. Let's say that I enjoy classical music and she wants me to listen to pop. She may argue that I take everything too seriously and that I should learn to just relax and enjoy while listening to simple and catchy tunes. She may further argue that I am a snob and that I avoid pop music just because I am insecure and fear being judged as superficial. This argument isn't far from truth, and she would certainly be right to a certain extent. So she could "force" me let go of my inhibitions and go to a concert of some pop star and to dance and sing in the mass of people, and I would most certainly enjoy myself and be thankful to her.

So she could force me to abandon pop altogether and to listen just to classical.
She could also force me to embrace many types of pop music and to attend concerts (as long as she allows me to listen to classical as well when I feel like it).

But if she tried to force me to stop listening to classical music completely, this wouldn't work. This is because I think that classical music has so much intrinsic value, that it would be extremely wrong not to listen to it at all.
There is no argumentation in this world that would convince me in the opposite.

However, the mistress that is smarter than me would never even try to do it, because everyone who has some brains knows that classical music is valuable and wouldn't try to ban it.

To sum up, I would allow a mistress to mold me, to change me, even to instill completely new personality in me, but only if I was 100% sure that she is smarter, wiser, more intelligent and more knowledgeable than me, AND if I felt that she is highly ethical and adheres strictly to her moral values which would have to be compatible with my own moral values.

In the process of changing me and molding me she would have to convince me and to prove that she is right and that I am wrong. If she is indeed smarter and wiser than me, this would certainly be a piece of cake for her. She would maybe even be able to change my moral and ethical values, my philosophy and my worldview, but again only if she is convincing enough and if she presents damn great argumentation for her beliefs.

In first years of relationship I would never accept to change any of my preferences, beliefs, opinions etc, without substantial proofs and argumentation that she would offer and that would convince me that she is indeed right.

However, after few years, if she proved enough times that she knows better, and that her opinions are better than mine, I would maybe enter the phase in which I would simply accept whatever she suggests without even questioning it. This would be the phase of "mindless" obedience and acceptance and total slavery - but this would be possible if and only if she proved enough times that she is indeed smarter and wiser than me and that her decisions and opinions are usually better than mine.

Do any of you have similar thoughts and attitudes?

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Edited to add:

All of the things previously described apply ONLY to TPE or M/s type of relationship.

I could easily enter D/s relationship with the domme that is of the same intelligence and wisdom as I am, or even lower, but in this case
I would demand total intellectual, political, religious, social and economic independence from her.
I would still serve her, my sexuality would be controlled by her, I would work for her, cater to her whims, engage in BDSM play with her as a submissive,
but she wouldn't be able to significantly influence my attitudes, opinions, beliefs, etc.




LadyAngelika -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 9:36:22 PM)

quote:

This is pure and simple logic. If I am wiser and smarter, how can she know better than me what is best for us and for our relationship? No way! So, she must be both wiser and smarter than, only then I could accept her authority as legitimate.


I don't feel that I need to be wiser and/or smarter than a man to be his Domme. I like very intelligent men, always have, always will. Their intelligence is not threatening to me. It is a gorgeous honour for me to have an intelligent man who wishes to hand over his submission to me.

In my experience, I think in order for a partnership to work out, it is best when intelligence levels are similar. We don't get caught up on who's smarter. In addition, intelligences are multiple and relative. Is he smarter than me if he knows more about literature? Maybe I know more about computers!

If you get hung up on such banalities, you'll miss the big picture.

- LA




kyraofMists -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 9:39:11 PM)

LOL

I imagine this will end up in the same place as the last couple of threads....

No, I don't have similar opinions. Who a person is is much more important than what they know or how much education they have. But I also know that you have a very different idea about what makes someone who they are than I do. Who you are is about character and that is it for me. If a person has a character that I can admire and respect, then I will want to know more about them.

Knight's Kyra




daddysliloneds -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 9:39:13 PM)


quote:

To sum up, I would allow a mistress to mold me, to change me, even to instill completely new personality in me, but only if I was 100% sure that she is smarter, wiser, more intelligent and more knowledgeable than me, AND if I felt that she is highly ethical and adheres strictly to her moral values which would have to be compatible with my own moral values.


hole in your theory...

if she's marter, wiser, more intelligent, more knowledgeable than you, etc. and you FEEL that she's highly ethical, etc., etc., then you wouldn't be smart enough to know if she was playing you the entire time either.




SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 9:48:33 PM)

I added this to OP, in order to avoid confusion:

quote:

Edited to add:

All of the things previously described apply ONLY to TPE or M/s type of relationship.

I could easily enter D/s relationship with the domme that is of the same intelligence and wisdom as I am, or even lower, but in this case
I would demand total intellectual, political, religious, social and economic independence from her.
I would still serve her, my sexuality would be controlled by her, I would work for her, cater to her whims, engage in BDSM play with her as a submissive,
but she wouldn't be able to significantly influence my attitudes, opinions, beliefs, etc.





kyraofMists -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 9:48:38 PM)

So what is with the obsession of you being a slave?

You have made it abundantly clear that the way many here view M/s is not your cup of tea and yet you keep harping on this subject. Why fixate on this idea of being a slave when you say over and over that you would not give someone complete authority over your life (yes, my prejudice is showing, M/s to me means the one in charge has complete authority over all aspects of the other person's life)?

If being a bottom is going to be what make you happy then why not be a bottom? If being submissive is going to be what makes you happy then find a partner and negotiate which areas they have authority in and which ones they don't. Why are you trying to be something that you so emphatically say over and over again that you are not?

Knight's Kyra




Glasgow -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 9:49:11 PM)

1. It sounds like you were convincing yourself of your own argument. I think we got it at the math example.

2. Imho, submission is not whether or not the M is smarter than I (and, in fact, the majority of people do not know their own IQs. I think asking anyone what their IQ is would be rather rude and pretentious). Without conceit, I can say that I am a very intelligent person. I am not as book smart as some people - I am only a freshman in college, and would not presume to know more than someone older and more educated. Would I only respect a M more intelligent than I? Not at all. Here's why:

For me, being a slave is about the enjoyment of submission. I don't care about his logic or his arguments. If he says something, I do it. I do it not because he has a good argument about why I must wash the dishes, but because I like being bossed. Being able to dominate has nothing to do with IQ.

3. Changing "preferences, beliefs, opinions etc." is (usually) not lightly done for anybody. And honestly, I do not expect that my M would try to change my preferences or beliefs. And if an M tried to actively change my beliefs just for the hell of it, I would probably leave.

4. From what I understand, your argument is based on the requirement that your M convince you of everything before you do it. I'm not sure if you've realized it yet, but this is how life works anyway. Why do you do anything, except that you believe it logically to be the best course of action? It sounds to me that you want a philosophical instructor who is going to take up the responsibility of informing you about the world and teaching you to make big-kid decisions.




Glasgow -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 10:03:29 PM)

[sm=goodpost.gif]




SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 10:07:01 PM)

Really guys, this thread applies only to TPE, ownership, internal enslavement type of relationship.

I could easily enter D/s relationship with someone of the same or even lower intelligence and wisdom than mine. And I would still enjoy the submission and being bossed around and BDSM play. But I wouldn't be able to be a slave to such person. Only submissive, not slave. I would maintain my attitudes, beliefs etc.

In order to be owned completely, in IE or TPE sense, only then the Mistress must be more intelligent, wiser and more knowledgeable to me, and I would also have to find her moral system to be  compatible to mine.




Glasgow -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 10:14:21 PM)

quote:

In order to be owned completely, in IE or TPE sense, only then the Mistress must be more intelligent, wiser and more knowledgeable to me, and I would also have to find her moral system to be  compatible to mine.


I agree strongly about the moral system and wisdom, somewhat with the knowledge, and not at all with the intelligence (although I do admit that I would have a hard time entering a TPE relationship with someone I thought was an idiot).

I suppose, however, that you're not even arguing the point anymore, now that you've got it out of your system.




SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 10:25:29 PM)

quote:

I agree strongly about the moral system and wisdom, somewhat with the knowledge, and not at all with the intelligence


Intelligence is necessary too, because it is a basis for wisdom. You can be intelligent but not wise, but you can hardly be wise if you are not intelligent in the first place.

Wisdom is based on intelligence+experience+intuition+common sense. If you lack intelligence, you can hardly be very wise.




SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 10:55:57 PM)

In my opinion, when it comes to IE or TPE, if one is enslaved to someone who is highly ethical, and at the same time more intelligent, wiser and more knowledgeable than the slave - in this case the slave grows, expands and develops to his/her maximum potentials.

However, if one is enslaved in IE or TPE sense, to someone who is less intelligent, less wise and less knowledgeable than he is, in this case the slave stagnates, shrinks and deteriorates, especially if the Master insists on changing slave's beliefs and attitudes.




MarcEsadrian -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 11:09:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
In my opinion, when it comes to IE or TPE, if one is enslaved to someone who is highly ethical, and at the same time more intelligent, wiser and more knowledgeable than the slave - in this case the slave grows, expands and develops to his/her maximum potentials.


Generally, this is not an unsound sketch to make; we tend to naturally respect the wise and worldly, though I feel "highly ethical" is somewhat dubious. A codified set of rules for one will be different for another. It's more rational to speak of it in terms of "compatibility", or "compatible ethics".




myotherself -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/9/2010 11:58:11 PM)

I find I prefer people who are wiser than me - IQ is much less of an issue.

I couldn't give a flying toss if he doesn't have a wall full of certificates. If he can demonstrate that he has natural intelligence and a compatible approach to me when it comes to the major issues in life as myself, then I'd be ok with that.

'smarts' and IQ are two very different things.




SocratesNot -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/10/2010 12:04:23 AM)

quote:

'smarts' and IQ are two very different things.


Very true. However, there is also a great degree of positive correlation between them.




bestheadyet -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/10/2010 4:36:37 AM)

socratesnot....
my question is....
as young as you are...
why do you pose all these philosophical slavery questions?

you've been advised to get out and experience life.
do you have alot of free time or whatnot to ponder these things or do you enjoy the interaction/reaction it brings to you?






DesFIP -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/10/2010 4:40:06 AM)

Your missing something important here. He's better at decision making than I am. I may be smarter, in his opinion, but I'm not good at making decisions. I try to satisfy everyone else ahead of me, and don't count the cost of what it does to me. His criteria has my welfare first and foremost. And we get out of the grocery store faster with him making the decisions, because with over a hundred different cereals on the shelf, I get paralyzed. He doesn't.




sunshinemiss -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/10/2010 4:46:32 AM)

Oh Celeste - I totally get that cereal thing. I'm the same way with toothpaste! (Now I just go for colgate because of the familiarity factor... or arm and hammer cause baking soda is good... or Tom's of Maine cause it's all natural... of course if one is on sale that does change things. And how much are they per ounce? And well I prefer the flavor of spearmint, but the pump bottle is so appealing... and oooo is that cinnamon! Hey I like that too... maybe there's a coupon...)

*wink
Best,
sunshine




sirsholly -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/10/2010 5:24:14 AM)

quote:

I would allow a mistress to mold me, to change me, even to instill completely new personality in me
behavior can be changed, but the personality can't be.




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom (6/10/2010 5:58:07 AM)

If you like to give away power and don't over romance the issue it's completely irrelevant if someone you consider to be beneath you is above you.

If I was to pick a random stranger in the street the chances of that person knowing something I don't or having a skill I don't have would be very high.

Not because I'm an idiot but because we come from different backgrounds and have a different set of knowledge.

People have this opinion that classical music is somehow superior to other forms, it's snobbery for the most part. I see the same repetitive techniques used in classical that I see used in dance music.




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