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RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 7:17:43 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

I've followed this post and it strikes me that you aren't talking about intelligence or wisdom at all - you simply attracted to the idea of someone who has the ability to hold dominion over you. You talk about superiority - it's a classical male submissive fantasy model IMO.

You're wrong. It is true that idea of superiority is classical male submissive fantasy and it is true that I have this fantasy to some extent as well.
But here, I'm not talking about fantasy. I am talking about wisdom and intelligence as prerogatives for successful leadership.
The one with greater wisdom is more suitable to be the leader. If my wisdom is greater than my Domme's wisdom, then it wouldn't be very wise for us to let her be the leader. If I am the one who is better at making decisions, if I have more common sense, and if I have more wisdom then I want to lead !!! Simple as that.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/11/2010 7:31:48 AM >

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 121

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 7:26:36 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I am talking about wisdom and intelligence as prerogatives for successful leadership.
The one with greater wisdom is more suitable to be the leader. If my wisdom is greater than my Domme's wisdom, then it wouldn't be very wise for us to let her be the leader. If I am the one who is better at making decisions, if I have more common sense, and if I have more wisdom than I want to lead !!! Simple as that.

Who leads when both are equally capable? What happens if both your points of view are valid but opposite?

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 122

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 7:40:19 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Who leads when both are equally capable? What happens if both your points of view are valid but opposite?

If they are equally capable, then any of them can lead. In this case the leadership can be based only on preference. So who prefers to lead will lead, who prefers to follow will follow.

Unfortunately, it can be the case that in a relationship the one who prefers to lead is less capable of leadership than one who prefers to follow.

Ideally, the one who prefers to lead would also be more capable of leadership.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 123

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 7:43:55 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

What happens if both your points of view are valid but opposite?

In the final instance, we can keep it this way - we can agree to disagree. I don't see the reason why would one have to force his point of view to another.

If it is about decision making - then again, who prefers to lead will lead OR they will try to reach some compromise.

The worst thing that can happen in this situation is fighting.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 124

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 7:52:37 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

I've followed this post and it strikes me that you aren't talking about intelligence or wisdom at all - you simply attracted to the idea of someone who has the ability to hold dominion over you. You talk about superiority - it's a classical male submissive fantasy model IMO.

You're wrong. It is true that idea of superiority is classical male submissive fantasy and it is true that I have this fantasy to some extent as well.
But here, I'm not talking about fantasy. I am talking about wisdom and intelligence as prerogatives for successful leadership.
The one with greater wisdom is more suitable to be the leader. If my wisdom is greater than my Domme's wisdom, then it wouldn't be very wise for us to let her be the leader. If I am the one who is better at making decisions, if I have more common sense, and if I have more wisdom then I want to lead !!! Simple as that.

No I'm not.

What you are talking about is a fantasy, requiring a dominant that is superior in every way. That's all cool.
But the reality is much different.

As Masters slave, I follow his rules and instructions yes? But that doesn't make him more knowledgable than me in all subjects. As an example, cooking. I am a fabulous cook and Master loves that I am. That does not stop me submitting to him because I am far more knowledgeble about what tastes best or how long to cook something or because I am more intelligent on this particular subject.
I have very green fingers - Master does not.
Master is good with figures - I am not.
Master is a fabulous writer - I am ok but not as eloquent as he is.
Even the greatest of leaders has their confidents and advisors. No person is greater than another in all things - do you agree or not?

Superiority is the fantasy of that which you are speaking of.

the.dark.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 6/11/2010 7:54:58 AM >

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 125

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 7:53:46 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

This is pure and simple logic. If I am wiser and smarter, how can she know better than me what is best for us and for our relationship? No way! So, she must be both wiser and smarter than me, only then I could accept her authority as legitimate.

Your Logic is Flawed. Because you can't objectively establish the parameters that make one person wiser or smarter that would be universally accepted.

In fact.. the parameters that make a person wiser and smarter will be a subjective valuation. What you might consider to be a smarter and wiser person another may consider to be of average or even irrrelevant to them.

Secondly.. your flawed logic is based on you being universally wiser and smarter on everything, which just doesn't happen. We all are limited in this regard.

Thirdly... being wiser and smarter doesnt' equate to having the courage to decide. Many a person have been gifted with incredible minds but lack the strength of character to take action and decide on a course of action their intelligence deems the proper course. Some people need to dot every I and cross every T in order to move forward with a decision others can make life risking decision in the fog of war. There wisdom and intelligence is only one factor that enters into the decison being made.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 126

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 7:58:56 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

No, I don't have similar opinions.

You may say this, but KoM from my POV comes across as a Dom Snot is describing. One of the reasons you find slavery rewarding is that he's really sharp and on the ball, and he's not a banal, self-serving Dom. Most times when he posts, he demonstrates competence and wisdom.

What Snot is not seeing is that in many ways relationships are partnerships, in which case there will be times when the Top defers to the bottom. The idea that the top is always on top, and that BDSM is omnipresent in a relationship is a misconception, as is the assumption that a Top is by definition a control freak who always has to get his way.

The best leaders know their weaknesses and limitations, and they work with others collaboratively to learn what to do.

Snot's nightmare is the "tyannical" Dom, one who is rigid, "all knowing," paranoid, unable to spot his limitations, insecure, and hell bent on asserting authority at all times.

I agree with Snot's thesis that power derives not from one's title or role, but from one's person. Every sub or slave should expect some leading qualities from their Top, unless they're into humiliation -- in which case a Tyrannical Top might be best suited.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 6/11/2010 8:03:35 AM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 127

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:16:53 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

No I'm not.
What you are talking about is a fantasy, requiring a dominant that is superior in every way. That's all cool.
But the reality is much different.

Absolutely not. I am not requiring that dominant is superior in every way. I am just using it to prove that for me, personally, TPE is absurd.
Allowing someone absolute authority would require absolute superiority - which means that, most likely, I will NOT allow someone absolute authority over me.

quote:

Thirdly... being wiser and smarter doesnt' equate to having the courage to decide. Many a person have been gifted with incredible minds but lack the strength of character to take action and decide on a course of action their intelligence deems the proper course.

Yes, but they still know what is best to do, they just aren't brave enough to do it. So, they would benefit from having Master who will force them to take action according to their own decisions and not according to Master's decisions.

If I had someone to force me to do what I think is best for me to do I would benefit from it.
But I am not sure if I would want to do what someone else think is the best even if I think it is totally wrong.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/11/2010 8:18:28 AM >

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 128

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:22:38 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
there are two types of obedience.

Totally disagree with that. You either obey or you don't. What you described is differences in instructions/orders and not differences in obedience. In our house, obedience is black and white. You either do it or you don't.

Knight's Kyra

No matter what type of relationshiop it is. If you are faced with an authority figure that requires obedience, you have basically three choices.

Obey, disobey or ignore (which is a passive disobedience, but still disobedience.)

And perhaps there are different types of individualistic approaches to obedience: to obey on instinct without question; to obey on faith, trusting that there is a reason behind the request and to obey after careful reflection with the benefit of obedience outweighing the consequence of disobedience.

However, there is still only do, or do not. One is obedience, the other disobedience. That's how I see it.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 6/11/2010 8:26:26 AM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 129

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:32:36 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I am not requiring that dominant is superior in every way. I am just using it to prove that for me, personally, TPE is absurd.

Not as absurd as your position.

Take the 'T' out of TPE and go through the day counting the times you've submitted to an inferior intellect in a power exchange. Everyone does so every day routinely. For example, I just did it responding to you.

Were I to take an inventory of all the things my partner was superior in ability and reasoning it would be a long list. You're naive and flawed viewpoint is a result of sophomoric logic. You eliminate from consideration the most essential aspect of any power exchange, total or limited, TRUST in the other person.

TPE is not based upon ability, skill, wisdom, and sure as hell does not require a higher IQ score. It requires trust. You'd be a fool to submit to Einstein if you couldn't trust him.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 130

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:35:46 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Take the 'T' out of TPE and go through the day counting the times you've submitted to an inferior intellect in a power exchange. Everyone does so every day routinely. For example, I just did it responding to you.

Merc's a switch... Merc's a Switch... Merc's a Switch!!!! and like many of us... a heavy Masocist in making a response to Snot!!!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 131

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:39:47 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

What happens if both your points of view are valid but opposite?

In the final instance, we can keep it this way - we can agree to disagree. I don't see the reason why would one have to force his point of view to another.

If it is about decision making - then again, who prefers to lead will lead OR they will try to reach some compromise.

The worst thing that can happen in this situation is fighting.

Sounds very much like a vanilla relationship to me and I don't get where the M/s or D/s fits in such a relationship.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 132

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:46:59 AM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

I think it's unrealistic and unreasonable to expect someone to be my superior in all areas. I wouldn't date anyone, regardless of their D/s or BDSM orientation who was stupid, lacked common sense, or who wasn't interesting to talk with. I can't submit to someone unless I respond submissively toward him. While I'm sure that intellect plays a part on some level, it's primarily a gut reaction. Something about him just makes me feel vulnerable and at his mercy, makes me want to feel useful and used by him. Integrity and trustworthiness are a higher priority than his knowledge of physics and computers, although most of the guys I've dated have been geeky, and enjoyed that sort of conversation. If I were involved with someone as a submissive or as a slave, and he wanted to control my career, I'd probably only be comfortable with making a major change if he were willing to financially support me, especially if it involved going back for more education, or staying at home. However, if I were looking for a new job, and choosing between two options, I would certainly ask his opinion! In pretty much all other areas, I've been willing to be malleable.

I enjoy certain hobbies, but would take up other ones if he wanted me to do things that he enjoyed as well. I have strong opinions about certain things, and might be incompatible with someone at all if we had a major conflict in those areas, but I'm willing to do things like vote as I am told to, try new things, explore an idea from a different perspective, and so forth. For that matter, if I had a Dominant or a Master, he could make rather arbitrary decisions "because I said so/feel like it" rather than necessarily what is best for us, in some areas. Of course, not ones that were actively bad for us, but many situations have multiple options, and especially during play, he can feel free to be playful and expressive. If he wants me to hang all white shirts, iron and fold all black shirts, and do my best impression of origami with all colored shirts, sure, whatever! It's not exactly a matter of life or death. If he wants me to switch from yoga, gymnastics, and dancing to indoor rock climbing, martial arts, or joining Team In Training to get my exercise, that's well within his authority to set. If he wants me to learn more about interior decorating, fancy cooking, massage, carpentry, gardening, or whatever, I'd be willing to take a class or find other ways of learning them. He doesn't need to be better than me in those areas to tell me to learn more, or to do things a certain way. As long as it doesn't harm either of us, I would just go ahead and do it his way.

The bottom line is, it's not a card game, where each of us writes our IQ down and we see who "wins" and gets to be the dominant based on which is higher.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 6/11/2010 8:48:18 AM >

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 133

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:47:35 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

This is why logic alone fails to be sufficient when it comes to defining human sexuality. When you cannot maintain consistency in defending your idea - then the probability of your premise being fallible is only logical.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 134

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:47:43 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
there are two types of obedience.

Totally disagree with that. You either obey or you don't. What you described is differences in instructions/orders and not differences in obedience. In our house, obedience is black and white. You either do it or you don't.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 135

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:52:43 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

No matter what type of relationshiop it is. If you are faced with an authority figure that requires obedience, you have basically three choices.

Obey, disobey or ignore (which is a passive disobedience, but still disobedience.)

I think that there is substantial difference in obedience to orders such as

"Kneel in front of me!" "You are not allowed to sleep in bed tonight" "Cook the lunch", "Wash my car", "Lick my boots", "Go to the city and buy this, this and this"
"Give me your salary so that I manage our finances" "Come here, so that I tie you up and then torture you" etc this is all TYPE 1

and "Abandon your career as lawyer" "Start listening to black metal" "Stop listening to classical music" "Stop reading Dostoevsky" "Stop using the Internet", etc. this is TYPE 2

I wouldn't have problems with obedience to type 1 requests, but Type 2 would be impossible for me to obey. I think there is substantial difference between 2 types. First type is action oriented, while second type is person oriented. In Type 1 I do something FOR MY MISTRESS. In type 2 she gets involved in my personal stuff which is not her business.

My thinking is - OK, I'll give you money, I'll wash your car, you can spank me, you can punish me, but why the fuck you want to tell me what should I read or listen. If I think that i should read Dostoevsky, then I will read fucking Dostoevsky.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 136

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:54:17 AM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline

your THINKING is flawed since you have adnitted to having no REAL TIME experience,.

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 137

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:54:54 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Thirdly... being wiser and smarter doesnt' equate to having the courage to decide. Many a person have been gifted with incredible minds but lack the strength of character to take action and decide on a course of action their intelligence deems the proper course. Some people need to dot every I and cross every T in order to move forward with a decision others can make life risking decision in the fog of war. There wisdom and intelligence is only one factor that enters into the decison being made.

Excellent point, and one that I think gets overlooked a lot.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 138

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 8:56:18 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

Absolutely not. I am not requiring that dominant is superior in every way. I am just using it to prove that for me, personally, TPE is absurd.
Allowing someone absolute authority would require absolute superiority - which means that, most likely, I will NOT allow someone absolute authority over me.

And yet you said...

quote:

As I said - to such person I would offer everything - my work, service, entertaining them, engaging in all sort of activities with them, my absolute obedience - and even my whole self - to mold it and shape it as they please. But they would really have to PROVE their superiority before my surrender.

So you did say it, even if you did it as qualifier.

But by doing that, you are placing unrealistic expectations and assumptions on a relationship that you have not entered yet.

My only suggestion is that when you eventually do have a relationship of anykind (not even TPE) you will start to learn the art of compromise as people have tried to explain to you, or at least you will need to if you are wanting to have any kind of healthy, stable relationship.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 139

RE: M/s and IQ and wisdom - 6/11/2010 9:01:12 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

Don't be silly. Of course you will submit to authority in situations involving your Type 2 scenario.

You are in class, your Professor sees you reading anything other than material he/she considers suitable for the class you are attending. You are ordered to put the inappropriate reading material away. You obey, or you disobey.

You are a Lawyer, who behaves unethically and are Disbarred for it. The Bar Association tells you that you can no longer be a lawyer. Suffice it to say, you are no longer allowed to practice law, and you must obey the ruling or disobey it.

If your statement cannot be maintained consistently, then your premise is faulty. If your premise is faulty, you should logically rethink the validity of your argument.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 6/11/2010 9:09:19 AM >

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 140

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