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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/4/2010 7:49:58 PM   
VAcontroldom


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Status: offline 		Vincent, you are right about goaltending, but in basketball free throws are awarded to Shaq if he is held up from making a dunk, even though he is only a 50% free throw shooter. The penalty for the handball was a penalty shot (made 70-75% of the time,) and a suspension. Not only do they have a 75% chance of losing, if they miss they still have a 50-50 chance of losing the shootout, for about an 87% chance of losing. It is worth it to them only because it was the end of overtime in a tournament, so it didn't hurt them to be shorthanded and because of the rare miss. "Normally" he makes the shot so they lose that game plus lose the player for the next game which is worse than just losing the game.

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 2:48:07 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The Offside Rule (for Vincent)

To understand the offside rule its useful to first understand "goal-hanging". Goal hanging is hanging around the opposition's goal, near the goalkeeper, ready to take a pass forward and simply tap it into the goal. Without the offside rule this is what happens, and is especially prevalent in small boys' informal games at school. Obviously it unbalances the game, giving the goalkeeper no chance at all.

So to prevent goal hanging the offside rule came into play. This states that when the ball is passed forward towards the opposition goal, there must be at least one opposition outfield player (not the goalkeeper) between your players and the opposition goal. Because getting past the defenders and being left with just the goalkeeper to beat gives one the best chance of an easy goal, one's forward players are now likely to either stand just your side of the opposition defenders so they wont be offside when you pass the ball forward or they are likely to position themselves a few yards towards you with the defenders at their backs, ready to run onto a pass you put past the defenders.

Equally, because the defenders should be joined at the hip in a line one can be put offside by what is known as the offside trap, when the line of defenders comes towards you just before you pass forward, leaving one of your players offside, preventing your attack and giving the ball to your opponent. It takes a lot of courage to play the offside trap at world level though, because of the skills available in terms of passes forward past the defence for your guys to run onto.

England were undone against Germany for one reason - that the defence was all over the place. This allowed Germany to do as above, pass the ball forward to attacking players past the defence. If England's defence had been at all switched on then all four goals could readily have been stopped, one or two by way of the offside trap.

As with all things in football though, whether a player is deemed offside is a matter for the linesman (now "assistant referee") - the guy running the side of the pitch with a flag. There are poor decisions on offside every week in the Premier League and I expect the world over as a result of human error, either for or against the flag being raised for offside. Equally there are decisions for/against which are endlessly debatable since the rule was changed from offside being about an attacker being ahead of the last defender to being in line with him.

We need something better now than the human eye; FIFA have resisted the introduction of technology too long with many injustices and disrespect for the referees arising. After this world cup I cant see such resistance continuing too long with the prizes and the money at stake in the game nowadays. This will not affect Sunday pub leagues or of course boys in the park with jumpers for goalposts.

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 7/5/2010 2:51:14 AM >

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 3:46:29 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		I think it's two players including the goalie, not one player with goalie not counting. So if goalie runs out to try a catch, you can be offside even if there's one defender right back on the goalline. Also if a player is 'inactive' (ie laying down feigning injury) he doesn't count as being offside. You can't be offside from a throwin, or a goal kick, or from passes or other kicks (corners being the main example) from further up the pitch. It leads to weird dancing as some strikers try to stay just barely onside (An Italian player called Inzaghi is said to have been 'born offside', he plays so close to the line) and defenders weigh up trying to put them offside with the risk of failing and giving them a headstart. It also adds an additional element of strategy...defenders can 'force' opposition strikers away from the goal simply by forming their line further up the pitch, strikers have to stay all the way back there or be offside and useless (being offside isn't an offence in itself, only if someone tries to pass to you, or if you interfere somehow), however if the defenders play too far up the pitch, the opposing team'll just boot the ball past them and get their fastest player to race the defenders for it and be one on one with the goalie. This is partly why there are more goals towards the end of matches that haven't been skewed by a change in tactics...defenders get too tired to keep up with strikers sprinting past them, and have to play further and further back towards their own goal. Bringing a fresh speedy young guy on at around the 60th minute is probably the most common substitution, precisely to take advantage of racing tiring defenders.

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 6:33:59 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Thank you, VA. The problem I have with the Shaq comparison is that Shaq is fouled before the shot, even during the shot, or on his way to the basket and he gets his free throws. But if the ball is interrupted even on the downside of the arc a score is awarded for goal-tending. In the futbol situation I wonder what is to stop a team from placing five defenders across in front of the Goal at a crucial moment and having one of them take the card and then taking the chance on the shootout. I guess it all happens too quickly for that sort of strategy. Again, thank you. It just seemed grossly unfair or I am just being to sensitive?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/5/2010 6:35:25 AM >

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 7:06:03 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Thank you both, Lady Ellen and DC, for the info on offsides and defense strategy. I will be able to watch with greater understanding. It does seem the side judge is too far away to make an error free call. We have had "instant replay" in our football for awhile now with each opposing manager alotted two or three challenges much like tennis except the football challenge, if wrong, causes the loss of a time out which could be crucial. Some people argue the system uses too much time and lengthens an already very long afternoon. However, we just had an infamous incident in baseball where the pitcher lost a "perfect game" because of an umpire's admitted wrong call. You may know that the perfect game is the rare jewel of pitching because no one has reached first base in any manner.

It is axiomatic isn't it that we are adult fans of the games we and our fathers played when children? Thinking here of Field of Dreams sort of thing.

Soccer, your football, is the fastest growing team sport today among the young in the States. Not sure why exactly. Perhaps it is the least expensive to organize.

Professional Basketball is dominated by African-Americans, Baseball by Latinos more and more, and Football has an emerging scandal regarding repeated concussions and lasting dementia. But for my generation there is nothing so glorious as seeing a fifty or sixty yard spiraling pass caught and run in for a score.

Thanks again for your help. I think I shall be rooting for the Dutch.


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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 7:08:20 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		Ya probably have a point. What's to stop the team.....most of the time it isn't worth it for the fouler....penalties are usually scored, red card gets sent off, and probable longer suspension and/or fine for such intentional cheating......but, I guess in some situations (like at the end of a world cup finals game) they might think it's a worthwhile suicide......maybe the ref should have the power to award a goal automatically if the foul prevented a certain score, but.....have too many problems with ref decisions already at the moment. On the other side of the coin, they'd have got a penalty even if it'd been done near the edge of the box where defenders would probably have coped fine.

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 7:26:44 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Just me perhaps but I think baseball, as well as soccer, has the right idea...NO instant replay. It slows the game to a snails pace and takes away the human aspect from the game.

Its great to blame the ref when your beloved team bits the dust and you in the UK will be talking about the missed goal for years and years. Now if it had been allowed with an appeal you would have still lost and had nothing to talk about.

Butch

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 7:30:16 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		I'm a proponent of a video ref in football (they're up to 7 referees now, surely one of them could glance at the tv replay), but I don't think the stopping play while they check it out system would suit the game at all.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think football's so popular because of the seemingly limitless skill and depth of tactics. A game like cricket or baseball or rugby.....perhaps I just don't know them as well, but I can't see the scope for as much skill. You said it yourself, in baseball there's a perfect game....people have done it, that's as good as it'll get...in cricket ya can rack up hundreds of runs, but it takes time. Hit 36 an over and that's the limit. Something like rugby or american handegg....yeah you can get a long pass, or one guy run through everyone....but it's not the same as football (or basketball I image).

You can imagine a theoretical perfect play in football, taking the ball from the opponent in 1 second flat with a single kick that's also a 200 mile per hour shot, winning 900-0....but that's never ever going to happen. The relative difficulty of controlling the ball at all...that it isn't actually held in any way, and the nature of the ball and the pitch, and the teamwork...just passing the ball...there is no perfect pass, it could always be better, faster, better brought down, volleyed.

Consider this shot http://www.wimp.com/goalexplained/

That's mindbogglingly good....no-one will ever do anything in cricket near good as that, because it just isn't within the scope of the game. There is no running that fast, aiming for targets that small, doing something that difficult...it's just not in the game. And someone will (has, just wasn't recorded) score a better goal than that someday....and that applies to every aspect of the game, passing, shooting, dribbling, heading....movement. Plus there's the tactics involved, so simple....yet so complex....far moreso than any other sport I can think of.

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 7:34:44 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		We might not have. The main failing in our team was our central defenders (particularly Terry) getting pulled out of position, dragged forward and caught on the counter attack.
Because the germans were sitting back defending, and we had to go forward and score. At 2-2, we wouldn't have been playing so far forward and they would have been so far back. The Germans were (are) the better team, but it's far from certain we would have lost anyway, little things change games.

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 7:42:43 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Win or loose is not the point... it is and should be a human game... not an electronic measure…what is the fun in that. You would turn the great game of soccer into track where machines measure to the millisecond if necessary who crosses the line first. Pretty boring don't you think...boring just like our constant replays in American football.

I’d much rather scream…Kill the Umpire.

Butch

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 12:59:02 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Ya probably have a point. What's to stop the team.....most of the time it isn't worth it for the fouler....penalties are usually scored, red card gets sent off, and probable longer suspension and/or fine for such intentional cheating......but, I guess in some situations (like at the end of a world cup finals game) they might think it's a worthwhile suicide......maybe the ref should have the power to award a goal automatically if the foul prevented a certain score, but.....have too many problems with ref decisions already at the moment. On the other side of the coin, they'd have got a penalty even if it'd been done near the edge of the box where defenders would probably have coped fine.



Okay, I accept your point that usually penalties are not worth the consequences. I don't understand your last sentence. Which box do you mean? The smaller I presume. I don't know their names. (very ignorant I'm afraid) What are you saying with "they would have got a penalty ... where the defenders would probably have coped fine?" Seems a contradiction.

Thanks for your patience.

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 1:41:13 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think football's so popular because of the seemingly limitless skill and depth of tactics. A game like cricket or baseball or rugby.....perhaps I just don't know them as well, but I can't see the scope for as much skill. You said it yourself, in baseball there's a perfect game....people have done it, that's as good as it'll get...in cricket ya can rack up hundreds of runs, but it takes time. Hit 36 an over and that's the limit. Something like rugby or american handegg....yeah you can get a long pass, or one guy run through everyone....but it's not the same as football (or basketball I image).


I should explain the "perfect game" in baseball more fully. It is true the pitcher's name goes down in the record book. In fact, they are so rare that only 18 pitchers have ever thrown them dating back to about 1900. And one fellow actually threw two back to back ... Johnny van de Meer on June 11th and then again on June 15th 1938 against two different teams.

Although the pitcher receives all the credit and he has to be quite excellent on that day with control over the speed, spin, and movement of the baseball he is throwing at over 90 mph, it is really a team effort on the defense. The pitcher is usually supported by some extraordinary stops in the field behind him.

Additionally, great credit should go to the Catcher for he does not just squat behind the batter to passively receive the ball. Oh no, he uses hand signals to direct the pitcher as to what kind of pitch to throw depending on his stored knowledge of the batters and the count of strikes and balls, and very importantly where in the imaginary box to pinpoint the ball. There is quite a skill involved in the Catcher's leading and coaching of the Pitcher and in the Pitcher's command of a variety of pitches which are governed by the laws of physics and according to his skill may be made to bend this way or that or even drop quite suddenly. Perhaps you are not familiar with the skills involved in making the ball curve, slide or drop. No two "perfect games" are ever the same. Not at all possible.

As to American Eggball the number of skilled Quarterbacks (that's the guy leading the team and throwing the ball) who reach the rarified heights of truly admired Football Gods is pretty small. In addition to throwing, his mental skills involve reading the Defense which is ever fluid, deceitful, and changing, then checking off to a different play to meet a sudden new challenge. It is not at all as simple as you infer from your vantage point across the Pond.

Okay, I watched the video of Roberto Carlos' "improbable kick." I have a few observations and questions. Now, DC, it is not my intention to get into a cross-cultural food fight over sports skills here and I accept your observation there is a great deal of skill and strategy in your game about which I know so little. Furthermore, evidently the goal keeper did not touch the ball else it would have been scored as an "own goal" right? That aside, what struck me is that all the physics is after the fact. He did this, he did that, with this spin or that, etc. And that is fine analysis. But I wonder if in the moment Roberto had any intention other then kicking a crossing pass and hoping one of his mates would finish it with a header. I would think if he is really that skilled should he not be able to repeat the feat some percentage of time? Say, give him 100 similar shots with no defensive pressure would he not be expected to repeat? Or was it just luck as so often happens in any sport?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/5/2010 1:52:56 PM >

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 2:11:28 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Now vince...don't bust his bubble...of course it was all planned...he knew everyone would be expecting a crossing pass to mates so after figuring the humidity...relative air pressure and direction...he calculated the exact height and spin required to miss the keepers fingers by .5287 inches and curve into the corner of the goal... you are soooo silly to think it blind desperation luck...all skill you colonials and your football could not possibly comprehend....

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/5/2010 4:21:09 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Now vince...don't bust his bubble...of course it was all planned...he knew everyone would be expecting a crossing pass to mates so after figuring the humidity...relative air pressure and direction...he calculated the exact height and spin required to miss the keepers fingers by .5287 inches and curve into the corner of the goal... you are soooo silly to think it blind desperation luck...all skill you colonials and your football could not possibly comprehend....




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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/6/2010 2:02:04 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		I meant that even if the defender had handballed it near the edge of the larger box(penalty box), in a situation where even if he hadn't handballed it, there still probably would not have been a goal....still penalty (and therefore probably a goal).

"It is not at all as simple as you infer from your vantage point across the Pond."
I certainly wasn't suggesting it was unskilled or simple....but IMO there isn't as much scope as there is in football. I say the same about Rugby, a game I enjoy (I live in Leicester).

" evidently the goal keeper did not touch the ball else it would have been scored as an "own goal" right?"

Nah, wouldn't have counted as an own goal, just a failed save.

" But I wonder if in the moment Roberto had any intention other then kicking a crossing pass and hoping one of his mates would finish it with a header. I would think if he is really that skilled should he not be able to repeat the feat some percentage of time? Say, give him 100 similar shots with no defensive pressure would he not be expected to repeat? Or was it just luck as so often happens in any sport?"

I suspect it was probably intentional, to cross he'd have not kicked it with the outside of his foot, to do so accidentally isn't a small mistake for a player of his caliber. However, I accept there's a good chance individual things like that are pure luck...certainly a lot of things happen like that which are fluke....but not most.

How many times should he statistically speaking have mistakenly scuffed a cross with the outside of his foot in other games before it went in by fluke? For all the moments of immense skill ya see in games they'd have to be cram full of balls flying all over the shop in weird directions. For some players who attempt very long distance shots now and again, the vast majority of those that don't go in are very close to doing so, or intercepted by goalie.


And, to some extent the luck/skill balance doesn't matter for my point, whether one specific incident it more by luck or skill isn't important for the point, merely that it occured....and in most other sports, nothing comparable would have.....there isn't scope within most other games for anything requiring that much skill OR luck or combination thereof to happen. Not without bouncing off a seagull or whatever.

Then again, maybe I'm just fanatic :)

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/6/2010 7:38:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

And, to some extent the luck/skill balance doesn't matter for my point, whether one specific incident it more by luck or skill isn't important for the point, merely that it occured....and in most other sports, nothing comparable would have.....there isn't scope within most other games for anything requiring that much skill OR luck or combination thereof to happen. Not without bouncing off a seagull or whatever.

Then again, maybe I'm just fanatic :)


Maybe we all are. As I said earlier, Field of Dreams. We live and die by the sports we and our dads played as kids.

I shall be watching today.

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/6/2010 8:01:17 AM   
PeanutTigerinBox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

Well, seems like composure and the proper way to purport oneself has left the tournament with the English team.



What tournament? A tournament without England is not worth having........


yeah right

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/6/2010 9:55:39 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeanutTigerinBox


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


What tournament? A tournament without England is not worth having........


yeah right


Bad girl...lol...where is your compassion.... I read once where the loss of sporting event to some people was the equivalent in mental anguish to a divorce….I believe it.

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/6/2010 10:35:24 AM   
PeanutTigerinBox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeanutTigerinBox


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


What tournament? A tournament without England is not worth having........


yeah right


Bad girl...lol...where is your compassion.... I read once where the loss of sporting event to some people was the equivalent in mental anguish to a divorce….I believe it.


compassion is sold out here, I am so sorry

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RE: 2010 Football World Cup. - 7/8/2010 3:55:05 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		A Netherlands v Spain final it is then.

Could have gone either way easily last night until Spain took the game on properly. Even then Germany had lots of good chances.

So its "hup Holland hup" Sunday night here.

E

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