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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 2:47:12 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Calla,

We are actually of the same belief when it comes to the idea of someone not wanting to accept treatment for a terminal illness. The problem is that you don't seem to allow for the depressed person who just feels nothing would ever get better and wants to end it all. They are phsycially healthy, but mentally depressed. Do you feel they are making a "rational" decision to blow their brains out, or do you do what is necessary to "force" upon them the psychiatric care they need.


I understand that, and as I said earlier, it is definitely a place where you and I diverge. To be more clear, that place comes with the word "force". If I were approached by a person who was depressed, and who came to me for assistance in finding a way to hold on and not give in to hir despair, I would do everything in my power to provide the resources to enable that to happen. If I learned about someone who was in this state, and the individual did not approach me, but, instead, I approached hir to offer support, I would -OFFER-... but I would not "force". I would make recommendations, and it would be up to that person to decide whether or not to take that offer. You see, I suspect that I strongly diverge from much of the First World population in my ideas about this. It is my belief that, should a person decide that, for whatever reason, xhe no longer wishes to live this life, as long as xhe has attended to all of hir responsibilities and tied up all hir loose ends, xhe is within hir rights to decide that xhe no longer wants to maintain her energy in the physical form that xhe is now linked to. Regardless of terminal illness or anything else, I strongly believe that people -must- be able to choose, unequivocally, what happens to their own bodies. Where I draw the line is what we do to -other- people: mind, spirit, AND body. Even for my servants, I do not -force- their obedience. They stay, and they obey, and they serve because they -choose- to yield to me. If they were to change their minds. I would release them -- with some sadness, as the ones who have served us under these terms have, for the most part, been wonderful, expressive, talented, and dedicated individuals -- but with complete respect for their right to retain at least that measure of sovereignty over their own being. I completely embrace my responsibility to those who yield themselves to me, and have no problem whatsoever in maintaining authority over the lives of those who offer themselves in service. However, that one choice -- whether to yield or not -- resides on a day-to-day basis with the one who offers that life... not with me.

Living or dying is the absolute right of the individual, in my mind, as long as xhe is competent to live on hir own and make decisions for hirself -- and, for me, I don't think that, in and of itself, a decision to end one's life indicates "incompetence".  It is my contention that the compulsion to deny an individual's right to live or die as xhe chooses and when xhe chooses is a societal impulse that is rooted in fear of death, and in religious dogma ("suicide is a sin" and "only a god can decide when a person should live or die") to which I do not ascribe, and which, frankly, I often find coercive and manipulative. While I respect others' rights to their beliefs, their rights end at the boundary of my flesh.

quote:

This is the same type of situation, when you add to that what I keep repeating and everyone seems to be completely missing. It wasn't THIS girl's desire to become pro-ana. It was this girl's desire to be the perfect, obedient slave, and her ability to decide who to serve is sorely lacking.


We don't _know_ what this woman's "desire" was -- I know, from having worked with professionals who deal with ana/mia regularly (mostly because I'm heavily involved in the GLBT community -- any idea what percentage of gay men and TGs are also ana/mia -- answer: more than you'd guess!!!) that it is nearly impossible to sustain ana/mia regimentation without the -internal mindset- to support it. It is a rigorous, often painful, and typically complicated way to live.

I have no idea whether this woman wanted the structure to be able to become more efficient at what she was doing, or whether she was genuinely involved in an unhealthy and unconsensual assault on her body. Without having the opportunity to speak with all the people involved and have a picture of the situation from the beginning, even the professionals I work with would have trouble sorting that out (and they wouldn't try), and this is why my attitude tends towards the "hands off" approach, once I've offered what sound advice I can -- because I can't know what was/is going on inside that person's head, and I am not qualified to judge competence with an open mind on the subject -- so my choice is to err on the side of personal freedom, because that is my philosophical bend. Someone else might err on the side of intervention, and that is something they must weigh on -their- conscience -- for me, my conscience would not allow me to strip away another person's freedom of choice, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter.

Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 3:07:36 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

We don't _know_ what this woman's "desire" was -- I know, from having worked with professionals who deal with ana/mia regularly (mostly because I'm heavily involved in the GLBT community -- any idea what percentage of gay men and TGs are also ana/mia -- answer: more than you'd guess!!!) that it is nearly impossible to sustain ana/mia regimentation without the -internal mindset- to support it. It is a rigorous, often painful, and typically complicated way to live.

I have no idea whether this woman wanted the structure to be able to become more efficient at what she was doing, or whether she was genuinely involved in an unhealthy and unconsensual assault on her body. Without having the opportunity to speak with all the people involved and have a picture of the situation from the beginning, even the professionals I work with would have trouble sorting that out (and they wouldn't try)


Wonderfully stated! :)

I have a hunch and maybe you can help me with this. I think it is possible for the mindset to be in existence, but maybe not in a manner where the individual accurately identifies it as such. We're still on the behavioral end, with peculiar actions that haven't been connected so to speak. I suspect there is an event or something profound that brings those things together. The mere discovery of pro-ana could do such, or it could reference other things that invariably hit a trigger that flips the switch on. Did you encounter this in your work with others? Where they were able to reference a definitive moment when they knew it wasn't a quirk but something more? I'm of the belief that needs to be present before ana can really take root. Perhaps you can expound?

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 3:53:24 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		Porcelaine, below is what I've seen in the 30 years that I've been doing ministerial support. I want to caution you, thought, that much of this is still in the "theory" form. There is so much diversity in the people I've seen that it's almost like choosing a religious philosophy -- what brings a person to that choice is very individual.

quote:

Did you encounter this in your work with others?

Every individual that I've worked with who was involved in pro-ana/pro-mia also had other obsessive issues, and this is why most of the professionals that I work with treat this as a variation of OCD. However, it doesn't seem to respond to medication like typical OCD often does, so one of the practitioners I work with is theorizing that ana/mia may be a form of autistic dysperception in combination with OCD, and this theory seems to be borne out in the one person who is pro-ana/pro-mia whom I'm close enough to to have actually seen inside hir life for nearly hir entire life.

quote:

Where they were able to reference a definitive moment when they knew it wasn't a quirk but something more? I'm of the belief that needs to be present before ana can really take root. Perhaps you can expound?


Most of the people I've talked with who are pro-ana/pro-mia are worried that they're all alone in their obsessive need to control their bodies this way, and once they realize that they're not alone, they'll be much more open about the things they've already been doing in secret.. I find it interesting that many of the individuals of both genders whom I've worked with have gravitated towards career fields that actually -encourage- their behaviors... dance, modeling, acting, etc., where outside individuals do not chastize them for how they act, but actually encourage them to continue the behaviors.

The situation is different, btw, for the individuals I've worked with who are "situationally anorexic" or "situationally bulimic" -- these are usually related to stress... either a traumatic situation in their lives or ongoing stressors that take their control away -- and the one thing they -can- control is their food intake. To be honest, the individuals in this camp tend to be the ones who have the most health risks, and who often engage in other unhealthy behaviors as well. The individuals in this group also tend to choose attention-seeking means of managing their weight, rather than the quietly obsessive means used by the long-term pro-ana/pro-mia grouping.

It has been both horrible and enlightening to me to have a close relative who is actively ana/mia. There was this part of me, in the beginning, who really wanted to spare hir what I saw as devastation... and then I took a good look at the art xhe'd created for the past 15 years, and I realized that the issue is only partly physical -- xhe finds bones and skin stretched over bones to be stunningly beautiful, and explained to me that it is raw, basic, and primal for hir -- and xhe wants to -be- what xhe finds attractive in the world. Hir buildings are skeletons of steel covered in sheer membranes--not solid, dense structures. Hir forests are of trees that are thin trunks with fingers of branches, with only the finest lacing of leaves. Hir animals are strong and capable, but overly long, bone-thin -- almost wraith-like in structure. Hir human figures are transparent and their "frames" are evident and lovingly wrought. Once I realized how xhe saw the world, I completely understood why xhe was obsessed with re-creating hir body in that image. It still makes me very uncomfortable, because I worry about hir health, but I decided that xhe has the right to decide. I offer hir advice -- sometimes xhe takes it, sometimes not. Often, it depends on whether I go in with a nagging approach or just offer info off-the-cuff... the more xhe feels like I am trying to take away hir right to be who xhe sees hirself as, the more likely xhe is to blow off my best intended support.

I don't know if this will help -- it's just what I've observed over the years, and with being inside the life of my family member who chose this road.

Calla




_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 5:17:13 PM   
FetishRose


Posts: 212
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline 		As someone who has been anorexic as a child and young teen, and also as someone who has served Domme's who have a food control kink...that is going way too far.
I understand food control kinks, but to willingly starve another human being to death?  And to allow yourself to be starved to death?  Horrendous.  And so so very sad.


_____________________________

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 7:33:13 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I think you're missing the point of that comment. Just because there have been no changes in her physical appearance or medical clues that one can pinpoint doesn't mean she never did it.


quote:

Yes, how would you override that for a long period of time?


As others have mentioned, something called "Stockholm Syndrome" could be at play. I'm not missing the point at all. You do seem to be under the impression that a woman who is barely past being in her parents' care would have hidden such changes.

No, I'm saying that he didn't do it all by himself. Something you refuse to recognize because you view the choice element as mental incompetence.

I've never indicated that it doesn't take two. What I'm pointing out is the FACT that this was something he was seeking in a slave. Regardless of whether or not she had a prediliction towards the DISEASE (and make no mistake, it is a disease, not a lifestyle choice), she suffers from mental incompetency, under both psychiatric guidelines AND under the law, both something I have a background in, so I'm not merely theorizing, but making statements based on actual knowledge, given the scenario we are given. Unlike you, I have not drifted off to half formed facts about the minds of anorexics or bulimics, nor am I willing to take the route that if she did have some kind of prediliction towards the disease, her moron is then without culpubility because she consented.

Rule number one of BDSM: Someone who is not mentally competent CAN NOT consent.

quote:


You're making sweeping assumptions. I have never promoted this way of living or advocated its practice. What I have said is that the people involved are often willing participants. The mere fact you have trouble swallowing that reality is your problem, not mine. It doesn't make the reality less factual, save in your mind.

~porcelaine



I'm not making "sweeping assumptions." I'm stating flatout that you present semi factual information as though you were an expert on the subject. I never once said you advocated its practice either. Saying the the people involved in it are often willing participants is like commenting that if you go out in the rain you will get wet. In other words, you state the obvious as though you had a brain storm instead of a brain fart.

Since the majority of pro-ana/pro-mia participants are not also involved in M/s relationships, of course they are "willing participants." What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that being a willing participant does not equal making a competent, rational decision. The mere fact that they are a willing participant is evidence of their mental instability.

I don't know what it is that you purport to do in your outside life, but I think it is safe to assume that you aren't in any of the mental health fields. If you are, your license should be revoked.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 7:54:04 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: January

Look, you can be an armchair BDSM protector all you want, Lafayette, but until YOU are actually calling the cops on someone you feel is being abusive in a kink relationship, you're all theory. How often have you actually intervened on behalf of someone IRL you feel is being victimized?


This isn't about being an armchair "BDSM protector." This is about protecting those who aren't able to protect themselves, regardless of any kink they may be involved in.

So while you are trying to be a smart ass and assume that I don't back up my words with actions, you would be wrong, so I hope you haven't put any money on it. I HAVE actually had to step in, I HAVE actually called the cops, and I HAVE intervened on behalf of people who are being victimized. On many occassions. Sorry I don't keep a statistica analysis of whether or not they were kinky.

quote:


IMO, your views are highly simplistic. Just because someone doesn't agree with your specific boundaries doesn't mean they tolerate everything. There's arguing on a board, there is actually knowing this starving girl and intervening, there is gathering more data on the situation, there is acting firmly on behalf of a loved one. In your posts it seems as if all of these actions are equally significant to you. I don't think they are. Moralizing and acting on those morals are worlds apart.


I'm not talking about people who don't agree with my specific boundaries. There are plenty of things that people do that I think they have to be off their nut to do, but the relative danger of the activity doesn't require intervention. I made a point of saying that the OP should try to get more information so she CAN intervene. My response is based on the information that we currently have. Nothing more, nothing less. I've made no assumptions beyond the fact that someone who is anorexic is suffering from a mental illness, and that someone who calls themselves "master" who intentionally wastes his slave down to nothing is a moron. I won't ever apologize for those statements, and yes, if I had the information that would permit personal intervention, I would not be afraid to do so.

You're quite correct, there is a girl starving and information has been given. I think the difference is that I don't need to see someone as a "loved one" to act on their behalf. As mentioned earlier, I am able to ACT on my morals and have dones so many times over the course of my life. This included complete strangers.

quote:


Though, as I said before, I believe the starvation can be within the realm of kink, if it was my twenty-year old child who was being forced to eat 1/2 cup of rice a day, I'd stop at nothing to protect her. In my family, we call that the Mom SWAT team.

January


And THIS makes my point. If it was your daughter, you would intervene. For a stranger you turn your back. Just so you know, SWAT teams go in and save strangers as well as the people they love. So you are only able to act on your morals when it involves your loved ones. I am able to expand acting on my morals to anyone in need. I don't need to apologize for it, and the funny thing is that while so many think I may be naive, and overly simplistic, I bet you would be damn glad if it was happening to your daughter and she was too far away for you to intervene and someone like me stepped in and did it for you.

(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 8:07:04 PM   
graceadieu


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Meh just balance it out - she's likely not going to live to 80 so all the expensive treatment she would have needed as an elderly person is getting paid for now rather than later.


At this rate, she's not likely to live to 21.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 8:09:23 PM   
graceadieu


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

i still do not really see the possibility of the master being prosecuted or regulated... sure the parents might get her into a hospital to force feed her for a while, or maybe even a mental hospital where she might get therapy to get a handle on her disorder, but in the end it is indeed the girl who has to get control of her own problem... and the weirdo master will most likely find another girl keen to starve herself.


I don't think he'd get murder 1, since she was in fact the one starving herself, but encouraging her to starve herself and not doing anything to help her definitely falls under the realm of negligent homicide.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 8:12:49 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

I don't think he'd get murder 1, since she was in fact the one starving herself, but encouraging her to starve herself and not doing anything to help her definitely falls under the realm of negligent homicide.


Actually, in many states, an accomplice to an act is charged the same, meaning he could get 1st degree murder. Let's not forget that what we know so far is that he IS effectively the one controlling and demanding this, meaning he is the one who, with premeditation, malice and very sick planning is killing her.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 6:32:05 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As others have mentioned, something called "Stockholm Syndrome" could be at play. I'm not missing the point at all. You do seem to be under the impression that a woman who is barely past being in her parents' care would have hidden such changes.


I'm going to say this s-l-o-w-l-y. Suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about when we're both responding to secondhand information provided by erin, and then making the tremendous leap to Stockholm Syndrome is ridiculous. You are no more qualified to suggest what's going on than I am. But you sure have an issue with people that don't agree with your interpretation of the problem.

quote:

I've never indicated that it doesn't take two. What I'm pointing out is the FACT that this was something he was seeking in a slave.


You don't have the facts. Can you dig it? I mean really. Can you wrap your mind around that reality? I'm thinking no. And you wonder what I'm doing for a living? Right.

quote:

I'm not merely theorizing, but making statements based on actual knowledge, given the scenario we are given. Unlike you, I have not drifted off to half formed facts about the minds of anorexics or bulimics, nor am I willing to take the route that if she did have some kind of prediliction towards the disease, her moron is then without culpubility because she consented.


Get off your soapbox. You're providing an opinion on a conversation someone posted on a fetish site. You are no more informed than I am. We view the situation differently and have our own perspectives. I'm perfectly okay with that. But it appears you're having an issue with it.

quote:

Rule number one of BDSM: Someone who is not mentally competent CAN NOT consent.


Settle down. Your rules mean squat in their relationship. A situation you're hearing about through someone else.

quote:

I'm not making "sweeping assumptions." I'm stating flatout that you present semi factual information as though you were an expert on the subject. I never once said you advocated its practice either. Saying the the people involved in it are often willing participants is like commenting that if you go out in the rain you will get wet. In other words, you state the obvious as though you had a brain storm instead of a brain fart.


I never claimed to be an expert. And I'm certain that I didn't use that terminology. Now if you inferred that through your own intellect who's problem is that? Hmm, here's a hint... yours.

What's even worse is that you're so adamant in making your point that you've justified the insults hurled. I mean seriously, it's a message board. This isn't a part of your reality. And I understand being passionate and all, but give me a break. You can state your point without being inflammatory.

quote:

I don't know what it is that you purport to do in your outside life, but I think it is safe to assume that you aren't in any of the mental health fields. If you are, your license should be revoked.


A charge made by someone arguing with virtual strangers that fail to validate her perspective. Now who's the sadder of the two? I suggest that you spend less time worrying about my perceived license and more energy repairing the frays in your own backyard. It would seem that things are in disarray.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 6:50:41 AM   
Neboysha


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Original: LafayetteLady:
I bet you would be damn glad if it was happening to your daughter and she was too far away for you to intervene and someone like me stepped in and did it for you.


On this one, I am with LafayetteLady. I don't find her posts inflammatory. This is the strongest of her arguments -  of course that I'd be glad if someone like LadyLafayette tried to rescue my daughter from such situation. I think that every responsible parent feels the same.

And also:
quote:

Rule number one of BDSM: Someone who is not mentally competent CAN NOT consent.


Nothing can be truer than this. And in situations such as anorexia, regardless of what caused such condition, people are not mentally competent. They have distorted body image. They can't decide what is good for them. Even in vanilla situations anorexia impairs rational thought. In D/s dynamics it is even more true, because natural anorexic tendencies are combined with strong urge to please the Master, which leads to even more impairment in rational reasoning.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 7:11:33 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Porcelaine, below is what I've seen in the 30 years that I've been doing ministerial support. I want to caution you, thought, that much of this is still in the "theory" form. There is so much diversity in the people I've seen that it's almost like choosing a religious philosophy -- what brings a person to that choice is very individual.


Thank you Ma'am for responding. I understand it's your perspective, but given your experiences - both personally and professionally - the feedback gained could be of assistance. :)

quote:

Every individual that I've worked with who was involved in pro-ana/pro-mia also had other obsessive issues, and this is why most of the professionals that I work with treat this as a variation of OCD. However, it doesn't seem to respond to medication like typical OCD often does, so one of the practitioners I work with is theorizing that ana/mia may be a form of autistic dysperception in combination with OCD, and this theory seems to be borne out in the one person who is pro-ana/pro-mia whom I'm close enough to to have actually seen inside hir life for nearly hir entire life.


From a rational perspective the OCD slant really makes sense. The individual would need a tremendous ability to do and deny. The two are dependent on the other. The denial can't stand without the obsession and the idea falls apart without implementation. The idea of thinspiration is heavily promoted, but there are admitted instances of "falling off the wagon" which says a great deal about those that are able to continue this long term.

quote:

Most of the people I've talked with who are pro-ana/pro-mia are worried that they're all alone in their obsessive need to control their bodies this way, and once they realize that they're not alone, they'll be much more open about the things they've already been doing in secret.


For the most part they were unless they discovered the underground resources available on the Internet. I remember when this came out of the closet several years ago. Oprah did an expo and encouraged parents of young girls to watch the program. My daughter was still a minor and just hitting puberty. It was very graphic and we were pretty shocked. I understood the corresponding conditions quite well, but this was a different animal altogether. You had to hunt to find the information back then, but now it's out in the open.

quote:

I find it interesting that many of the individuals of both genders whom I've worked with have gravitated towards career fields that actually -encourage- their behaviors... dance, modeling, acting, etc., where outside individuals do not chastize them for how they act, but actually encourage them to continue the behaviors.


Consider the common bonds in the industries noted. Appearance is very important. All place an emphasis on some level of creativity and varying levels of independence. No clock punching either. It's assignment driven. And with all the other vices present, failing to eat or binging isn't such a big deal.

quote:

The situation is different, btw, for the individuals I've worked with who are "situationally anorexic" or "situationally bulimic" -- these are usually related to stress... either a traumatic situation in their lives or ongoing stressors that take their control away -- and the one thing they -can- control is their food intake.


Two emotions come to mind in the group mentioned -- fear and anger. And it shifts. Fear of losing control and abject fury when threatened. So where do those desiring emaciation fall in?

quote:

To be honest, the individuals in this camp tend to be the ones who have the most health risks, and who often engage in other unhealthy behaviors as well. The individuals in this group also tend to choose attention-seeking means of managing their weight, rather than the quietly obsessive means used by the long-term pro-ana/pro-mia grouping.


What methods have you encountered thus far?

quote:

and then I took a good look at the art xhe'd created for the past 15 years


It was always there. Right under you nose all the time. It's my belief that is usually the case. It sits in the shadows. Often undetected unless you know what to look for. I'm uncertain if the sufferer is consciously aware of its presence all that time.

quote:

Once I realized how xhe saw the world, I completely understood why xhe was obsessed with re-creating hir body in that image.


There are arguments regarding the presence of BDD. But my understanding of the disorder wouldn't allow me to make that assessment across the board for all ana/mia sufferers. I think there's a striking difference on how the body is seen. But I believe there's a scale involved. Grotesque to one is beautiful to another as you have eloquently expressed.

quote:

the more xhe feels like I am trying to take away hir right to be who xhe sees hirself as, the more likely xhe is to blow off my best intended support.


Dismissal or anger are often how the individual responds. I've learned that from personal experience. It's in their head. And changing what's taking place inside of there is much harder than most realize. Concern is obvious, but our societal influences regarding the behavior are difficult to shut off.

Thank you again. I really appreciated your input.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 7:17:22 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neboysha

On this one, I am with LafayetteLady. I don't find her posts inflammatory. This is the strongest of her arguments -  of course that I'd be glad if someone like LadyLafayette tried to rescue my daughter from such situation. I think that every responsible parent feels the same.


I have never suggested non interference in any of the posts I've provided. I've discussed the condition and the mindset many of its adherents possess. Everything we're discussing is hypothetical and I'm well aware there are bits of the puzzle that I don't have. I'm making a lucky guess as we all are based on what we've been told. I respect the differences in opinion and I don't need to condemn someone that thinks differently. That's part of being an individual.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Neboysha)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 9:03:47 AM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		Hunger hurts but starving works!
Nothing tastes as good as looking good!
A moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips!



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<-- Easily amused.
<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!


(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 9:15:47 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

Hunger hurts but starving works!
...


Love the song and lyrics that goes with those words....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK30r_SIZ-g

(in reply to DarlingSavage)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 9:35:32 AM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		Nice video, I like it, too, though I didn't know it was a song before now.

_____________________________

<-- Easily amused.
<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!


(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 11:27:26 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As others have mentioned, something called "Stockholm Syndrome" could be at play. I'm not missing the point at all. You do seem to be under the impression that a woman who is barely past being in her parents' care would have hidden such changes.


I'm going to say this s-l-o-w-l-y. Suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about when we're both responding to secondhand information provided by erin, and then making the tremendous leap to Stockholm Syndrome is ridiculous. You are no more qualified to suggest what's going on than I am. But you sure have an issue with people that don't agree with your interpretation of the problem.


You can speak as slowly as your brain works for all I care. The fact that it is YOU who has difficult understanding what I'm saying is no one's fault but your own. I said that Stockholm Syndrome, which was brought up by others MAY be part of the problem.

You, who seem to be unable to understand what the original post was about instead decided to go off on how this girl must have had the tendencies to start with, because you conveniently skipped over the portion where erin mentioned that she didn't.

quote:


You don't have the facts. Can you dig it? I mean really. Can you wrap your mind around that reality? I'm thinking no. And you wonder what I'm doing for a living? Right.


Perhaps you should go back and read the OP's posts S-L-O-W-L-Y. It was stated very early on that it was something HE sought out in a slave. Can you wrap your head around THAT reality? I'm making statements and forming opinions based on what we have been told. You are making statements based on your conception of pro-ana that it would appear you have read off a web site.

quote:


Get off your soapbox. You're providing an opinion on a conversation someone posted on a fetish site. You are no more informed than I am. We view the situation differently and have our own perspectives. I'm perfectly okay with that. But it appears you're having an issue with it.


And the point of the post was whether or not it should fall under the umbrella of "kink." I have stuck to that subject continually. You have never eaven touch on it, but instead have continued to try and absolve the moron master because in your unbiased, uneducated opinion, she was already involved/predisposed and they lucked into each other.

As for whether I'm more informed than you or not. Well, I will let you continue on your little delusion there. I'm fine with us having different perspectives. I have a different perspective than Calla as well, only I still have respect for her.

What YOUR problem is is that you don't understand the concept of someone saying they would step in and intervene. Of course, perhaps it is YOU or is the girl starving herself and that is why you are so defensive of her right to do so.

quote:

Rule number one of BDSM: Someone who is not mentally competent CAN NOT consent.

Settle down. Your rules mean squat in their relationship. A situation you're hearing about through someone else.


That isn't MY rule. That is the general rule throughout this community. Perhaps you should read up on it some.


quote:

I'm not making "sweeping assumptions." I'm stating flatout that you present semi factual information as though you were an expert on the subject. I never once said you advocated its practice either. Saying the the people involved in it are often willing participants is like commenting that if you go out in the rain you will get wet. In other words, you state the obvious as though you had a brain storm instead of a brain fart.


I never claimed to be an expert. And I'm certain that I didn't use that terminology. Now if you inferred that through your own intellect who's problem is that? Hmm, here's a hint... yours.

You have been attempting to come across as though you are an expert on the subject of anorexia, and know all about it. Of course your questioning Calla on it shows that the statements you made earlier, were as I said, semi factual information that you read somewhere and believed every word of it because you didn't know any better. You will continue to not know any better I'm sure just as you will continue to not be able to read everything that the OP writes and then be annoyed when someone points out the facts you missed. Get over it.



quote:


What's even worse is that you're so adamant in making your point that you've justified the insults hurled. I mean seriously, it's a message board. This isn't a part of your reality. And I understand being passionate and all, but give me a break. You can state your point without being inflammatory.


Justified which insults? Towards you? Let's face it kiddo, you started with the snarky bullshit and I followed your lead. Or did you notice that I have had discussions with others on these boards without insult? So it isn't that I can't state my point without being inflammatory, it is that because you chose to take that route, I will defend myself against your insults. Don't be upset just because it is only you. Learn from it and perhaps try not to be insulting in the future. Then people wouldn't come back with insults towards you.

I will continue to have my very valid, experienced, well formed opinion. And I will continue to laugh and be amused at your continued ignorance. Deal with it.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 11:39:32 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		To me this whole thing is not really bdsm and/or part of 'our' community. It seems to me that the people involved are just being very very misguided, maybe sick and maybe mean.

It is nice to think that a person can make a difference and make everybody healthy and happy, but the reality of that is so very very small

If this trio lives nextdoor, then you might be able to do something... talk to the skinny girl... scowl or shout at the stupid bloke... phone a health worker...
But they might just all tell you to keep your nose out of things that are none of your business...

It seems most likely that the bloke would let her be hospitalised if she becomes too weak to walk, then she will be force fed (another form of domination, by the medical profession this time) and maybe also forced to have therapy, but the chance that she goes straight back to her guy and her destructive behaviour as soon as she can walk again is very very likely.

People get caught red handed sometimes and get away with murder... i really do not see this case going to court and this bloke getting any punishment... but i am no expert.

Being way too skinny is not always because of this anorexia or bulimia disorder i think... in my case, i just could not be bothered with eating... at that time in my life i had better thing to do, also i was fairly poor and spent my money on what i considered 'nicer' things than food... after a while you need less and less food, you do not really feel the hunger anymore and eating a lot becomes impossible anyway.
i certainly was not creating a skinny body for myself and i never thought i was fat... i could actually see that i was too skinny but i did not think it was a problem.
A friend of mine at that time was a cook and he decided i should put on some weight, i ate his food and i became fuller, less stressed and happier...
i have seen the exact same behaviour about food in my brother, he was a bag of bones for way longer than i ever was though, fortunately he is finally doing good now since a year, he is in his 30's.

For many people having a meal is nothing but hassle, they do not value the taste of good food or the time with others to consume it, the preparing and cleaning up is just a lot of work... there are many many people with eating disorders... i actually think being a vegetarian is one of them aswell... so are most of the situations where people in the same family eat different foods at different times, i.e. children eating apart from the parents.

I think it would be best if this 'master' would be smart enough to do some reading up on how to do this food controlling in a 'healthy' sort of way, but if they are all really as dim as they sound in the op, then this is just a sad trainwreck.

< Message edited by ranja -- 6/20/2010 11:44:56 AM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 11:42:07 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		It might also be the case that Mist was being taken for a ride in a chat... that this girl she talked to is actually a fat slob, spinning a weird story for her entertainment and we are all part of a bit of cyber

< Message edited by ranja -- 6/20/2010 11:54:27 AM >

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 11:51:33 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

To me this whole thing is not really bdsm and/or part of 'our' community. It seems to me that the people involved are just being very very misguided, maybe sick and maybe mean.



THIS is the whole point of the post. Anything can be called a "kink," if someone so chooses. It doesn't mean that it is or that it is right.

While I completely agree that at that age, there are so many more fun things to do or spend money on, the mentally stable person still manages to eat without becoming anorexic.

Anorexia is not simply choosing not to eat. It also involves excessive exercise to burn off the little that is eaten and then some. Many bulimics are not "scary skinny" because bulimia alone doesn't involve the exercise portion. Often the two are seen in combination.

Whether or not the moron would be prosecuted depends on a variety of factors. While this woman is still alive, the main factor is her family, the medical community (since she has been hospitalized more than once already) and people who come in contact with her and know that he is the one pushing this lifestyle on her (by that I mean the anorexic lifestyle, not the BDSM lifestyle). Just like there is a division of the Health and Human Services department that protects against abuse of children, there is a division that helps protects against abuse of the elderly and disabled. This girl would fall under the "disabled" category.

Should the woman die as a result of complications of anorexia, the factors above come into play again as well as the local authorities. As it stands now, the medical authorities must surely not be given the truth because they have a legal obligation to step in, just as with a child, or an abused spouse.

This whole situation is beyond sad and sick. But it is the underlying attitude of far too many people that he should be permitted to do this because she consented that is more frightening. The reality is that someone who could consent to this would not be considered mentally competent by either medical or legal standards. Obviously this girl needs serious help, and sadly she hooked up with one of the worst kinds of predators.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 6/20/2010 12:05:12 PM >

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 140
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