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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:56:13 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2



And the trust that they believe their "rational thought" is correct. Rational thought is subjective, and certainly isn't scientific proof.


No, but rational thought leads to scientific proof, something that faith can never do.



But you need to have faith (trust, conviction type faith) in your "rational thought" to begin with. If you don't have faith in it, then what convinces you that it's "rational"?


Damn, I fucked up the quote boxes. Think I got it right now.




No, as this thread has stated many times over and over again, there is no need for "faith" in rational thought. I have proof of its validity every day, and its value has never been disproven. That hasnt the slightest thing to do with faith. There is only one part of my belief system that requires faith, and that is that I have faith that reality isnt an illusion. If it is then nothing has any meaning anyway, so having that faith does not undermine the rational basis for everything else.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:56:59 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Further thought. Because i was able to prove my point that i used a devils advocate form of argument, instead of the strawmanning you determined i was utilizing, we now have to push that aside? It no longer fits... so, according to you, its no longer important. Nice form of debate here, dc.


No pushing anything aside because the question was not complete.(See above).

the.dark.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

So - let's get this clear. devils advocate, strawmen, authors aside.


But these are your words. And you did push them aside.

Ok then, same clarity. strawmen/devils advocate/authors aside.

quote:

A) you say that atheists have faith.(regardless of the meaning of faith)
B) you say that atheists do not have faith.(regardless the meaning of faith).
A or B

the.dark.


~sighs

Lets do try this one more time, then, if you cannot understand or comprehend, then its your problem.

Atheists do have faith. They do not possess religious faith. As i have stated before.

Understand?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:59:01 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

there is no need for "faith" in rational thought. I have proof of its validity every day, and its value has never been disproven. That hasnt the slightest thing to do with faith. There is only one part of my belief system that requires faith, and that is that I have faith that reality isnt an illusion. If it is then nothing has any meaning anyway, so having that faith does not undermine the rational basis for everything else.


I find this very funny. I have heard of Archaeology wars in which archaeologists hid bones and artifacts to prove point and preserve their "belief" that they had it right... I had a professor that called them the "Clovis First Mafia"

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:00:08 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Of course love exists. Its a chemical process that evolved to protect infants and ensure survival of the species. Nothing more, nothing less.


You know, you are just no fun at all.



Au contraire...it is recognizing love for what it is and harnessing it that makes D/s so much fun!

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:00:17 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
For me personally, I find the distinction to be pedantic. I am only concerned with choosing one over the other if the choice brings clarity to the argument. I'm not sure it does....unless I'm debating Firm.


I told DC earlier in the thread that us brits are known as pedantic
It's all cool - I just think I can see why the term 'non belief' gets jumped on as a belief and I don't know if disbelief is thought of in the same way.  Like being straight - a person isn't 'non straight' if they aren't... they are gay or bi or panseuxal or 'whatever'.  Maybe it's just a good idea that people accept using the term atheist rather than reverting to 'non believer'? (Kinda rhetorical but meh...)

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:02:50 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Of course love exists. Its a chemical process that evolved to protect infants and ensure survival of the species. Nothing more, nothing less.


You know, you are just no fun at all.



He is slightly off base. He speaks of nothing about the love of family, the love of friends, the love for pets, ect ect ect.

Love isnt that easily boxed.



Of course it is. A chemical process, once enabled, isnt restricted to one narrow application of man/woman/procreation. Done properly we create that process over and over again in the practice of D/s. That doesnt make it any less clearly defined. All of your other "loves" harness the same reaction.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:04:20 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

So - let's get this clear.  devils advocate, strawmen, authors aside.

A)You do label whole groups of individuals as something.
or
B)You don't label whole groups of individuals as anything.
A or B.

the.dark.


I am very careful not to lable a whole group of people as anything.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Atheists do have faith. They do not possess religious faith. As i have stated before.

Understand?


Yes, thank you.

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:06:28 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Those same reactions can be hardnessed by fear, hatred.. any emotion. How can it be proven that its love? How do you prove love exists?

And i can give you chilling stories of mothers who have rejected their newborns. So utilizing the argument that love is to promote the species and protect infants is a fallacy. There are many who state they are incapable of love, and just as many who do not hold those feelings in a D/s relationship.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:08:57 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Ok. what do ya say everyone comes to a nice mutual agreement in 5 more pages.

Deal?

No. We are just about to debate the meaning of the word "conviction." We still have yet to agree on the definitions of "religion" and "dogma" (trust me, that's coming) and we never resolved from the last 30 page thread whether faith and blind faith were in fact the same things. This one is a 50 pager, easy.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:09:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

So - let's get this clear.  devils advocate, strawmen, authors aside.

A)You do label whole groups of individuals as something.
or
B)You don't label whole groups of individuals as anything.
A or B.

the.dark.


I am very careful not to lable a whole group of people as anything.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Atheists do have faith. They do not possess religious faith. As i have stated before.

Understand?


Yes, thank you.

the.dark.


Faith can actually work in correlation with reasoning. A novel idea you may want to read up on.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:12:07 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those same reactions can be hardnessed by fear, hatred.. any emotion. How can it be proven that its love? How do you prove love exists?

And i can give you chilling stories of mothers who have rejected their newborns. So utilizing the argument that love is to promote the species and protect infants is a fallacy. There are many who state they are incapable of love, and just as many who do not hold those feelings in a D/s relationship.

He is correct although I'm sure he knows it's much more complex than chemical reactions..A number of things go into and aid or hinder the chemicals produced..but don't doubt it...Of course you are correct as well and the simple explanation is that their process in those cases are different than the "norm"

Most of us don't think of love in a scientific way because it's much more fantastic to romance it.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:12:16 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



Faith can actually work in correlation with reasoning. A novel idea you may want to read up on.


ORLY. Why dont you cite some examples.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:13:26 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those same reactions can be hardnessed by fear, hatred.. any emotion. How can it be proven that its love? How do you prove love exists?

And i can give you chilling stories of mothers who have rejected their newborns. So utilizing the argument that love is to promote the species and protect infants is a fallacy. There are many who state they are incapable of love, and just as many who do not hold those feelings in a D/s relationship.


Why is it a fallacy because you can bring up a hand full of exceptions to the rule?

It's big time news when a mother kills her kids. It definitely is the exception to the rule and does not in the least negate what he wrote.

You are really not very good at this.



< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/21/2010 4:14:31 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:17:09 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Faith can actually work in correlation with reasoning. A novel idea you may want to read up on.


Meh.  I'm fine with that thanks tazzy.

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:21:09 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

As much as we object to the classification that religious people are inferior.

I don't know anyone who has made this claim. Another strawman, tazz.

Most atheists will assert that belief systems based on faith are in fact inferior to those based on reason. (I don't believe this is always true, but that is an argument for the theists to make, not the atheists.)

You said earlier that you have yet to see evidence of the reasoned methods atheists are referring to. We are talking the scientific method here. Most atheists employ it to come to the conclusion that deities don't exist.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:21:22 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Ok. what do ya say everyone comes to a nice mutual agreement in 5 more pages.

Deal?

No. We are just about to debate the meaning of the word "conviction." We still have yet to agree on the definitions of "religion" and "dogma" (trust me, that's coming) and we never resolved from the last 30 page thread whether faith and blind faith were in fact the same things. This one is a 50 pager, easy.


and now we have people like Julia talking about their belief in taoism.

Taoism?...I once had a tshirt that had more religious convictions than a taoist.


I just want Firm and treasure to admit that they utilize two sets of criteria in forming their ideology. One for God and the other more "thought out" or reasonable (hate to use the term "reason" and firm and treasure in the same sentence)approach when it comes to determining the rest of their condescending beliefs.....I kill me!!!....I'm here all week!!!

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:22:51 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Most atheists will assert that belief systems based on faith are in fact inferior to those based on reason. (I don't believe this is always true, but that is an argument for the theists to make, not the atheists.)


Whose yardstick are you using?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:24:26 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Taoism?...I once had a tshirt that had more religious convictions than a taoist.


Hey, I was even going to get the Yin/Yang symbol tatted on me, what are you convicted to do?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:25:12 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Beliefs held "by faith" may be seen existing in a number of relationships to rationality:

Faith as underlying rationality: In this view, all human knowledge and reason is seen as dependent on faith: faith in our senses, faith in our reason, faith in our memories, and faith in the accounts of events we receive from others. Accordingly, faith is seen as essential to and inseparable from rationality. According to René Descartes, rationality is built first upon the realization of the absolute truth "I think therefore I am", which requires no faith. All other rationalizations are built outward from this realization, and are subject to falsification at any time with the arrival of new evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality

Rational faith, then, is an important component of rational thinking. In fact, Fromm believed that creative thinking begins with a “rational vision,” a vision that results from study, reflective thinking, and observation.

In other words, rational faith is rooted in one’s own experiences, thoughts, observations, and judgments. Irrational faith, on the other hand, is the acceptance of something as true only because an authority or the majority say it is.

The rational believer must have faith in his core being. He must have trust in himself — know that the person he really is will not change with changing circumstances. If we lose faith in who we are, we become dependent on others and change in ways to gain their approval. Not a good thing.

http://blog.robertringer.com/2009/08/14/rational-vs-irrational-faith/

The precise way in which reason differs from emotion, faith, and tradition is controversial, because all three are considered to be both potentially rational, and in potential conflict with reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 439
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 4:26:25 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

As much as we object to the classification that religious people are inferior.

I don't know anyone who has made this claim. Another strawman, tazz.

Most atheists will assert that belief systems based on faith are in fact inferior to those based on reason. (I don't believe this is always true, but that is an argument for the theists to make, not the atheists.)

You said earlier that you have yet to see evidence of the reasoned methods atheists are referring to. We are talking the scientific method here. Most atheists employ it to come to the conclusion that deities don't exist.


DC Woody did in this very thread, brainia... or did you not read the whole thread? And there was someone who posted before him.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 440
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