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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 11:36:35 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

As for the rest... eh... i made the earnest attempt and was stone walled.


Not to pile on when you're fighting so many different people, but I for one am still at a complete loss to understand what it was you were attempting to do. I've tried to figure it out so I could understand what was happening in the thread, but I'm no closer to it than I was 20 pages ago. I have no idea what any of this was about.



She was trying to get a self professed atheist to capitulate to her worldview and failed catastrophically.




See, that's not how I saw it at all. Funny how we each have our own interpretations.

I saw her as trying to get about 4 or 5 very intelligent people to concede that faith has more than one definition. And Treasure's use of it in the original thread was indeed legitimate in the context in which she used it. But no one was going to concede to that, because once we establish that even an atheist's belief is based on the confidence (faith) that their belief is founded on what they perceive to be "valid evidence", then we'd have to agree that a deist.theist confidence (faith) in their belief is likewise founded on what they view as "valid evidence".


And they were never going to let that happen, because it would have put them into a corner that they couldn't argue themselves out of. Because then they'd have to explain how their reasons for their beliefs are valid, while someone else's reasons for their beliefs are not. And that's not something you can win.

But if they could keep slinging around words like "disingenuous attempt", "fucking idiot", "dictionary pussy" et al, all while continuing to pretend that they couldn't fathom the difference between faith, blind faith, and religious faith, then they could keep their position that their beliefs are based on "reasonable evidence" and a theist's beliefs are based on Blind faith.

Period. Dot.







< Message edited by marie2 -- 6/23/2010 11:41:08 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:05:55 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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Status: offline 		Dear gawd Marie I think I love you.  Thank you for saying what I was thinking and could not put the words together to express.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:11:10 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

She was trying to get a self professed atheist to capitulate to her worldview and failed catastrophically.



The Germans lost nigh on a couple of million men at Stalingrad. Now that was a catastrophe.....and they capitulated after promosing much. Not sure a mere conversation.......regardless of its tales of the unexpected.....could ever descend into a catastrophe or capitulation.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:12:43 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
I saw her as trying to get about 4 or 5 very intelligent people to concede that faith has more than one definition. And Treasure's use of it in the original thread was indeed legitimate in the context in which she used it. But no one was going to concede to that, because once we establish that even an atheist's belief is based on the confidence (faith) that their belief is founded on what they perceive to be "valid evidence", then we'd have to agree that a deist.theist confidence (faith) in their belief is likewise founded on what they view as "valid evidence".

Valid evidence such as what? I'm not sure that a book claiming to be the word of God counts, and if you can find a case of divine intervention anywhere in the historical record, I'd love for you to point it out.
Besides, doesn't proof deny faith? If there was any kind of evidence for God's (or Gods') existence, then there'd be nothing left to believe in, and the leap of faith is the most important thing in most religious systems.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:13:48 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

She was trying to get a self professed atheist to capitulate to her worldview and failed catastrophically.



The Germans lost nigh on a couple of million men at Stalingrad. Now that was a catastrophe.....and they capitulated after promosing much. Not sure a mere conversation.......regardless of its tales of the unexpected.....could ever descend into a catastrophe or capitulation.

Yeah? Tell Alexandria that. Does the burning of a library on religious grounds ring any bells?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:27:38 PM   
brainiacsub


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Status: offline 		Marie...c'mon, you can't be serious...I'm not trying to keep this thread going, but you know my brain is wired to explode when I read something like this.

The atheists felt that debating the definition of faith was an equivocation fallacy perpetrated to insinuate that belief in the absence of evidence (faith) is as valid as simply choosing not to believe. Tazzy and Treasure were trying to demonstrate that both positions are equally valid (or equally flawed). You would not agree if we were talking about pink unicorns or spaghetti monsters. Ironically, neither would the theists.

If I said I have faith/belief in spaghetti monsters and Tazzy says she doesn't have faith/belief in their existance, do you really think we would be debating the meaning of "faith" or "belief" for 40 pages to settle this argument? No, we would be discussing what constitutes evidence and reason, as it should be.

ETA, I hope you included me among the 4 or 5 very intelligent people. My self esteem depends on it.

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/23/2010 12:47:44 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:46:14 PM   
marie2


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quote:

Besides, doesn't proof deny faith?


Not in all contexts of the word. Sorry, but I'm not going down this road again.


As for your question about "valid evidence". I covered my thoughs on that pages ago. I'm not looking for it, or re-writing it. I don't mean to blow you off, but I've already expressed all of that here once.

quote:

I'm not sure that a book claiming to be the word of God counts, and if you can find a case of divine intervention anywhere in the historical record, I'd love for you to point it out.


If you think my post was an effort to support proof or evidence of a god, you missed my point by a long shot.


You don't need proof to have reason to believe.

To know something requires proof. To believe something does not.









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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:57:10 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

You don't need proof to have reason to believe.

Agree. But this is not what some of the theists in this thread were asserting.
quote:


To know something requires proof. To believe something does not.

Incomplete. One can have reasoned belief but still not know. This is different than faith, which is the opposite of reason (as in logic or critical thought).












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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:57:45 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Marie...c'mon, you can't be serious...I'm not trying to keep this thread going, but you know my brain is wired to explode when I read something like this.

The atheists felt that debating the definition of faith was an equivocation fallacy perpetrated to insinuate that belief in the absence of evidence (faith) is as valid as simply choosing not to believe. Tazzy and Treasure were trying to demonstrate that both positions are equally valid (or equally flawed). You would not agree if we were talking about pink unicorns or spaghetti monsters. Ironically, neither would the theists.

If I said I have faith/belief in spaghetti monsters and Tazzy says she doesn't have faith/belief in their existance, do you really think we would be debating the meaning of "faith" or "belief" for 40 pages to settle this argument? No, we would be discussing what constitutes evidence and reason, as it should be.

ETA, I hope you included me among the 4 or 5 very intelligent people. My self esteem depends on it.



Exactly....And there is no more proof of God then there is pink unicorns or spaghetti monsters....(accept for the poster where the little kid has dumped the spaghetti all over himself...Isn't that just adorable? I know!!!)

So quit being such a twat. If a doctor told you that shoving a golliwog up your snatch would make it tighter you would probably do some research before cramming said golliwog up your snatch...

What research have you done to validate God?

The whole principal of Christianity is rewarding those that have faith in the unknown by the promise of the afterlife. Why are people who are not willing to thrust a golliwog up their hole based upon a single suggestion so willing to deep throat the whole Christianity shit without a second thought?

It doesn't make sense.



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 12:59:42 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		All people of faith have to say is that I know it sounds fucking crazy, and I realize my faith is based upon no known credible evidence but it gives me comfort and peace to believe....What's the big deal or so hard about that?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/23/2010 1:00:34 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:02:24 PM   
brainiacsub


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Status: offline 		The delivery is a bit crude, but the logic is flawless.

4 out of 5 stars

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:04:36 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All people of faith have to say is that I know it sounds fucking crazy, and I realize my faith is based upon no known credible evidence but it gives me comfort and peace to believe....What's the big deal or so hard about that?


kills me to agree with him.....


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:06:44 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All people of faith have to say is that I know it sounds fucking crazy, and I realize my faith is based upon no known credible evidence but it gives me comfort and peace to believe....What's the big deal or so hard about that?


How about saying...

"I know I cannot prove nor disprove there is a higher power out there, but believing in something larger than myself gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer... because while science might answer 'what' questions and some of the 'why' questions, it does not have the ability to answer the most important questions that I have about the meaning of life"...


Much more appropriate

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:08:56 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All people of faith have to say is that I know it sounds fucking crazy, and I realize my faith is based upon no known credible evidence but it gives me comfort and peace to believe....What's the big deal or so hard about that?


How about saying...

"I know I cannot prove nor disprove there is a higher power out there, but believing in something larger than myself gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer... because while science might answer 'what' questions and some of the 'why' questions, it does not have the ability to answer the most important questions that I have about the meaning of life"...


Much more appropriate


There's how and then there's why....science is decent enough with the how.....but struggling with the why........

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:18:53 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

There's how and then there's why....science is decent enough with the how.....but struggling with the why........


One of the first anthropologists, Evans Pritchard (a Brit, btw) studied several cultures in Africa. He noted that the Azande people believed in witch craft, not because it explained "how" something happened, but it explained "why" it has happened. His example was a granary falling on someone sitting under it for shade. Granaries fell all the time from termite infestation, the Azande knew that granaries fell because of this, but knowing how it fell did not explain why it fell on a particular person. He wanted to demonstrate that people had these beliefs not because they were stupid, but because they were looking for meaning


This is why I want to do the work I want to do, I want to look for meaning in the world, because while the scientific method is useful, it doesn't get me where I want to go in knowing about the world within my particular academic discipline... it is also why I so staunchly support people of faith to be left alone to it... I would rather understand the meaning these beliefs give to their lives than dismiss the content of them

Make sense?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:21:03 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All people of faith have to say is that I know it sounds fucking crazy, and I realize my faith is based upon no known credible evidence but it gives me comfort and peace to believe....What's the big deal or so hard about that?


How about saying...

"I know I cannot prove nor disprove there is a higher power out there, but believing in something larger than myself gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer... because while science might answer 'what' questions and some of the 'why' questions, it does not have the ability to answer the most important questions that I have about the meaning of life"...


Much more appropriate
i think Domi did just fine.



Yeah...still hurts to admit that.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:22:37 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

There's how and then there's why....science is decent enough with the how.....but struggling with the why........


One of the first anthropologists, Evans Pritchard (a Brit, btw) studied several cultures in Africa. He noted that the Azande people believed in witch craft, not because it explained "how" something happened, but it explained "why" it has happened. His example was a granary falling on someone sitting under it for shade. Granaries fell all the time from termite infestation, the Azande knew that granaries fell because of this, but knowing how it fell did not explain why it fell on a particular person. He wanted to demonstrate that people had these beliefs not because they were stupid, but because they were looking for meaning


This is why I want to do the work I want to do, I want to look for meaning in the world, because while the scientific method is useful, it doesn't get me where I want to go in knowing about the world within my particular academic discipline... it is also why I so staunchly support people of faith to be left alone to it... I would rather understand the meaning these beliefs give to their lives than dismiss the content of them

Make sense?


The book of Job tries to deal with this very thing (to cite the obvious). 

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:22:49 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All people of faith have to say is that I know it sounds fucking crazy, and I realize my faith is based upon no known credible evidence but it gives me comfort and peace to believe....What's the big deal or so hard about that?


How about saying...

"I know I cannot prove nor disprove there is a higher power out there, but believing in something larger than myself gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer... because while science might answer 'what' questions and some of the 'why' questions, it does not have the ability to answer the most important questions that I have about the meaning of life"...


Much more appropriate
i think Domi did just fine.



Yeah...still hurts to admit that.



As someone who studies meanings, I don't agree.... I am not looking at this as someone with faith... because I don't share your faith... I am looking at this from the point of view of someone who wants to understand what your faith means to you...



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:24:00 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All people of faith have to say is that I know it sounds fucking crazy, and I realize my faith is based upon no known credible evidence but it gives me comfort and peace to believe....What's the big deal or so hard about that?


How about saying...

"I know I cannot prove nor disprove there is a higher power out there, but believing in something larger than myself gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer... because while science might answer 'what' questions and some of the 'why' questions, it does not have the ability to answer the most important questions that I have about the meaning of life"...


Much more appropriate
i think Domi did just fine.



Yeah...still hurts to admit that.



As someone who studies meanings, I don't agree.... I am not looking at this as someone with faith... because I don't share your faith... I am looking at this from the point of view of someone who wants to understand what your faith means to you...


great...all this pain for nothing...


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 1:24:29 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

The book of Job tries to deal with this very thing (to cite the obvious). 


Yes it does.....

Why do bad things happen to good people... the devil did it, or the witch did it, or the evil eye did it....

Just one of the many things that religion offers to those who have it.....

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