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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:26:53 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

But I use mayonnaise as the definition of being tangible. Throughout history people have looked for God. Not one reasonable or verifiable sighting. Not one.

It doesn't exist. Why would anyone ever believe God does exist? Just because someone writes about it doesn't give it credence.

Where is shangrila? what haven't you searched for it?

Why do you use a different set of criteria in accepting God than you do the planet Gor or shangrila?


A planet and a city are also tangible objects able to be perceived by the human eye.

I believe in God because I believe in the inherent order of the universe and reality - that existence has laws that govern it, and I can't say whether God is an individual creator entity or simply an expression of that higher order, I can only work within my human parameters.

Imagine you're an ant, in an ant farm. You have your world, and someone says, this can't have just happened, all this sand and plastic, there has to be someone who put it together. And someone argues, no, it's impossible, I've never seen someone put it together, and besides, when I was upset and praying for my wife not to die, nobody stepped in and saved her - if there were a creator of all this, I'd be able to prove that I'm able to interact with them. And sometimes the world shakes and all my tunnels collapse, if someone truly wanted to create a world for us to live in, why would these things happen?

It's totally not a perfect analogy because I don't know whether an ant in an ant farm would be able to perceive a human or not, but you get my point. If ants can't prove there's a human, why would you expect humans to know how to prove there's a god?

It's faith, I accept that it's faith on my part. I have personally felt what I believe to be religious experiences. It might all be delusion, but I don't believe that. You're free to believe I'm delusional all you want, but if you get snarky about it I'll get snarky back.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:28:03 PM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline 		Kirk Cameron?

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:30:50 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Kirk Cameron?


?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:38:50 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine


In my gut I have to say I agree.  But philosophically the position is assailable, moderation is a virtue.




All things in moderation, especially moderation.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:40:58 PM   
Plasticine


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quote:

All things in moderation, especially moderation.


I used to say that too... then I got sober.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 8:08:31 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

You misunderstand, this isn't fence-sitting agnosticism.  This is an observation that if there is a possibility of gods, it is so minute as to not be worth worrying about.



So now we come to the crux of the matter.. if a person says there is no evidence one way or another they are a "fence sitter"... to harbor no opinion on the matter is to give it less credence than atheists do... you are convicted to the depths of your little wee human pee brain that you are so damn smart you have it all figured out... well dude, if they prove you scientifically wrong next year, won't you have egg all over your model-like face....

Me, I prefer to take the more rational approach, and not look like a flat lander when the smarter people figure their shit out... just me, etc

_____________________________

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 8:11:35 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Kirk Cameron?


?


he was the "Left Behind" actor.,..... you know, fundie Kirk Cameron... otherwise known as Douche Cameron

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 8:33:23 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

You misunderstand, this isn't fence-sitting agnosticism.  This is an observation that if there is a possibility of gods, it is so minute as to not be worth worrying about.



So now we come to the crux of the matter.. if a person says there is no evidence one way or another they are a "fence sitter"... to harbor no opinion on the matter is to give it less credence than atheists do... you are convicted to the depths of your little wee human pee brain that you are so damn smart you have it all figured out... well dude, if they prove you scientifically wrong next year, won't you have egg all over your model-like face....

Me, I prefer to take the more rational approach, and not look like a flat lander when the smarter people figure their shit out... just me, etc
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say, but a lot might depend on your definition of god - there is no evidence of omnipotent, immortal, anthropomorphic bearded gentlemen anywhere in the universe, and the existence of same defies the laws of physics "but god created physics", etc., right?

Nah, highly unlikely, probability approaching zero unlikely.

It's scary to think we might be on our own, have to depend on each other - god is usually an excuse for paranoia. Sooner or later, they all reach the conclusion that the only way to convince you is to kill you.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 8:44:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

You misunderstand, this isn't fence-sitting agnosticism.  This is an observation that if there is a possibility of gods, it is so minute as to not be worth worrying about.



So now we come to the crux of the matter.. if a person says there is no evidence one way or another they are a "fence sitter"... to harbor no opinion on the matter is to give it less credence than atheists do... you are convicted to the depths of your little wee human pee brain that you are so damn smart you have it all figured out... well dude, if they prove you scientifically wrong next year, won't you have egg all over your model-like face....

Me, I prefer to take the more rational approach, and not look like a flat lander when the smarter people figure their shit out... just me, etc
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say, but a lot might depend on your definition of god - there is no evidence of omnipotent, immortal, anthropomorphic bearded gentlemen anywhere in the universe, and the existence of same defies the laws of physics "but god created physics", etc., right?

Nah, highly unlikely, probability approaching zero unlikely.

It's scary to think we might be on our own, have to depend on each other - god is usually an excuse for paranoia. Sooner or later, they all reach the conclusion that the only way to convince you is to kill you.




I consider myself to be agnostic, I have a very loose definition of "god" or life after death, etc etc etc. I like to think I have a spiritual connection to something larger than myself. I have no religious affiliation, although I have said on this very thread Taoism is the closest I have come to one....

He is insulting people who do not want to commit to a belief or nonbelief as "fence sitters", why? He is at war obviously.... He is sooooo convinced he is calling out those with no belief one way or another in a ""god" because he has a "you are with me or against me" view of reality..... I don't embrace any one twue wayism... it goes against my grain, which is why I would make a great Taoist

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 9:25:37 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		The beautiful gorgeous truth of it all is none of you really know for sure there is no God and what that would mean anyway. You may be so steeped in the conviction there is no God but that does not mean there is not one.

The arguments about what Christians believe is of no interest to me, that is old school in a bad way and needs serious refurbishing. There is and has been a zillion judgments, misunderstandings and misperceptions as to what has passed as God in the past and for the largest part of it is untrue, uninformed and wrong information.

The fact that I cant prove every element of my life does not mean I have faith where others do not, it simply means I cant prove everything in my life. It also doesnt mean that they are not every bit as real as the Hellman's in my fridge. I have had experiences that are mine and mean what they mean to me, and someone barking that unicorns and spaghetti monsters dont exist so either does experiences I probably couldnt even articulate very well is not very persuading to me and I like that. I like my own personal experiences that mean what they mean to me and I dont need to try and prove them to anyone, especially someone who is already shut down in these areas.

There is more than mental capacity to hang onto. Some of you are smart and spray smart words out of your keyboards that are interesting and whatever but it does not come across as the whole picture to me.

What is in your heart is super important. It is not what you say but how you feel when you say it.

It is nice there is a whole bleacher with al the atheists in pretty harmony. That is kind of nice.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 9:29:45 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		If I were gay, you would totally be my type....lol

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 10:47:22 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Let me also say that I have no desire to deny any one else their right to be. I dont love some things more than others but I feel it is not my place to deny someone else's right to live life exactly as they would like to. Go atheists!

Oh and okay no one I was referring to was actually barking. I can be so mean.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 3:08:20 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
But religion needs it's believers to jump through hoops and is somewhat exclusionary as to who gets the pass and who doesn't. I never have liked that. My God would never do such a thing.


Just a quick off-topic question.... Where did you get your pronoun pass and are there any left?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 4:06:27 AM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I consider myself to be agnostic, I have a very loose definition of "god" or life after death, etc etc etc. I like to think I have a spiritual connection to something larger than myself. I have no religious affiliation, although I have said on this very thread Taoism is the closest I have come to one....

He is insulting people who do not want to commit to a belief or nonbelief as "fence sitters", why? He is at war obviously.... He is sooooo convinced he is calling out those with no belief one way or another in a ""god" because he has a "you are with me or against me" view of reality..... I don't embrace any one twue wayism... it goes against my grain, which is why I would make a great Taoist


I was not deprecating other forms of agnosticism, I was merely describing atheist philosophy in its proper context.  I am at peace, not war.  As I said, I'd be fine if the religious mainstream would just accept atheism as an equally silly philosophy. They are the ones at war.

< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/24/2010 4:07:05 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 5:54:44 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		The vast majority of religious threads started on these boards are started by those claiming to be atheists or agnostic. Where is this war you speak of?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 7:33:58 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The vast majority of religious threads started on these boards are started by those claiming to be atheists or agnostic. Where is this war you speak of?


It's raging inside your brain....Unfortunately the thoughts that make no sense seemed to have gained the upper hand and are forcing you to post them.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 7:38:49 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
I saw her as trying to get about 4 or 5 very intelligent people to concede that faith has more than one definition.

Perhaps what you didn't see was Vincent talk about different meanings of the word faith and a number of us agreeing with him within the first few pages of the thread and the massive equivocation fallacy spanning some 20 pages that occured from there. Perhaps you also didn't notice that the source Tazzy quoted WITHOUT CITING had a statement that what she was quoting was ambiguous and should be changed. So yeah I wasn't really interested in leaving the topic to play that game again.


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
But no one was going to concede to that, because once we establish that even an atheist's belief is based on the confidence (faith) that their belief is founded on what they perceive to be "valid evidence", then we'd have to agree that a deist.theist confidence (faith) in their belief is likewise founded on what they view as "valid evidence".

I completely agree that there are some gnostic theists who claim knowledge of the existence of a deity based on logic and evidence without resorting to faith as a justification for their position. But it's a pretty unpopular position and their is a reason for that.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 8:07:57 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Does that include for the possibility that Gods do exist?

I'd love to meet a higher being but that doesn't make the hallucinations of a desert hobo any more valid.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 8:12:26 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The vast majority of religious threads started on these boards are started by those claiming to be atheists or agnostic. Where is this war you speak of?
California for one, you've heard of Prop 8?

Here, try this.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 8:14:59 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
Just a quick off-topic question.... Where did you get your pronoun pass and are there any left?

I was busy hiking.

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Profile   Post #: 880
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