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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 5:47:10 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

Atheism has no doctrine, so how can one who finds the position flawed in premise possibly be in a position to describe what an atheist thinks?


Are you trying to argue that atheism is not the idea that there is no god?

Words have to have some sort of meaning, you know.



I see Atheism as the convcition that there is no god

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 5:51:58 PM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		Unfortunately the dictionary is a reflection of the culture that uses those words and English speaking culture has been very largely faith based so some of this is inextricable.

I would suggest that an "atheist" is a person who observes that it is highly improbable that Gods do exist. 

As Dawkins says, "everyone is an atheist about Zeus, we just go one god farther."

Whats so hard about letting it be and admitting its equally nuts?  Oh right... that would undermine faith.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 5:52:53 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

I would suggest that an "atheist" is a person who observes that it is highly improbable that Gods do exist.


Does that include for the possibility that Gods do exist?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 5:54:00 PM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		In proper terms no one is an atheist. We are just very serious agnostics.  We don't know and neither does anyone else.

ED: OK some people may claim to be actual atheists but they hold an untenable position.

< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/23/2010 5:56:04 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 5:56:00 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

In proper terms no one is an atheist. We are just very serious agnostics.  We don't know and neither does anyone else.


It was a yes or no question - does your definition of atheism include the possibility that Gods might exist?

If a person calls themselves "atheist" but they really mean "agnostic" their own poor communicative skills are the reason they are "strawmanned" with genuine atheistic beliefs ascribed to them.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 5:57:33 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
ED: OK some people may claim to be actual atheists but they hold an untenable position.


I agree.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 5:57:44 PM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		You misunderstand, this isn't fence-sitting agnosticism.  This is an observation that if there is a possibility of gods, it is so minute as to not be worth worrying about.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:01:22 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		I know there is no God....Just like I know there is no jar of mayonnaise in my fridge. It's the very absence that makes it so.

There is no difference between the lack of a jar of mayonnaise and the lack of God. They are both not there. The difference is I can go buy some mayonnaise. I can't go buy some God, though countless have tried, because it does not exist.

I cannot buy God no more than I can visit Gor.

Why is that so difficult for you?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:01:57 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
You misunderstand, this isn't fence-sitting agnosticism.  This is an observation that if there is a possibility of gods, it is so minute as to not be worth worrying about.


I have no problem with that, while I do believe in gods, I don't believe with 100% certainty. I have faith that I'm right.

To me, it does take a leap of faith to have certainty, on both sides.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:02:52 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		I would rather have God than mayonnaise.

But you already knew that.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:03:33 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
You misunderstand, this isn't fence-sitting agnosticism.  This is an observation that if there is a possibility of gods, it is so minute as to not be worth worrying about.


I have no problem with that, while I do believe in gods, I don't believe with 100% certainty. I have faith that I'm right.

To me, it does take a leap of faith to have certainty, on both sides.


No you are mistaken. I am certain that there is no God. There is no faith involved. It is not a possibility.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:03:54 PM   
Plasticine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
You misunderstand, this isn't fence-sitting agnosticism.  This is an observation that if there is a possibility of gods, it is so minute as to not be worth worrying about.


I have no problem with that, while I do believe in gods, I don't believe with 100% certainty. I have faith that I'm right.

To me, it does take a leap of faith to have certainty, on both sides.


Right but I am claiming no certainty, merely a probability.

Ed. nvm, I got you.


< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/23/2010 6:05:03 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:03:59 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I know there is no God....Just like I know there is no jar of mayonnaise in my fridge. It's the very absence that makes it so.

There is no difference between the lack of a jar of mayonnaise and the lack of God. They are both not there. The difference is I can go buy some mayonnaise. I can't go buy some God, though countless have tried, because it does not exist.

I cannot buy God no more than I can visit Gor.

Why is that so difficult for you?


The difference is that you're able to conduct an experiment in a controlled situation - the parameters are set, there is a clear definition of "mayonnaise," the location in which it could exist is finite, and the mayonaisse in question is acknowledged to be perceivable to the human eye.

If you were to extrapolate and say "Since I can't find mayonaisse in my fridge, mayonaisse must not exist" then we'd have a problem.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:05:57 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Right but I am claiming no certainty, merely a probability.



And you'll get no argument from me.

IMO if the gods can't convince a person to believe, what chance do I stand in convincing them

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:06:35 PM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		You are walking in to a trap with DomiGuy there.  Watch your step.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:08:55 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

You are walking in to a trap with DomiGuy there.  Watch your step.


Nah so long as I stay calm and rational with him it'll trip up his tourettes and he'll end up cursing me out and not replying to me anymore.

Trust me I have experience in this field.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:10:43 PM   
Plasticine


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quote:

No you are mistaken. I am certain that there is no God. There is no faith involved. It is not a possibility.


Ok man YOU are a masochist.  Why even make the claim?  It cannot be supported and you know it.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:11:59 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I know there is no God....Just like I know there is no jar of mayonnaise in my fridge. It's the very absence that makes it so.

There is no difference between the lack of a jar of mayonnaise and the lack of God. They are both not there. The difference is I can go buy some mayonnaise. I can't go buy some God, though countless have tried, because it does not exist.

I cannot buy God no more than I can visit Gor.

Why is that so difficult for you?


But I use mayonnaise as the definition of being tangible. Throughout history people have looked for God. Not one reasonable or verifiable sighting. Not one.

It doesn't exist. Why would anyone ever believe God does exist? Just because someone writes about it doesn't give it credence.

Where is shangrila? what haven't you searched for it?

Why do you use a different set of criteria in accepting God than you do the planet Gor or shangrila?



The difference is that you're able to conduct an experiment in a controlled situation - the parameters are set, there is a clear definition of "mayonnaise," the location in which it could exist is finite, and the mayonaisse in question is acknowledged to be perceivable to the human eye.

If you were to extrapolate and say "Since I can't find mayonaisse in my fridge, mayonaisse must not exist" then we'd have a problem.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:19:34 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

You are walking in to a trap with DomiGuy there.  Watch your step.



There is no need to prove it. there is no evidence and all the dogma is senseless.

It takes no faith to disbelieve.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/23/2010 6:23:07 PM   
Plasticine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

You are walking in to a trap with DomiGuy there.  Watch your step.



There is no need to prove it. there is no evidence and all the dogma is senseless.

It takes no faith to disbelieve.


In my gut I have to say I agree.  But philosophically the position is assailable, moderation is a virtue.

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