RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm

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daddysprop247 -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 10:25:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: that is harsh truth that many will deny, but it is truth nonetheless. Jefff's comments about "strength requiring strength" bothered me so much because it is such a popular lifestyle myth that it takes a big bad "dom" to tame the wild, bratty, take-no-guff "sub." when the reality is that a strong Dominant man is not going to entertain such a "sub" at all. and it's been my observation over the years, on and offline, that many of those who are willing to entertain such subs do so because they are insecure in their dominance, they do not fully "own" it, so they need the constant affirmation which comes from the submission of a bratty-type. moreover, they are horrified at the level of responsibility and control required to actually dominate someone, as opposed to simply catering to the whims and desires of someone else. it is also not a sign of strength or dominance, imo, to desire to engage in battles of will and authority, or to feel the need to prove oneself to someone so they will bend to you. Popular lifestyle myth? According to whom? A strong Dominant will entertain whatever he desires to entertain. I know many who enjoy a willfull girl, if for nothing else than to tame her... as someone else pointed out... "The Taming of the Shrew" Your comment before this mentioned you rarely venture out into the public scene, yet you speak like you are an authority. Makes me wonder. Why is it discussion like this end up in one group of "submissives" dragging another group of "submissives" into the mudhole? Do you need to do that to make yourself feel better? In all honesty, the only "correct" answer for all this is really simple.... A man will have what he desires. What he doesnt desire, he will get rid of. If he allows such behavior, he must enjoy it, on some or any level. After all, isnt that one of the purposes of being submissive to a man (or woman) is to give them pleasure? it's a popular lifestyle myth, if one even casually observes the online community such as this one. we have had countless threads here on collarme not merely praising bratty types, but proclaiming that such behavior is a sign of strength, that dominants who appreciate such behavior are somehow stronger than other dominants, and of course that there is no value in submission which comes "easy." these ideas are not expressed as opinions or (more accurately) as preferences, but as irrefutable myths. it gets old. it gets tiring. and unfortunately these same ideas are reflected in the public scene. we rarely venture out for this reason...just no common ground with the overwhelming majority. however we do socialize with many select people privately, who are more like-minded. this is not about trying to drag another "group" of submissives into the mudhole. people are who they are, and if their partners appreciate and enjoy who they are, then great for them. but i do not feel that things should be called what they are not, and more importantly i do not feel that submissiveness should be mistaken for weakness, nor combativeness for strength.

tazzygirl -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 10:39:38 AM)
quote: it's a popular lifestyle myth, if one even casually observes the online community such as this one. we have had countless threads here on collarme not merely praising bratty types, but proclaiming that such behavior is a sign of strength, that dominants who appreciate such behavior are somehow stronger than other dominants, and of course that there is no value in submission which comes "easy." these ideas are not expressed as opinions or (more accurately) as preferences, but as irrefutable myths. it gets old. it gets tiring. and unfortunately these same ideas are reflected in the public scene. I find strength is peaceful contemplation. I find strength is a man who is asleep. I find strength in the quite observation of someone weighing a decision. I find strength in the darndest of places. I would never assume one man is stronger than another based upon whom he owns. Nor can i condemn a man because his preferences do not make sense to me. Maybe.. just maybe... if more people realized that preferences is what its all about, we could actually stop tossing up the red herrings of who is more submissive than someone else and actually just enjoy the differences we all bring to the table. There are men who enjoy the well behaved submissive. Some may say thats because they cannot tolerate bratty behavior. Others may insist that its because they cant handle the strong will of a woman. I dont agree with either supposition. Some men prefer the quite submissive. Some men prefer the brat. I would hazard a guess that most men prefer a mix of both. Its the mix that may be the difference between the two groups. Note, i said most,, not all.

FetishRose -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 11:50:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ranja it seems to me that us brats do like a bit of bashing at times from brat to brat: BASH! [:D]

Elisabella -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 3:44:07 PM)
-FR- I don't consider myself a "brat" (to me that word just means a nasty little child) but I definitely try my husband's patience sometimes. The beauty in it, to me, is that he's able to completely dominate me. In general, D/s interaction is a combination of both - the D orders the s onto her knees but she wants to be there anyway - to me I don't see that as "dominating" someone, I see it as two people agreeing on what to do. For me, I don't want to be on my knees. I'm not meaning to insult anyone but for me, personally, I really can't take that sort of submission seriously, it makes me feel kind of silly. So if he wants me on my knees and I resist, if I end up on my knees anyway, he's dominated me in the most primal sense of the word. I'm honestly just not wired to be proactively submissive, and as far as the OP goes, I find more beauty in fighting and resisting, because the rawness makes it more real to me, than I do in imagining myself serving unconditionally. To me beauty is derived from a person being true to their nature, whatever it is, not from everyone acting in a certain pretty way.

laurell3 -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 5:16:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealSub58 quote: f the submissive is of a bratty type, or has attention-seeking issues or is prone to disobedience, the dominant has to exhibit whatever tools at their disposal to achieve this goal. If this goal cannot be achieved, then either the dominant was not strong enough, or the submissive is possibly untrainable or doesn't really wish to submit. Certainly a little of both could be the case. I REALLY do appreciate this comment. There are times when I have issues here at home that I allow to creep into my mood and Sir can hear it in my voice. I now think it might be an unconcious attention/sympathy seeking on my part. But I am not bratty or disrespectful. If I am even the tiniest bit disrespectfull, I hear it in his voice. This is actually the way I was hoping my OP discussion would proceed. I attempted to discontinue the derailment, but I didn't succeed....... (For what it's worth, the distractions I've been experiencing over the last two hours while trying to respond have caused me to believe that I don't like this response but don't know how to answer any other way at the moment. Obviously I'm a bad dom.) ........ tis why I so appreciated the self centric comment in regards to brattiness. I had to take a break and re-read my original post. It did come across a bit holier than thou and that was not my tone while writing it and I never meant to insinuate the huge leap of assumption that a bratty sub is not a good sub. I wanted to understand brattiness, smart ass behaviour (even self announcement of such in profile with no clarification) or why one uses sarcasm, esp in these forums ( responding to or listening to sarcasm in person is far different for me than reading it or being perceived as sarcastic), on people they have never met and only think they know who the writer is by their on perceived opinions. My way is more cynical, based on lack of trust, rather than sarcastic. (I hope I have not pissed off or alienated 99% of you all again) I very much appreciated the strength to strength commentaries. I do not regret using "thick headed" (tis just a way of saying something culturally) altho a better word to have used, as I see now, could have been "strong." I really did not appreciate the character bashing as no one on CM except for 2 or 3 (who don't even bother with forums) has ever met me. I do envy the fact that many here have built up relationships and finally met. I hope the continued commentaries are are on topic. BTW, my screen name was given to me. Are you kidding me? It's another "everyone is mean to me" thread? I thought it actually had content. The reason you get sarcasm is because of the manner in which you post. Generally, of course we don't know each other, words are all we have. If you don't choose yours carefully you will get sarcasm and responses to those words. Turn it around, stop taking it personally. You don't know them either. Why would you chose a response of perceived oppression? As reality would have it, we are all human, not roles. The response of well she ain't submissive enough or true is old, boring, ridiculous and fantasybased. Men that say that are coming here thinking they can find someone that isn't human that will be easy and never have real life issues. They wrap their frustration over having to actually work in d/s fantasy about submission. Women use that fantasy to say I'm better, I'm more submissive, I'm all that, which is also boring, old and ridiculous. D/s isn't special. We're all still human. We don't become "brats" for being human.

ncprincess -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 5:25:36 PM)
I'm self confident and assertive myself. This is where what people perceive the meaning of "smartass" to be differs. To me I'm not being a smartass. I'm just being called one because I'm confident enough with my own decisions not to bow down to what everyone else wants me to do. The main time I'm called a smartass is by someone other than my Master that is trying to issue commands thinking I should follow their rules because they are a "Dom".

ncprincess -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 5:38:37 PM)
Jefff's comments about "strength requiring strength" bothered me so much because it is such a popular lifestyle myth that it takes a big bad "dom" to tame the wild, bratty, take-no-guff "sub." when the reality is that a strong Dominant man is not going to entertain such a "sub" at all. and it's been my observation over the years, on and offline, that many of those who are willing to entertain such subs do so because they are insecure in their dominance, they do not fully "own" it, so they need the constant affirmation which comes from the submission of a bratty-type. moreover, they are horrified at the level of responsibility and control required to actually dominate someone, as opposed to simply catering to the whims and desires of someone else. it is also not a sign of strength or dominance, imo, to desire to engage in battles of will and authority, or to feel the need to prove oneself to someone so they will bend to you. [/quote] So, to your reasoning my Master isn't really a "strong Dominant man" because he likes my spirit? Not everyone is wired the same. I could flip this around and say a trully "strong Dominant man" would become bored within a month a owning a quiet mild mannered submissive. There isn't a correct way of living the lives we lead. Noone should be judging or dismissing what is/isn't a Dominant/submissive. Each of us are different people and what works for you may not work for me.

Jeffff -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 5:40:46 PM)
I know who I am. I know what I am. It is going to take a shitload more than a woman with a brain and the will to use it to change that.

WestBaySlave -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 5:54:06 PM)
I'm sarcastic all the time, but it's rarely aimed at anyone in particular, I just have a very cynical outlook on life and a lot of things amuse me. I'm not very sentimental, I prefer directness to pleasantries, and don't share a lot of the values popular in western culture - this can put me at odds with people at times, but I do my best to be civil with people of every stripe. That being said, as a sub, I'm pretty much a doormat if I've formed a strong connection to a man. I'm very passive and submissive in temperament, and easy-going to the point that I actually have annoyed some dominants who want a little more resistance to their assertiveness. Men who don't like resistance, by contrast, tend to enjoy that there's no "fight". Everyone has different needs... I'm not sure, does this mixture of personality traits make me a brat?

SirsJewel -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 5:56:38 PM)
i have to agree with most,you got your panties in a wad simply because some had different opinions and not one post was intentianlly cruel,your less than total subness surfaced. i agree with your line of thought,there are some who brag i'm a bad girl thing outrightly when not in socially accepted times of convo,like look at me! i have seen some pretty nasty unslave like behaviour on here as well,but that is life,and you judge the character of a person by how they handle strife much closer than the way they project themselves trying to put the good foot forward. i dislike anyone who gets off on mean-spiritness that hurts another for "sport". Joking,wise-cracking and being the ocasional smart ass can be done tastefully and you can have fun at it, many however need to buy a personality online and Think a bit before typing that there is someone with feelings on the other end of thier screen. What i dont get is the unowned, who are looking for the "right one" but act so wrong it isnt funny except to U/us the owned who Know that just wont work,,,,,lol~ jewels

SirsJewel -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 5:57:48 PM)
Nope makes ya a fun guy i think~ jewels

Jeffff -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 7:00:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirsJewel ! i have seen some pretty nasty unslave like behaviour on here as well Your kidding right?... you have seen unslave like behavior, on the internet?... I am stunned no SHOCKED....... That anyone would take what is written here by folks who do not belong to other folks as a sign of how submissive they may or may not be.

SirsJewel -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/21/2010 7:14:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff quote: ORIGINAL: SirsJewel ! i have seen some pretty nasty unslave like behaviour on here as well Your kidding right?... you have seen unslave like behavior, on the internet?... I am stunned no SHOCKED....... That anyone would take what is written here by folks who do not belong to other folks as a sign of how submissive they may or may not be. Know how to read? i meant exactly what i said, a slave acting very un-slavelike in general manner,but i can certainly see me a slave being highly annoyed at your lack of a better time then to comment on a quote on such a small part of the comment. i suppose many of us have Masters who like a strong submissive with backbone ~ jewels

ranja -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/22/2010 1:52:46 AM)
I'll take it on the chin Rose, and throw you one back... take that!!! Also i like to point out that some of us poor subs have Dominants who might at times be.... well.... dare i say it.... twits (don't tell Him i said that) As i might be a nagging cow at times or an uppity bitch, so He can be a total moron aswell... sometimes by me being a brat and so teasing out a bit of aggression in Him so He might chase me, grab me or spank me, it clears the air like a thunderstorm does when the weather is oppressive.

RealSub58 -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/22/2010 6:22:54 AM)
quote: "That many doms are scared shitless of any ongoing responsibility so they encourage subs to act up as an excuse to reaffirm the dynamic." that is harsh truth that many will deny, but it is truth nonetheless. Jefff's comments about "strength requiring strength" bothered me so much because it is such a popular lifestyle myth that it takes a big bad "dom" to tame the wild, bratty, take-no-guff "sub." when the reality is that a strong Dominant man is not going to entertain such a "sub" at all. and it's been my observation over the years, on and offline, that many of those who are willing to entertain such subs do so because they are insecure in their dominance, they do not fully "own" it, so they need the constant affirmation which comes from the submission of a bratty-type. moreover, they are horrified at the level of responsibility and control required to actually dominate someone, as opposed to simply catering to the whims and desires of someone else. it is also not a sign of strength or dominance, imo, to desire to engage in battles of will and authority, or to feel the need to prove oneself to someone so they will bend to you. quote: it's a popular lifestyle myth, if one even casually observes the online community such as this one. we have had countless threads here on collarme not merely praising bratty types, but proclaiming that such behavior is a sign of strength, that dominants who appreciate such behavior are somehow stronger than other dominants, and of course that there is no value in submission which comes "easy." these ideas are not expressed as opinions or (more accurately) as preferences, but as irrefutable myths. it gets old. it gets tiring. and unfortunately these same ideas are reflected in the public scene. daddysprop, I really appreciate your insight/opinion/perspective in to this discussion. it does reaffirm some of the perspective I sort of had with the OP. I do know that Sir would bump me in a heart beat if he found me acting out deliberately after 3 years.

RealSub58 -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/22/2010 6:25:38 AM)
quote: I would hazard a guess that most men prefer a mix of both. Its the mix that may be the difference between the two groups. Note, i said most,, not all. most people are a mix..we are complex human souls. and of course, there will always be a reason we act or react the way we do. there will always be a reason for any of our behaviours and a motive.

RealSub58 -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/22/2010 6:27:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff I know who I am. I know what I am. It is going to take a shitload more than a woman with a brain and the will to use it to change that. now this I like to read...sounds much like someone else I hold dear

RealSub58 -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/22/2010 6:36:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave I'm sarcastic all the time, but it's rarely aimed at anyone in particular, I just have a very cynical outlook on life and a lot of things amuse me. I'm not very sentimental, I prefer directness to pleasantries, and don't share a lot of the values popular in western culture - this can put me at odds with people at times, but I do my best to be civil with people of every stripe. That being said, as a sub, I'm pretty much a doormat if I've formed a strong connection to a man. I'm very passive and submissive in temperament, and easy-going to the point that I actually have annoyed some dominants who want a little more resistance to their assertiveness. Men who don't like resistance, by contrast, tend to enjoy that there's no "fight". Everyone has different needs... I'm not sure, does this mixture of personality traits make me a brat? wbs, simply stated, no. what you wrote does not sound bratty to me (unless I mis~understand your words) in a way you write like you might be describing a complex human being who knows their faults and is working on them yet firmly knows who they are. yesterday I returned an email, respectful with no pleasantries, and I was given the thumbs down for what he considered (from my rendering of his definition) a "mature sub." the written word can so many times be mis~understood. Tis why I prefer person to person interaction in r/t.

RealSub58 -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/22/2010 6:43:57 AM)
quote: i dislike anyone who gets off on mean-spiritness that hurts another for "sport". If I do not know a person, in person, then I tend to take sarcasm this way and I am learning, even after reading forums for years, that taking it personally is a mistake. Perception and knowing the person is key for me. quote: What i dont get is the unowned, who are looking for the "right one" but act so wrong it isnt funny except to U/us the owned who Know that just wont work ...if you are refering to me being owned or not, I am owned, so the statement is moot in my opinion. [;)]

Jeffff -> RE: the beauty of brattiness and sarcasm (6/22/2010 6:45:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirsJewel quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff quote: ORIGINAL: SirsJewel ! i have seen some pretty nasty unslave like behaviour on here as well Your kidding right?... you have seen unslave like behavior, on the internet?... I am stunned no SHOCKED....... That anyone would take what is written here by folks who do not belong to other folks as a sign of how submissive they may or may not be. Know how to read? i meant exactly what i said, a slave acting very un-slavelike in general manner,but i can certainly see me a slave being highly annoyed at your lack of a better time then to comment on a quote on such a small part of the comment. i suppose many of us have Masters who like a strong submissive with backbone ~ jewels I don't question your back bone. I question your right to decide what is "unslave like" behavior from people you don't know or own. By your own definition, a person could say your reply to me was, unslave like.

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