Did/do you consent (Full Version)

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leadership527 -> Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:23:15 PM)

In line with my command to peonforher, I thought I'd get some slashey-speak going on in my title *chuckles*

Rather than derail the whole "newbie sub" thread, I thought I'd pull this into it's own thread since it's a topic which has been very interesting to me recently.
This is a simple question. If you are in a relationship that involves a D/s dynamic, do you believe that you ever consented? Please try to avoid the whole "consent/non-consent" thing. I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? Do you now? Why or why not?

For Carol and I, this is a bit muddy since we started vanilla. I believe Carol chose me as a mate. She did so for whatever reasons seemed good and appropriate to her (I'm personally assuming it was my lightning intellect and stunning good looks). Beyond that, however, it is her nature to be "the perfect mate" for whoever it is that she's attached to. Inescapably, when it became clear that I wanted a slave, then slave she became.... no choice or consent involved. It is certainly true that given sufficient provocation (the "Jeff becomes a dumbass" clause in our non-existent contract) she would choose to not simply stop being my slave, but divorce me. But that'd take a LOT of provocation at this point. But what she cannot choose to be is other than she is... the perfect mate of whoever it is she's mated to. All of which calls into question the sacred cow of "between consenting adults" or "safe, sane, and consensual".

So what about you? Any of you subs/slaves wanna dig deep and tell me how you see this issue?



DarlingSavage -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:26:23 PM)

Obviously, she chose to hang out, thereby giving her consent.  She didn't have to stay.  



DesFIP -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:29:22 PM)

I'm a little confused. Since presumably you didn't abduct her off the streets and so on, she must have agreed to meet you, to date you, to date you again and so on. Isn't that consent?

If you're asking if my brain could have overruled my feelings about us, then yes. I bottomed for him before I submitted. I held myself back until I was sure he was a good guy and one I would be safe being emotionally vulnerable to. I waited until I saw him in action enough to trust that he really was the man I needed.

And if you traded Carol to someone else today, I doubt she would happily turn herself into his perfect mate unless he was her perfect mate as well.



juliaoceania -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:34:51 PM)

quote:

f you are in a relationship that involves a D/s dynamic, do you believe that you ever consented? Please try to avoid the whole "consent/non-consent" thing. I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? Do you now? Why or why not?


This comes down to agency, so we have it or not?

Question for you, Jeff, do you feel you consented to being a dominant?

I consent to the relationship. I am myself in the relationship. The labels as to who and what I am in the context of the relationship mean little to me because no two relationships are the same. I am different with every man I have ever loved.... I do not need the label anymore, it has no real meaning for me.





littlewonder -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:40:09 PM)

I consented once.

I consented to be in a relationship with him knowing full well that from that point on anything he wants he gets whether I like it or not.

I have the choice to stay or leave.

It's that simple.



DaddysInkedSlut -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:43:04 PM)

Although I am emotionally attached to EDQ2 being with him wasn't soley an emotional choice. We played casually before we commited to one another. Now, there are no boundaries between us. Now, there isn't much we wouldn't do for one another and and he sees my total submission and I feel his control like I hadn't before. We didn't let our walls down totally until we felt safe to do so, until we trust each others intentions and motives.

I may not always give my verbal conscent but if I dont stop it I am conscenting.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:46:23 PM)

yes, i definitely consented. He asked me very clearly, would i be his property? He reiterated to me exactly what that would entail...the fact that there would be no turning back, that i must always accept his will, that he would be the center and at times the whole of my universe. without any hesitation, i said "yes." mentally and emotionally, i had not fully grasped what i had just consented to. but on some strange instinctive level, i just knew it was what i had to do. even though before the moment he asked me that question i had never once had the inclination, curiosity or desire to be with this man, much less BELONG to this man. 



leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 4:53:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage:
Obviously, she chose to hang out, thereby giving her consent. She didn't have to stay.

I don't know. By all accounts I'm a pretty bright guy and that's not so obvious to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP:
And if you traded Carol to someone else today, I doubt she would happily turn herself into his perfect mate unless he was her perfect mate as well.

No, actually, she would. She's pretty savvy about her mate selection so I doubt she'd choose poorly. But once chosen, for better or worse, she would. Hell, Carol does this for random strangers on the street to some extent. As I've said before, Carol is generally submissive to the world at large.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Question for you, Jeff, do you feel you consented to being a dominant?

Like Carol I never consented to being dominant... that is just who I am. But I absolutely made a choice to go M/s. I think neither Carol or I could ever hope to be anything other than D/s in some stripe or another. I think that with each other, that inevitably results in a D/s relationship... even long before we ever knew about these concepts. But taking it as far as we have is a choice and it was my choice.

I think this is the nature of my rub with "consent". I think that for some people who are perhaps more evenly balanced in their dominant/submissive personality traits, then a lot more choice is available. But if for whatever reasons you are less evenly balanced, then the amount of choice you have is constrained accordingly.



juliaoceania -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:01:56 PM)

quote:

I think that for some people who are perhaps more evenly balanced in their dominant/submissive personality traits, then a lot more choice is available.


I think different people bring out certain traits we already possess. In other words I might be more submissive with one man than another. It does not mean I would be less satisfied with either relationship, it would be that one brought out something that the other didn't. Since I do not see these traits as being positive or negative, I do not put a value judgment on it.




TheLadyIsADomme -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:05:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I think this is the nature of my rub with "consent". I think that for some people who are perhaps more evenly balanced in their dominant/submissive personality traits, then a lot more choice is available. But if for whatever reasons you are less evenly balanced, then the amount of choice you have is constrained accordingly.


Of course, one could argue the opposite as well. If you take someone for whom their dominance or submission is so ingrained within their personality that there really is no choice about who or what they are, then you can't really say they "consented" any more than you can say that I consent to be right handed vs. left handed. (Have you ever tried writing with your non-dominant hand? LOL.)

So a question I would pose is this: is there a difference between "consent" and "choice", in this context, and if so, what is it?



leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:10:58 PM)

Actually, that IS my argument ... well.. not argument exactly... but my current thinking about Carol and I. I think saying that Carol consented to be my slave is a lot like saying she consented to being right-handed.

EDITED TO ADD
Consent and choice are not identical. But choice is a necessary prerequisite to consent in my mind. If there is some valid choice and a person chooses A over B, then I think that one reasonably can say they consented to A.



juliaoceania -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:17:57 PM)

quote:

Actually, that IS my argument ... well.. not argument exactly... but my current thinking about Carol and I. I think saying that Carol consented to be my slave is a lot like saying she consented to being right-handed.


So you think that she would be slave-like with any man she was involved with? Do you think that it is possible, just maybe, that it is not only a natural predisposition to certain personality traits, but those around us who encourage them or discourage them that has a certain impact also?

If you were suddenly gone from Carol's life, like lets say you died or something.... do you think she would have to find a new master, or could she manage to find happiness in a relationship without that? How would she or you even know unless put in that situation?

People change, grow, evolve.... if life has taught me anything it is that change is certain... and to be embraced



leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:19:08 PM)

As I ponder this further, I'm wondering if this situation is mostly an artifact of us starting vanilla. One might consider it as "bait and switch". I think it'd be more clearly true that she consented had we met as dom/sub. I'd like to thank those that have contributed to this thread so far... in a fuzzy sort of way, I think I'm maybe understanding this better although it may take me a while to process this all fully... god knows I've been thinking about it for 2 or more months now already.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
So you think that she would be slave-like with any man she was involved with?

I think Carol would try her best to be whatever it was that the man she was involved with wanted. An interesting side question in my head goes something like this...

Lets suppose that what I wanted was a perfectly vanilla even-even relationship. So then Carol would adapt to that. But in the end, that is STILL submitting to my desire so is that still "slave-like"??

by the way, I'm perfectly willing to accept the fact that I'm over-thinking this. Honestly, the only reason this even comes up is because when I started thinking these thoughts, I had to accept more responsibility for what it is that we had become. In my mind, I couldn't hide behind the "but she consented" argument. Whatever it is that I'm turning her into, it is me doing it and I need to bear the responsibility for that.



TheLadyIsADomme -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:20:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Actually, that IS my argument ... well.. not argument exactly... but my current thinking about Carol and I. I think saying that Carol consented to be my slave is a lot like saying she consented to being right-handed.


Glad I could be of assistance! [;)]

quote:


EDITED TO ADD
Consent and choice are not identical. But choice is a necessary prerequisite to consent in my mind. If there is some valid choice and a person chooses A over B, then I think that one reasonably can say they consented to A.


Now, I disagree with this. Even using the (I admit it's a bit lame) example of right handedness, I am right-handed, but if I had the choice, I would rather be left-handed, just because it is more unusual, more unexpected, etc. But my handwriting sucks left-handed, and legible writing is important to me, so I didn't really "choose", as much as being stuck with it.

I'm not sure if I have beaten this horse to death and now am not making sense. LOL.



juliaoceania -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:31:06 PM)

quote:

Lets suppose that what I wanted was a perfectly vanilla even-even relationship. So then Carol would adapt to that. But in the end, that is STILL submitting to my desire so is that still "slave-like"??


By that criteria I suppose I could be considered "slave like", and I really do not see myself that way....

I am the type of person, if I love a man, I will move heaven and earth to please him. Sometimes the men I have been involved with moved the bar constantly as to what would please them, but I tried.... perhaps too hard... to do what was wanted of me.

It takes a lot for me to feel that way.... but once I do, that is how I feel about that man. That being said, I see that as a loyalty trait, and the trait of a good mate.



FlamingRedhead -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:44:39 PM)

I asked for my collar, so I believe I consented. I think I've always had a choice, although it might not feel like it. With Daddy, I'm very similar to Carol in that I want to be his perfect mate. What started out as a sexy game for him turned deadly serious for me once I fell in love. My "only" choice at this point is to do what he wants or leave. Actually, come to think of it, that's always been the only choice for me with him. I don't hesitate when he tells me to do something, but later, when I have time to think, I sometimes feel like I should've said something, maybe, so that I'm not such a doormat. I just can't seem to say no when things are happening. I invariably decide it wasn't *that* bad, and even if it was, I'd still do it again. He's made it clear that I'm free to go at any time, and he'll respect my decision. My consent lies in choosing to stay rather than going elsewhere, I guess, but after having him push a hard limit, I can't imagine that I'd leave unless he told me to.



Lucienne -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:54:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I think this is the nature of my rub with "consent". I think that for some people who are perhaps more evenly balanced in their dominant/submissive personality traits, then a lot more choice is available. But if for whatever reasons you are less evenly balanced, then the amount of choice you have is constrained accordingly.


I don't know if my example proves or disproves your point... but I was in a relationship for (I can't admit how long, we'll just leave it at 3+ years) awhile that wasn't particularly kinky sexually but had a strong D/s theme, even though I wouldn't have known to call it that at the time. In my experience, I resigned. I indulged. And I passive-aggressively fought back. To further muddy the waters, I'm tempted to say that I consented but I did not choose. This is the way he was. I was treated like a highly valued possession and I had numerous ways of coping with/denying that fact. But I loved him, so I did what I needed to do to get by. Separating myself from him was very difficult because I'd come to accept as normal a degree of observation, if not entirely control, and by that point I didn't need him to speak to know what his response was to his observation. He's still in my head. Less so, but more than he has any right to be. It's been two years. I never chose that. But I did consent. Does that make a damn bit of sense?



leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 5:57:09 PM)

@FlamingRedHead

What you're describing sounds like it'd be identical to what we experience had we started out self-aware about our D/s natures.



leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:02:46 PM)

*nods* It does make sense Lucienne. That sounds also a lot like how it went for Carol and I except for the fact that with Carol and I, it worked out. For us, the things you mention don't need "denying" and "coping" because they enhance our lives.

Thanks for your input. By the way, I'm not sure I have a point to prove or disprove here. I'm just seeking to understand Carol and Myself better by getting some perspective from other people.



laurell3 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:03:00 PM)

I'm a little confused as to what the actual question is. Do we consent to a relationship merely by being in it or is your question assuming a TPE relationship? ( I didn't read most of the other thread as I found it idiotic, so I might be missing something here).



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