RE: Did/do you consent

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leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:10:26 PM)
laughs It's more than a bit possible that it IS, in fact, idiotic laurell. I don't know that I have a clear question. I think I'm poking and prodding at how others view the questions of choice and consent. I'm not looking for any simplistic "yes/no" answer here. I'm looking for viewpoints... which I've gotten... which may help me to get a better perspective on Carol & I.

Lucienne -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:16:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 nods It does make sense Lucienne. That sounds also a lot like how it went for Carol and I except for the fact that with Carol and I, it worked out. For us, the things you mention don't need "denying" and "coping" because they enhance our lives. Thanks for your input. By the way, I'm not sure I have a point to prove or disprove here. I'm just seeking to understand Carol and Myself better by getting some perspective from other people. I hope my comment didn't sound judgmental, because it wasn't meant to be. I mean, I identify as a switch, and I'm somewhat unclear on the extent to which dominance or submission would challenge or fit me more. So my "prove/disprove" comment was more about not knowing where to situate myself on the "balance" continuum. It does remind me though, my long ago (9 months?) response to you in a slave thread that resulted in a conversation that earned me numerous antagonists was very much based on comparing you and your apparent attitude of care and concern with my ex's more unrefined and unhealthy attitudes. There's a reason you and Carol worked and me an my ex didn't, and I don't think it was a lack of trying on the part of the female. [;)]

laurell3 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:20:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 laughs It's more than a bit possible that it IS, in fact, idiotic laurell. I don't know that I have a clear question. I think I'm poking and prodding at how others view the questions of choice and consent. I'm not looking for any simplistic "yes/no" answer here. I'm looking for viewpoints... which I've gotten... which may help me to get a better perspective on Carol & I. Well I'm not saying it's idiotic Jeff (I was referring to the ana-mia thread that I believe you referenced in the OP, not this one sorry for the confusion), I just don't get what you are looking for viewpoints on. Do we consent to everything a person wants merely because we are in a relationship in general with them?

TheLadyIsADomme -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Do we consent to everything a person wants merely because we are in a relationship in general with them? Jeez, I hope that is not the case. That begs the proverbial question "would you jump off a cliff, yadda, yadda, yadda" For me, consent MUST be tempered by common sense, by a feeling that the rightness of the decision is sound, and an understanding by both parties that the issue being consented to is in furtherance of the stablility and depth of the relationship. Now, maybe I'm overthinking. LOL

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:35:35 PM)
Nope, it didn't sound judgmental at all Lucienne... I just didn't want people to think that I was somehow arguing some point here which I'm not. And insofar as the reasons why one relationship works and another does not... in my experience that is seldom either simple or one-sided. All I was referring to is that the same general themes you were referencing appear in our relationship... but because of it's more healthy nature, they end up being supportive rather than destructive.

Lucienne -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 6:53:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 And insofar as the reasons why one relationship works and another does not... in my experience that is seldom either simple or one-sided. All I was referring to is that the same general themes you were referencing appear in our relationship... but because of it's more healthy nature, they end up being supportive rather than destructive. I didn't make my statement in an attempt to score cyber points on my ex (that he would never be aware of, regardless). It was really more about giving you credit for your attitude which, in turn, results in more compliance. Just teasing out more the difference between choice and consent. A man who reliably presents as responsible and caring will induce more consent than one who does not, regardless of what the woman considered her "boundaries" prior to that moment. Yes, predisposition matters, but.... what really matters in the moment is trust, and that is still earned.

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:03:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Well I'm not saying it's idiotic Jeff (I was referring to the ana-mia thread that I believe you referenced in the OP, not this one sorry for the confusion), I just don't get what you are looking for viewpoints on. Do we consent to everything a person wants merely because we are in a relationship in general with them? laughs I know you weren't saying it's idiotic... but I think there's at least a midling chance that it is in fact idiotic and I'm just doing an angels on pinheads thing. Let me try to isolate the different threads going on in my head... By relationship orientation or by personality attribute? LuckyAlbatross gave me those distinctions. Some people are the strong, capable leaders of people by day and at night, within the context of their relationships, they are submissive. That's not Carol. She's submissive all day, every day. It's just how she views the world. She'd always prefer to be #2 and the idea of being #1 squicks her out. She'd rather bend to someone else's will than assert her own. I, on the other hand, am an arrogant asshole who fully expects to be in control of any situation I enter. I'm dominant all day, every day. Balanced Personalities Most people, from my observation, are much more balanced in their dominant and submissive traits than we are. No no, I'm not "dom to my core" nor do I shoot lightning bolts from my eyes. I'm a real, complex human being like everyone else. And, given sufficient provocation, Carol can in fact be induced to rear up and stamp her feet and say "fuck you". But by my observation out in the general world, she's seriously skewed towards the submissive side and I'm seriously an arrogant asshole. The Bait and Switch OK, so given how our two personalities are at their very core, it's easy to see how my will is going to trump hers... it happens without any real conscious effort. in fact, I have to go to great lengths to make sure it doesn't happen when it shouldn't. So perhaps before we were married and we were in intimate contact, one might reasonably say she had significant choice. But we married vanilla. Later, when I figured out I wanted a slave, it was kind of a day late and a dollar short for her to be choosing things. So given that whole setup, I find it a bit unreasonable to say that she "consented" to be my slave. Sure, given enough provocation, she'd say "fuck you". There'll be no cliff jumping here. But within the normal and expectable realm of day to day life... it's pretty fair to say "I wanted a slave and her very nature drove her to being that without any real opportunity to choose anything different. So.... back to the thread... what I'm trying to understand is how OTHER people view this whole choice and consent thing. quote: ORIGINAL: TheLadyIsADomme For me, consent MUST be tempered by common sense, by a feeling that the rightness of the decision is sound, and an understanding by both parties that the issue being consented to is in furtherance of the stablility and depth of the relationship. For us it isn't quite that way. Consider that what I have told her is that what I think is right actually IS right. Not only can I get her to obey, but I can get her to agree. Of course there are limits to that... as I noted above, there'll be no cliff jumping or limb chopping any time soon. But if I want Carol to think a certain way, feel a certain way, or view the world in a certain way, then I tell her and she makes it happen.... whether or not that way was significantly different than how she used to see things.

Jeffff -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:03:30 PM)
Jeff, a question like this is what I think of as a "Forum question". You and Carol appear to have a good life and a good relationship. Isn't that enough? If we read too much here I think we can start...... altering our views?, and not always in a good way. We start getting caught up in the minutia. I don't think that is a good thing. We nit pick and investigate shit that really needs no deep thought. Does it really matter if she consented or if she chose?... or you? Is this something that really needs to be examined?

juliaoceania -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:16:14 PM)
quote: OK, so given how our two personalities are at their very core, it's easy to see how my will is going to trump hers... it happens without any real conscious effort. in fact, I have to go to great lengths to make sure it doesn't happen when it shouldn't. So perhaps before we were married and we were in intimate contact, one might reasonably say she had significant choice. But we married vanilla. Later, when I figured out I wanted a slave, it was kind of a day late and a dollar short for her to be choosing things. This is just the thing, I am an assertive person today, but there was a time that being assertive was a foreign thing to me and it did not come easily. In fact, I have become more assertive as I explored my submissiveness.... strange but true. I do not know if I think there are dominant personalities and submissive ones... there are just some people that like giving control over to others or feel compelled to, and there are those who like controlling others or feel compelled to... One of the last conversations I had with Sinergy about these concepts dealt with finding parking in my neighborhood for him when he visits ( I live in a downtown location). He asked me to find parking for him, I was very ill for weeks and failed to do so. I told him this before he came over and he got mad because he was looking for parking, and he had to drive around for a while... he said "I feel as though if you were a submissive you would have found me parking"... I thought... "We are dating again, but I ain't your submissive"... seriously, it made me think "I don't wanna be your submissive"... I related this not to dog on Sinergy, but just to say, it really is complex... relationships change, people change, etc... there was a time that if he had said that to me it would have crushed me, but not so much anymore. We are still friends, btw, in fact I work for him... he pays me to do the things I used to do for free...like housework

Jeffff -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:19:51 PM)
I recently went to a ball game on the other side of town. Domi found me parking. Domi is twice the submissive you are.....:)

juliaoceania -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:26:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff I recently went to a ball game on the other side of town. Domi found me parking. Domi is twice the submissive you are.....:) hangs head dejectedly... I am almost as fake as you... with your deceptive photos and all

Jeffff -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:28:10 PM)
If it makes you feel better.. I didn't pet him and say "good boy" I am a shitty Dom.

sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:28:28 PM)
I consented to be his slave and make him happy. No one can make me do anything I don't want to do. I have a mind and chose who to consent to. I don't mindlessly give someone control over me. I want to make an informed decesion of who is in control of me. Not just anyone gets that privilage.

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:28:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff Is this something that really needs to be examined? In the end, we are happy. In that context, no it does not need to be examined. However, I frequently find useful insights into myself, Carol, or us from the postings of other people. In this case, this has been something I've been chewing over for a few months and I thought I'd see what others might say about it. I'm not looking for a yes/no, right/wrong answer here... it's more instructive just to see how other people attack the question. Often times, i learn more from the door someone comes out of than their actual answer. By the way, what DOES need to be examined here? Domi's stance on Jesus? Puleaze. At least to me, my question has meaning and the answers I'm getting so far are useful to me.

laurell3 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:29:29 PM)
Thanks for the clarification. When you choose to do nothing at all, you still are making a choice. When you introduced the concept, she could have said you are out of your damn mind. But she didn't and she stayed. Yes, I think she DID make a choice. I am the opposite, all day every day I am the arrogant asshole. Not only do I expect to be in control, I am. Most of the time I am the most dominant, knowlegable and followed person in the room amongst my collegues. However, none of that makes much difference when I trust someone to be my partner. I'm not sure I believe it is a matter of having someone's personality overpower me (I don't know carol and obviously you know better than me on that one), but it's a choice to follow. I follow not because he demands it, but because I want to and even with my assertive personality, I still suffer from the same thing you allude to with Carol. I am more likely to NOT say something when clearly I should with a partner. I'm not sure that has much to do with overall personality at all, but more to do with submission. I guess that is MY nature as well, but we still make the choice to follow regardless of our personality. I've seen you say several times that you think they are essentially the same thing. I don't agree with that, but then again I'm not like Carol. For me, surrendering is not my normal MO, I can do that because I trust and choose to with the right person. I think we all make a choice. Not to be submissive, that's ingrained, but to act on it and follow someone and trust them. Haha did I come close to being on topic? [;)]

Jeffff -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:38:49 PM)
Ok, I just found the OP a bit, unclear? But whatever makes you happy is good with me dude..:)

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:39:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Haha did I come close to being on topic? [;)] laughs Yup, you were definitely on topic and possibly even idiotic. grins More seriously, yes you were on topic and you added some useful insights I'll want to mull over. Thank you.

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 7:40:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff Ok, I just found the OP a bit, unclear? You know, pretty much always in my life I've found that if I can ask the question clearly then I already know the answer. It was a bit unclear... to say the least. But the various answers and questions both have helped me to see it a bit more clearly.

WestBaySlave -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/20/2010 9:41:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 In line with my command to peonforher, I thought I'd get some slashey-speak going on in my title chuckles Rather than derail the whole "newbie sub" thread, I thought I'd pull this into it's own thread since it's a topic which has been very interesting to me recently. This is a simple question. If you are in a relationship that involves a D/s dynamic, do you believe that you ever consented? Please try to avoid the whole "consent/non-consent" thing. I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? Do you now? Why or why not? For Carol and I, this is a bit muddy since we started vanilla. I believe Carol chose me as a mate. She did so for whatever reasons seemed good and appropriate to her (I'm personally assuming it was my lightning intellect and stunning good looks). Beyond that, however, it is her nature to be "the perfect mate" for whoever it is that she's attached to. Inescapably, when it became clear that I wanted a slave, then slave she became.... no choice or consent involved. It is certainly true that given sufficient provocation (the "Jeff becomes a dumbass" clause in our non-existent contract) she would choose to not simply stop being my slave, but divorce me. But that'd take a LOT of provocation at this point. But what she cannot choose to be is other than she is... the perfect mate of whoever it is she's mated to. All of which calls into question the sacred cow of "between consenting adults" or "safe, sane, and consensual". So what about you? Any of you subs/slaves wanna dig deep and tell me how you see this issue? In my experience, I'm consenting until something makes me do otherwise. There's a category of "things I will do for you" that's very small for strangers and very large for loved ones, and the same applies to serving a man. With a man I trust totally, my limits are very far off in the horizon, and it would take some extreme circumstances to reach the point where I cease to consent. So, that being said, with a compatible dominant consent isn't a constant dialog of "Will you [ fill in the blank ]?" and me answering "Yes". Rather, it's a blanket acceptance of his wishes and wants because I love and trust him. quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 But what she cannot choose to be is other than she is... I believe this is true for everyone, no matter who they are. Given that she's not a prisoner, theoretically she can leave anytime - would she? I'm guessing no. But then, you're just as free as her to end your relationship - would you? ( Assuming everything is fine between you two? ) I'm guessing no. But assuming the old "one or the other of you has a personality switch and turns into axe-murdering pedophile" ( or choose your own scenario ), probably both of you would end it faced with those circumstances. If you're satisfied with each other, consent doesn't come up because there's never a reason to say no to you, or at least not one that outweighs her desire to be with you and serve you. There are many ways of looking at a situation that seem contradictory but aren't. It's totally consensual because you're both free to go. It's totally non-consensual as you won't and can't choose to be otherwise as long as long as you meet each other's needs; prisoners of mutual satisfaction, if you will. She - and you - are as free or as bound by fate as you choose to view yourselves.

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 12:50:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave There are many ways of looking at a situation that seem contradictory but aren't. It's totally consensual because you're both free to go. It's totally non-consensual as you won't and can't choose to be otherwise as long as long as you meet each other's needs; prisoners of mutual satisfaction, if you will. She - and you - are as free or as bound by fate as you choose to view yourselves. Very insightful analysis WestBay... kind of makes me think I was right with the "idiotic" part above chuckles

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