RE: Did/do you consent

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lally2 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 3:40:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 In line with my command to peonforher, I thought I'd get some slashey-speak going on in my title chuckles Rather than derail the whole "newbie sub" thread, I thought I'd pull this into it's own thread since it's a topic which has been very interesting to me recently. This is a simple question. If you are in a relationship that involves a D/s dynamic, do you believe that you ever consented? Please try to avoid the whole "consent/non-consent" thing. I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? Do you now? Why or why not? For Carol and I, this is a bit muddy since we started vanilla. I believe Carol chose me as a mate. She did so for whatever reasons seemed good and appropriate to her (I'm personally assuming it was my lightning intellect and stunning good looks). Beyond that, however, it is her nature to be "the perfect mate" for whoever it is that she's attached to. Inescapably, when it became clear that I wanted a slave, then slave she became.... no choice or consent involved. It is certainly true that given sufficient provocation (the "Jeff becomes a dumbass" clause in our non-existent contract) she would choose to not simply stop being my slave, but divorce me. But that'd take a LOT of provocation at this point. But what she cannot choose to be is other than she is... the perfect mate of whoever it is she's mated to. All of which calls into question the sacred cow of "between consenting adults" or "safe, sane, and consensual". So what about you? Any of you subs/slaves wanna dig deep and tell me how you see this issue? i think that with you guys the trust and faith in youre relationship was already very strong, in a way, what you did was encorporate youre personality traits into Ds as an extension of what you already had between you. what ive identified with what i did in the past is that i consented according to what i had in my head, not necessarily what they had in theirs. youre deep knowledge of each other bypassed the consent issue in a way, it was moot. carol consented because she loves you, wishes for you to be fulfilled and it fulfilled that part of her that is inherently submissive anyway. for folks starting out there is a whole lot of trust thrust out there before ever actually knowing who or what youre trusting or entrusting themselves to. the desire to submit is very powerful for some and comes from an instinctive urge that at times is far stronger than common sense. is why i think so many Ds relationships fail. not enough time is spent compartmentalizing BDSM, Ds and basic compatibility. we say this is just like a vanilla relationship - that is true but only if you know what youre talking about - for someone new it makes no sense to them at all. none of the rules they applied to mainstream seem to apply here or are applied. in this new relationship of mine i have completely consented and i feel very strong about it. He has changed or is changing my entire concept of what Dominance is and because it fits what i instinctively knew but never found i feel like all the jigsaw pieces are finally making a picture i can relate to. in a funny way the connection i feel with my big Bear [:)] feels almost like its always been there because of what he says, feels, thinks, expresses himself my recognition of Him almost bypasses the need for consent - in a way its almost moot

RCdc -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 4:33:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 In line with my command to peonforher, I thought I'd get some slashey-speak going on in my title chuckles Rather than derail the whole "newbie sub" thread, I thought I'd pull this into it's own thread since it's a topic which has been very interesting to me recently. This is a simple question. If you are in a relationship that involves a D/s dynamic, do you believe that you ever consented? Please try to avoid the whole "consent/non-consent" thing. I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? Do you now? Why or why not? For Carol and I, this is a bit muddy since we started vanilla. I believe Carol chose me as a mate. She did so for whatever reasons seemed good and appropriate to her (I'm personally assuming it was my lightning intellect and stunning good looks). Beyond that, however, it is her nature to be "the perfect mate" for whoever it is that she's attached to. Inescapably, when it became clear that I wanted a slave, then slave she became.... no choice or consent involved. It is certainly true that given sufficient provocation (the "Jeff becomes a dumbass" clause in our non-existent contract) she would choose to not simply stop being my slave, but divorce me. But that'd take a LOT of provocation at this point. But what she cannot choose to be is other than she is... the perfect mate of whoever it is she's mated to. All of which calls into question the sacred cow of "between consenting adults" or "safe, sane, and consensual". So what about you? Any of you subs/slaves wanna dig deep and tell me how you see this issue? It's a not for us. It's not about consent but surrender. Consent is given over something you can control. Therefore, submission for his girlie seems a bit weird. I totally get that some people choose it, that's not the way it is for us. It's not like you wake up one morning and suddenly decide you are going to be submissive or dominant in our experience. Like Jeff mentioned, it's more like being left handed... or being a brunette. You cannot consent to something that is inevitable. the.dark.

lally2 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 5:04:41 AM)
yes, [:D], thank you, i prefer the word surrender. xx

mstrjx -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 5:23:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 The Bait and Switch OK, so given how our two personalities are at their very core, it's easy to see how my will is going to trump hers... it happens without any real conscious effort. in fact, I have to go to great lengths to make sure it doesn't happen when it shouldn't. So perhaps before we were married and we were in intimate contact, one might reasonably say she had significant choice. But we married vanilla. Later, when I figured out I wanted a slave, it was kind of a day late and a dollar short for her to be choosing things. So given that whole setup, I find it a bit unreasonable to say that she "consented" to be my slave. Sure, given enough provocation, she'd say "fuck you". There'll be no cliff jumping here. But within the normal and expectable realm of day to day life... it's pretty fair to say "I wanted a slave and her very nature drove her to being that without any real opportunity to choose anything different. I think part of the dilemma of this thread (if some people find there is one) is that we all come looking at this from the same perspective that brought us here. So, in a sense, the choir is being preached to. I've been AWOL for a few years from the boards so if I missed the story about how you (and your wife) were vanilla until one fateful day you woke up and said to yourself 'Hey, I want a slave. Oh, lookit, there might be one sleeping next to me', I really regret it. I bet that trumps most of the ways that we all found ourselves here, myself included. In my formative years I realized that I wanted 'this' type of relationship and that trying to date vanilla women to whom I might be attracted, then get them interested in wiitwd was probably fruitless. Better to coax someone who already had feelings of this sort into being a suitable partner/mate/etc. Still preaching to the choir. But taking your approach, whether you discovered it far after the fact or not, isn't this the equivalent of someone (like ourselves) knowing full well who it is that we are and need out of a relationship, going out and recruiting someone completely vanilla and then slowly (or not) introducing them to kink or obedience or what have you, but keep that person in the dark as far as knowing what they are subscribing to. No munches, no real overt BDSM trappings (playrooms and the like), no BDSM porn lying about. Making it seem as if the relationship is evolving into that direction when it was all part of the 'grand plan'. As I read this, I realize this seems duplicitous, lying. But anytime we (be it kinky people or vanilla, submissive, dominant or otherwise) meet someone we are attracted to, don't we already have SOME sort of agenda going on in our minds, that gets laid out as time goes on? I'm actually fascinated by the thought, and might lead me to rethink some things. Slings and arrows await. Jeff

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 8:49:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 i think that with you guys the trust and faith in youre relationship was already very strong, in a way, what you did was encorporate youre personality traits into Ds as an extension of what you already had between you. what ive identified with what i did in the past is that i consented according to what i had in my head, not necessarily what they had in theirs. youre deep knowledge of each other bypassed the consent issue in a way, it was moot. carol consented because she loves you, wishes for you to be fulfilled and it fulfilled that part of her that is inherently submissive anyway. This seems spot on Lally. Thank you for that. I think you're right. I think the whole "consent" issue with us bypassed because of the long years of trust between us already. This would explain why "consent", "surrender" and other related concepts don't seem to quite fit. As you said, they are moot. quote: in this new relationship of mine i have completely consented and i feel very strong about it. He has changed or is changing my entire concept of what Dominance is and because it fits what i instinctively knew but never found i feel like all the jigsaw pieces are finally making a picture i can relate to. in a funny way the connection i feel with my big Bear [:)] feels almost like its always been there because of what he says, feels, thinks, expresses himself my recognition of Him almost bypasses the need for consent - in a way its almost moot. I can so identify with this statement. In many ways, these things do in fact go back to day 1 with Carol & I. I think you and Bear are lucky folks. I'll go ahead and offer a piece of unsolicited advice (cause we all know how much unsolicited advice is appreciated chuckles). Go slow and don't mess it up.

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 8:56:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx I think part of the dilemma of this thread (if some people find there is one) is that we all come looking at this from the same perspective that brought us here. So, in a sense, the choir is being preached to. I've been AWOL for a few years from the boards so if I missed the story about how you (and your wife) were vanilla until one fateful day you woke up and said to yourself 'Hey, I want a slave. Oh, lookit, there might be one sleeping next to me', I really regret it. I bet that trumps most of the ways that we all found ourselves here, myself included. Trumps... hardly. And honestly not even all that unique. Carol and I have been to enough MAsT meeting to hear our story repeated quite a few times. Some couple who'd been together a long time bumbled into the idea of D/s or M/s somewhere and lightbulbs went off. quote: But taking your approach, whether you discovered it far after the fact or not, isn't this the equivalent of someone (like ourselves) knowing full well who it is that we are and need out of a relationship, going out and recruiting someone completely vanilla and then slowly (or not) introducing them to kink or obedience or what have you, but keep that person in the dark as far as knowing what they are subscribing to. No munches, no real overt BDSM trappings (playrooms and the like), no BDSM porn lying about. Making it seem as if the relationship is evolving into that direction when it was all part of the 'grand plan'. Actually, both Carol and I think this is probably how we'd find a new partner if one of us died. I don't think of it as "duplicitous". It's a pretty safe bet that anyone I fell in love with would have a submissive personality. I just see it as gently and patiently educating them about themselves. There's a difference between being "duplicitous" and being lovingly patient with someone. The only thing that would make this bad in my mind is if the agenda was more important than the actual individual... if the love were contingent on the agenda succeeding.

littleone35 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 8:59:01 AM)
I always had a choice and we chose each other. Do i still have a choice? I sure do, i could walk away, but why would i want to we are in love. Of course if i wanted to walk away, we would have to talk about why i wanted to walk, and see if it would be able to be fixed whatever the problem was. Now my friend levana(who is a slave) told me "the last free choice a slave/sub has is who she chooses to be her Master". No flames please just quoting what she said. Matt's littleone

daddysprop247 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 10:07:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 For us it isn't quite that way. Consider that what I have told her is that what I think is right actually IS right. Not only can I get her to obey, but I can get her to agree. Of course there are limits to that... as I noted above, there'll be no cliff jumping or limb chopping any time soon. But if I want Carol to think a certain way, feel a certain way, or view the world in a certain way, then I tell her and she makes it happen.... whether or not that way was significantly different than how she used to see things. this, more so than the punishment thing even, is i think the biggest difference between your relationship with Carol and mine with Daddy. He has no need for me to agree with any decision he has made. all he needs is for me to accept that he has made the decision, and his will is law. i do not attempt to feel or think the way he does. He wants my thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. to remain my own, as he realizes they all make up the complex picture of me, and he likes that picture. [:)] we have many differences between us...some quite drastic...and even our overall worldview is quite different (He's an active optimist "it will be okay because i will MAKE it okay"...and i'm a resigned pessimist). we even have completely opposing spiritual beliefs...He's Christian and i'm solidly agnostic. all of these differences can cause some degree of frustration at times, on both sides...but it also keeps us constantly learning from each other. it is my submission, obedience, surrender to his will which matters to him. and for me, i think it has been an invaluable lesson to learn that what i personally feel or think about something has no bearing on what direction this ship is steered. more than a lesson, it is a great comfort. that burden is entirely out of my hands, and i am free to think and feel as comes naturally. (haha! i said "sheep" instead of "ship!"[:D] wonder what naughty places my mind is...)

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 10:17:18 AM)
nods I think those things all wrap together daddysprop. Fundamentally, I am not a sadist and I love Carol. That means I don't want to cause her harm, physical or emotional. So, to use a specific example... Let's suppose that I want Carol to have sex with another man. In her default state, that'd be emotionally harmful to her and I have no interest in that. Yet, I do want absolute control. So the answer is, "change her default state so that it is not harmful, then give the command". That thought train is how I arrived at the need to be able to control her inside & out. I would be personally unwilling to wield the authority I desired to have without the internal control also. Carol, being Carol, submits to that just like any sort of external action. In a lot of ways, I think our views on D/s are virtually identical. But as is always true, the specific implementation of those views are... well.. highly specific chuckles. Don't get me wrong, I don't moderate all of Carol's thoughts and opinions. Like you, I value our diversity. The last thing I'd want to do is to try to turn her into a cookie-cutter clone of me. But when a viewpoint/thought/feeling/emotion of hers will get in the way of me issuing a command, then I change it.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 10:46:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 nods I think those things all wrap together daddysprop. Fundamentally, I am not a sadist and I love Carol. That means I don't want to cause her harm, physical or emotional. So, to use a specific example... Let's suppose that I want Carol to have sex with another man. In her default state, that'd be emotionally harmful to her and I have no interest in that. Yet, I do want absolute control. So the answer is, "change her default state so that it is not harmful, then give the command". That thought train is how I arrived at the need to be able to control her inside & out. I would be personally unwilling to wield the authority I desired to have without the internal control also. Carol, being Carol, submits to that just like any sort of external action. ah, i get it now! it is for the sake of her emotional and mental well-being that you adjust her inner workings. that is very sweet. [:)] but yes, Daddy is a bit different on that. He is not a sadist (tho i sometimes say he has sadistic tendencies lol), and he also loves me quite dearly. He understands that some of his needs and desires will be quite emotionally damaging and even mentally traumatic for me....and believe me, he hates this result! it causes him much angst at times. but rather than attempt to adjust my "default state," he has worked hard over the years to laser-point my focus on my place and purpose in life. my place being slave, my purpose being serving him. this is not meant to be a yummy feel-good sort of focus, but a matter-of-fact one. it is what i must never allow myself to forget or set aside, no matter the fact that we are madly in love. and this is not to say that i ever forget our love for each other...but in my mind i am first and foremost his property. and it is this prioritization of who i am, what i am, and why i am here...which gives me the strength to bear those things which are in fact harmful to me. the damage is still done, but it is utterly void of resentment. it is a sort of stoic acceptance, a drone-like state he is able to manage and pull me out of over time. this method probably works for me because it is almost the exact same way that i survived many years of childhood abuse. i accepted that it was the reality of my life, just the way it was, and perhaps even my purpose on earth. that enabled me to bear day after day, year after year of the most atrocious violations without losing my mind, and still be able to smile when i read a good book or saw a beautiful fawn in the woods.

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 10:51:43 AM)
I know, I really am sweet. Damn I deserve an award or something :) You know, maybe 2 years ago the words "drone-like state" probably would've sent me screaming with abuse flags popping up left & right in my head. I've come a long way since then... actually.... gotten more comfortable in this weird world of BDSM and so returned to my roots. The engineer in me should've always appreciated "that which works". And by the way, I didn't mean to imply your Daddy didn't love you... I know better.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 10:55:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 And by the way, I didn't mean to imply your Daddy didn't love you... I know better. no worries, i thought perhaps you thought he was a sadist, not that he didn't love me. [;)] oh and it's also worth pointing out that the way things must be prioritized in my mind is for my own sake, and not at all a reflection of the way they are prioritized in his.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 12:52:54 PM)
quote: If you are in a relationship that involves a D/s dynamic, do you believe that you ever consented? yes. because our relationship wasn't based on a "vanilla" pairing and because this slave was engaging a sadist, her consent to this alternatively styled relationship with a sadist at the helm, was the last thing she had a choice about...and it was/is very important to him that she understood, accepted and made the conscious choice to enter into a relationship that would be vastly different than a conventionally styled one. quote: I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? absolutely. this slave could have said no to the whole idea of entering into an M/s relationship with him...and by that, would have forgone ANY sort of intimate relationship with him because he wasn't looking for a girlfriend, wife or other conventionally styled relationship partner...he wanted a slave. perhaps we could have been friends, but since he doesn't do casual sex, we couldn't have been fuck-buddies. as far as consenting to submit under conventional rules...submission is this slave's default, knee-jerk reaction to the world and everything in it...so in the absence of an "owner" to submit to, it has been impressed upon her over the years that not everyone appreciates submission, some actively abhor it, so it is smarter/prudent for her to pretend to be something that she isn't until she finds out if it is safe/acceptable to be herself. for this slave, submitting to another is as natural/comfortable as breathing in and out...but finding folks who are safe to/ok with being submitted TO is a whole nother issue.

Aileen1968 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 1:01:56 PM)
We started out wanting only a relationship where we would get together, do all kinds of deviant things to each other (well actually, he would do all kinds of deviant things to me) and then we'd go our separate ways until we met again. It was meant to be purely kink. And then we started liking each other and that plan of keeping it kink got all kinds of fucked up. Liking snowballed into loving and before you knew it we were balls deep in trying to figure out how to take the idea of a power exchange to the furthest level we could. There was never any kind of negotiation. He said he wanted me. I said I wanted that. He said for that to happen I would have to do what he said from that moment on out. I agreed and here we are. So I guess on some level I technically did consent to this, but in all actuality, I had no ability to walk away from him. I was in love and to walk away from him would mean I would have spent the rest of my life always wondering and always looking over my shoulder, scanning the crowd looking for him.

NuevaVida -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/21/2010 10:23:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 This is a simple question. If you are in a relationship that involves a D/s dynamic, do you believe that you ever consented? Please try to avoid the whole "consent/non-consent" thing. I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? Do you now? Why or why not? Yes, I had a choice. I still have a choice. Every day I remain in a relationship of any kind, it is my choice to do so. I had a choice to engage in our preliminary conversations. I had a choice to continue forward with him when he made it clear he wanted to pursue a relationship with me. I had a choice to pull in my own reigns or let them loose, when I recognized my inclination to submit to him. We didn't have a conversation in which he asked "Will you consent to be my slave" and I said "Yes", in fact I don't think the word "consent" ever came up at all. But I did say I became his because I wanted to be his (as opposed to needing to), and in doing so, that was a choice. Realizing I would do whatever he wants me to do was a surprise to me. I had to really think about what that meant. It scared me a bit, to be honest. Because of some past experience which left me screwed up for awhile, there are areas of myself I still feel protective over. Because he knows the damage that was done, he is very careful and patient about this. I suppose you could say I have not yet made the choice to give up these areas of myself and mind, and he's OK with that for now. I've mentioned in other threads that we are moving forward very slowly, which we both feel is good for both of us. The transformation from basic conversation to where we are now has been very gradual and has evolved organically between us. It is still evolving. But having remained in unhealthy relationships before, my accountability there was that I chose to be there, even if I didn't realize it at the time. Therefore, it must be said that I am choosing this relationship, too.

ranja -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/22/2010 2:11:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne I don't know if my example proves or disproves your point... but I was in a relationship for (I can't admit how long, we'll just leave it at 3+ years) awhile that wasn't particularly kinky sexually but had a strong D/s theme, even though I wouldn't have known to call it that at the time. In my experience, I resigned. I indulged. And I passive-aggressively fought back. To further muddy the waters, I'm tempted to say that I consented but I did not choose. This is the way he was. I was treated like a highly valued possession and I had numerous ways of coping with/denying that fact. But I loved him, so I did what I needed to do to get by. Separating myself from him was very difficult because I'd come to accept as normal a degree of observation, if not entirely control, and by that point I didn't need him to speak to know what his response was to his observation. He's still in my head. Less so, but more than he has any right to be. It's been two years. I never chose that. But I did consent. Does that make a damn bit of sense? That sounds exactly like the situation i have been in... i felt it like i let myself be subjected to it... it was incredibly difficult to walk away from it, which was my choice in the end... it would have been much easier if he would have dumped me. Now i am with my Husband, who is a much better match for me than the ex ever was, i did learn a thing or two, and i know that i have a choice to walk away if i ever want, but that does not feel like an option ever at all really. Even when we did not see eye to eye and our relationship was crap i would sooner have cheated than walked away... i was afraid we would grow bitter, but luckily we managed to get through it... i know i have a good man, i will stay put, that is my choice

RealSub58 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/22/2010 7:07:12 AM)
quote: I want to know plain and simple, did you have a choice? Do you now? Why or why not? yes I had and still have a choice. 1. to be his submissive 2. to be honest, speak freely, obey I am required to speak freely but with respect. There are times when I am ruminating on something I cannot quite put my finger on and he seems to know me so well that he can figure it out and I express myself further.

Ishtarr -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/22/2010 12:28:33 PM)
Personally, I don't "do" the whole consent thing unless we're talking about casual play partners. I don't feel the need to overtly, verbally consent in a D/s relationship any more than I feel the need to consent in a vanilla relationship. During a relationship, my consent to whatever is going on, and whatever he is doing, is continuously displayed by the fact that I'm still present in the relationship. Should I at some point no longer wish to consent to the dynamic, I would bring the topic up for discussion and if we are unable to resolve the problem, I will stop consenting by removing myself from the relationship. I've never understood the whole "consent to obey" thing, because, to me, it makes it feel like it's something that I can choose to do, or choose to not do, which isn't the case. I never really feel like I make a conscious choice to submit, or to obey, instead, it's the natural reaction I have to the type of men that I'm in relationships with. As such, in most cases, I couldn't even really choose to not submit to him, because it would just be totally counter-instinctive to me. That doesn't mean that I would blindly follow each and every order without there ever being any struggle, but more that, if I'm struggling with obeying in a certain case, I'll bring that to his attention and the end result will always be that he finds a way to make me feel comfortable following his lead again, even if that wasn't my initial reaction. Personally, I would never promises anybody that I would obey their command, because then me following commands becomes a matter of personal honor, something I am obligated to do even if it would feel wrong. Instead, the dynamics I prefer is more along the lines of: "You can do whatever you want, and I will follow you as long as that feels right; when it doesn't feel right, I will tell you and we can see how we can resolve that issue". So on some level, yes I consent to being dominated, but it's implied consent: I consent because I'm there. On a different level, I would never consent to being dominated, because that would imply that I give him permission to dominate me, which is something that I would never do in my personal relationships. If he needs my permission to dominate me, he's not the right man for me.

leadership527 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/22/2010 12:51:59 PM)
@Ishtarr Yeah, that sounds a lot like Carol. I've come to the conclusion after the excellent viewpoints on this thread that my trouble with the word stems from the viewpoint you just described coupled with the lengthy marriage prior to the collaring. Between those two things, whatever might've passed for consent between us was water under the bridge long ago.

lally2 -> RE: Did/do you consent (6/22/2010 3:48:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 .I think you and Bear are lucky folks. I'll go ahead and offer a piece of unsolicited advice (cause we all know how much unsolicited advice is appreciated chuckles). Go slow and don't mess it up. - well if i do mess this one up ill deserve to be tarred, feathered and set alight - [:D]

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