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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 3:27:20 AM   
theAndrew


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/14/2006
Status: offline 		Sadly, you delude yourself. The current generation of American Politicians and Corporate America is completely  corrupt and morally bancrupt. It is evil in so far has it is willing to use taxpayers money and citizens lives to enrich itself further. It does not even comply with international law. It forces its own doctrines upon other sovereign nations. Like a bully it threatens much smaller and weaker nations. Interestingly it does not threaten the European Union,Russia,China,north korea or vietnam, because those nations would kick its ass permenantly if it tried to dictate and invade them. It abducts people and places them on flights to be tortured overseas. Most of the prisoners at guantanamo are innocent of any crime let alone terrorism. Their captures are guilty of many crimes. Many in guantanamo who were released are now instigating prosecutions against America in  the human rights courts. The british detainees released say they were actually captured by the taliban and imprisoned and that the northern alliance forces actually sold them to the Americans no questions asked. So we bought slaves to torture for our own perverse amusement.

< Message edited by theAndrew -- 4/14/2006 3:29:46 AM >

(in reply to DelightMachine)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 3:35:01 AM   
theAndrew


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/14/2006
Status: offline 		The french have usually only lost to the British and nobody else until the Advent of Nazi Germany. They are still a potent force from a military standpoint. Many nations fell to the Nazi onslaught in the second world war. Britain would have fallen had it not been an island fortress.That fact and that hugh manpower of its vast empire,though it never used conscription outside of the U.K.  helped it to win through. Had America not entered the war,the British Empire would have won alongside the russians, but it would have taken until at least 1950 to win.

(in reply to TolerableCruelty)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 3:38:15 AM   
theAndrew


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/14/2006
Status: offline 		Strange! The United States aquired itself an empire. Look at the hawaiian islands,the former spanish colonies in the caribbean and the philipines,guam,the marshal islands,the american virgin islands excetera.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 4:14:35 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FisherKing1963

America was born with terminal cancer.
Since it's birth it has been eaten from the inside out by the machinations of the elite cryptocracy made up of the decendents of  loyalists and aristocrats who should have been rounded up after yorktown and shot like the traitors and pigs they were.
Paradoxically, they were permitted not only to live, but to keep their land and their fortunes.

[Mod note:  Font size changed]


Brillant post. - All this talk of emerging super powers and not one post has mentioned the Shanghai Cooperation network or the history of and what happens after the fall of a reserve currency. I'll be back tonight and add my own little tid bits


 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to FisherKing1963)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 4:23:26 AM   
warmugger


Posts: 5
Joined: 4/14/2006
Status: offline 		The British have fought more wars these past 400 years than all of the worlds nations put together have fought. Their Navy is the oldest in both the ancient and modern worlds,dating from 882AD. Their Army is relatively new has armies go,being formed has a regular standing Army during the Commonwealth ara and continuing after the monarchy restoration. Their Air Force is the worlds oldest has a seperate service,dating from 1918. The nation has been on continious active service since 1660,bar one year,1968,when its forces were not on active service anywhere in the world. They were the worlds formost trading nation and got to know the habits and customs of other people before pursuading them to become part of the empire by force of arms or by diplomacy.

They also know the Arab mentality and tread carefully with them thus avoiding sustained,perpetual conflict with them.(Arabs or big on centuries old blood feuds).(America can expect arab terrorism of varies levals of intensity for  centuries to come. Not from arab governments but from bereaved and wronged relatives and their future generations).The different approaches of the British and Americans in Iraq can  clearly be seen.  There is insurection all over the country but the british have succeeded in keeping it down in the south by utilising less aggressive tactics and by not engaging in the wholesale slaughter of ther civilian population. In the rest of the country the americans adopt a aggressive tactics and harrass the civilian population. The murder innocent people and butcher wounded and helpless iraqis after fighting terminates. They also shot at anything that moves and does not have american markings. Even recently shooting up an italian vehicle that was carrying a freed italian hostage. The american military reflect american society,which is ill disciplined,ill led, morally bancrupt and inerantly violent.  The world knows that the Iraqi elected government is under the direct control of the Americans and that it is not acting independently or inviting the coalition to remain. The coalition remains has enforced occupiers of iraq and will do so until the oil dries up.

< Message edited by warmugger -- 4/14/2006 4:29:15 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 4:48:53 AM   
warmugger


Posts: 5
Joined: 4/14/2006
Status: offline 		There is far more truth in your jocular statement than you may realise. It is entirely feasible that idealist young men could be recruited by fellow muslims in the pay of the CIA who use an islamic front organisation. Such a network( Al Qeada means network) could be organised so it has no obvious direct links with America. Young  impressionable men then recruited and trained by others within,who themselves are oblivious to the fact the Americans are their real paymasters.The network then paid to commit certain attrocities,recruits young idealists to enter into a suicidal jihad for the benefit of islam. They being entirely unawere,has are those that recruit them,that thercountry they attack is the one who is their real paymaster and orcestrator of events. Strange how all the Bin Laden family were allowed to fly out of the states after 9/11 when all other civil aircraft grounded. Strange how with modern electronic listening devices,satelight photography,global positioning devices,that Bin Laden has never been captured. Strange that nobody has betrayed him for the substantial reward. Strange that it appears to be a missle and not a aircraft to hit the Pentagon. Strange that hyjacked planes where never intercepted,even after air traffic controllers knew what was going on. Strange that television cameras where in place across the river in new Jersey in addition to manhatten,before the first aircraft struck the twin towers let alone when the second one struck. Stange that people overseas where watching it all unfold on their televisions even before most new yorkers new what the hell was going on. This was planned during the 1990s by the bush family and their business and secret society associates. Pity those brave folks fought back on the last aircraft that was sheduled to hit the capitol building.

< Message edited by warmugger -- 4/14/2006 4:53:13 AM >

(in reply to FisherKing1963)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 5:10:58 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Interesting post, a lot of crap and wild guessing, but interesting. America has some issues, agreed, but on the wain? Compared to? The only ladder climbers I see are the Muslin nations...and of course this is spirited by the ultimate corrupter..religion. As for China being some sort of power, unless technology is mysteriously omitted from the equation where we play "the one with the most people wins", I find this highly unlikely. Having dealt with China on the industrial level over last two years, they are having a tough time even entering into industrial competition. Yes, they have cheap labor, end of story. A Superpower?...not likely...they copy, they do not lead.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to Turdstool)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 5:58:07 AM   
FisherKing1963


Posts: 54
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		Strange indeed...
How the US government and the media just knew who all the 'hijackers' were so soon after the attack...mugshots and all...15 of them...no more no less...before the first body was recovered from the wreckage.
Strange how witnesses can place Atta and others at flight schools in Florida, making spectacles of themselves when they could have learned to fly anywhere in the middle east without suspicion.
Strange how all the bodies at the pentagon have been 'positively identified' when the official claim is that the entire 757 including 2 jet engines were "vaporized by the intense heat".
Strange how the 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' who kidnapped Nick berg and others took the trouble to dress them in bright orange prison jumpsuits before decapitating them.
Strange...
But hey...don't mind me...I must be sniffing glue.

-FK63

[Mod Note:  Font size edited]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 4/14/2006 8:47:00 AM >

(in reply to warmugger)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:03:20 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine
Art, when it's the U.S. supporting a dictatorship, you get on your high horse and say we're supporting evil. When the nasty dictatorship is run by Fidel Castro, you only describe them as humanitarian.


Talk about out of context. Wearing the tinfoil hat today?

You will note my comments about Russia and Chine preceding my commnets about Castro's Cuba. If we can normalize relations with China, we can do it with Cuba. Goose and Gander, buddy.

Also, the problem is the brutal oppression of people trying to struggle against those dictatorships. People are free to choose or apathetically accept whatever government they want in their country. They want a Big Poppa to take care of them, their business. My problem is the utterly unacceptable and unethical intervention to prevent the removal of such authortarian regimes.

quote:

Now you say we're being imperial, but we can't even kill Hugo Chavez (which would be a positive step for humanity).

I think you're very consistent: Hate America First, Last and Always.


Being imperial and enforcing an empire have nothing to with being perfect. A bungling emperor is still emperor.

And by the by Delight: F*@k you. I've bled in service to this country. Literally. Pull your head out of your neocon ass to see not everyone who disagrees with what our country has done and continues to do is anti-American. Speaking out is not only a right, but a duty and I'm interested if you know which founding father was so insistant of that virtue.

You want to talk about hating America and her virtues, look at *both* the Republicans and Democrats. They obviously have no respect for Constitutional ethics.

*meow*

(in reply to DelightMachine)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:08:32 AM   
Riff


Posts: 51
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

An interesting theory, but one that ignores some important factors, the biggest of which is military might.
 
Most great empires last well past their prime, just on military might alone. Right now, there are serious gaps in several areas, between the military of the United States, and all other nations.
 
It's all fine and dandy to say that this nation or that is corrupt and morally backrupt, and you may in fact be 100% correct in that assessment ... but the reality of history is that "might makes right" ... and right now, the United States and her very close allies have a whole hell of a lot more "right", then everyone else in the world.
 
Good topic. We were discussing this in class, just a few days ago, so I can't really take credit for all this wonderful insite. 


Arguably the USA's reliance on technology is it's achilles heel. Once it gets down to the hand to hand fighting in the streets, the average American has no stomach for it. Viet Nam is the prime example but even in both World Wars there were questions asked about the levels of casualties the US military suffered. If you look at American military tradition it is one of technology and stand-off combat. From the Springfield Rifle through the Strategic Bombing Offensive through to the Cold War and even now the super bombers and tactics of "Shock and awe."

This stand off stratagem is designed to reduce American casualties, a sound concept in and off itself but it does leave the people unprepared for when things go wrong, such as Viet Nam or even now in Iraq. It's arguable that this tactic locally has fuelled much of the insurgency itself. If you compare British and US forces combating insurgency immediately after the war there was a marked difference. If a squad of US soldiers came under fire the typical response would be to isolate the area and then use long range missiles and helicoper gunships to demolish the building, which had a very negative impact on what we euphemistically call collateral damage. The British response would frequently be to fix bayonets and storm the building. This increased the risk to BRitish personell but removed almost all threats to innocent civilians and insurgency was almost unheard of around Basra for over a year. (This had been a relatively standard practice in Northern Ireland for many years.)

The upshot of this is that when the technology fails (ie when one can no longer readily identify ones enemy) the troops on the ground are hamstrung in a psychological sense, since their greatest shield has demonstrably failed (Blackhawk Down is a prime example) and they lose the moral fortitude they have since their culture is so far removed from alternative combat systems such as suicide insurgency and terrorism. Unless the USA realises that in any conflict it must bear a heavier cost, eventually it will fall to the nations who are prepared to suffer the greater pain and even its nuclear arsenal will be unable to protect it.


(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:09:18 AM   
FisherKing1963


Posts: 54
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		::Talk about out of context. Wearing the tinfoil hat today? ::

Is this in reference to my post?

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:26:14 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

An interesting theory, but one that ignores some important factors, the biggest of which is military might.
 
Most great empires last well past their prime, just on military might alone. Right now, there are serious gaps in several areas, between the military of the United States, and all other nations.


If you’re looking at world domination, world domination is decided in the short run by military forces and hegemony of that type. But as soon as you look into the medium run and especially the long run,then it’s a matter of economics {That’s where military forces come from}  

And for this country, the question of ‘’economics’’ is ultimately tied to the dollar. The dollar has been the world reserve currency since shortly after 1944. And since 1971, it’s had a kinda residual world reserve currency role.  

The question/control of oil and raw materials are linked to the dominant currency of the world. So, if you have the dominant currency in the world you’re going to be the dominant power in the world, irregardless of who nominally owns or nationalizes the oil/raw materials. Who ever controls the reserve currency controls the access and holds the acquisition power. 

But now with both China and Japan financing so much of our debt, and Iran and North Korea no longer accepting dollars and switching over to the Euro, look what’s happened to valuation of the dollar over the last seven years.  

Knowing that history often repeats itself, I would say to look at what happened to both Britain and the world after the fall of the ‘’pound’’ as the worlds reserve currency. We were deluged by both Nazism and fascism. If the dollar continues to lose it's holding power, it can't be a good sign of things to come.



 - R





< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/14/2006 6:32:22 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:42:28 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You're assuming a constant and commensurate increase in the world's ability to sustain humanity, and that's just not going to happen.  In fact, the opposite is going to happen--for many reasons, the most important being that the environment will not allow unchecked and unsustainable "growth" to continue.  The world's population is already larger than what is sustainable in the long term.  It isn't going to be 20 billion; it isn't even going to be 6 billion.  It might go all the way down to 3 billion.

Have you read anything about demographics or are you just looking at recent population growth rates and extrapolating outwards?

quote:

ORIGINAL: theAndrew

The population of the Earth has risen by 3 billion in 25 years. It is now 6 billiion. in 20 years it is projected to reach 12 billion. Has each generation copulates so does the population increase. There will still be sufficient landmass since most of the planet is not occupied by people in great numbers. Europe is saturated but north america could still sustain 6 times it current population.Latin America 4 times,africa 20 times and asia 3 times.

(in reply to theAndrew)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:47:31 AM   
understud


Posts: 102
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you for allowing me into the discussion sir. Yes the country is mighty, but I feel this generation lacks either the political willpower or the collective "GUTS" to deal with what will obviously be a long drawnout costly affair. Not warfare in the traditional sense but more as lightning raids and terrorism.

The nation in my opinion is broken into factions IE Native Americans...Latino Americans Italian Americans and so forth and so on...No one is calming to be an American of such and such a  lineage. Every group is out to grab as much political power as possible by any means possible, ignoring the face we are all Americans..therefore in this day and age all targets and individually vulnerable.  How can any nation exist if sections of the population courts favor from the enemy.  The United States Is not one nation as we all know, but an aigrette of fifty formerly independent states, now yoked by federal authority, 
I am not that well read on this as I would wish so if I reason in error please let me know so that I can see with new understanding. Unless this nation somehow revitalized a spirit of unabashed nationalism ...It's all over ...I believe we as a nation are on borrowed time as it is. Every time I see our leaders suck up to the U.N. my heart cries in anguish.  Some Nation will eventually rule the world as a single entity..I would pray it would be us...But that's just my Bias...I sure the British or French or any of the other nations feel the same way.  If we are truly a super power ...isn't it time we started to act like one.
Again thank you for allowing me in I'll try to learn how all this works...sincerely

_____________________________

If you don't love and respect yourself; how the hell can you love and respect anyone else

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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:50:30 AM   
FisherKing1963


Posts: 54
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		"...population increases in a geometric ratio, while the means of subsistence increases in an arithmetic ratio."
-Thomas malthus

Yes, many people will die when the New World Order is established, but it will be a much better world for those who survive".
- Henry Kissinger

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 6:57:24 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I see no real indications of the US's global decline.

We invent damn near everything on the planet of importance. Until another nation starts being the primary driver of new technologies, I see nothing changing. The computer you are using(american), the internet you are connected to (american). There may be a few things that are important not created by the US but the list is definitely much longer than for other nations. And as long as that's the case we will have the newest and greatest weapons as well.

All the countries or conglomerations of countries mentioned are focusing on infrastructure not on developing technology to the degree the US does.

The EU does, but you are dealing with multiple countries all trying to work together to match the creative and economic capacity of one nation.

And the EU has vastly more problems in its near future than the US. Muslims namely.

However, for the foreseeable future the EU remains the only mature economy with access to the resources necessary to drive a high degree of technical research. But only  if they can overcome there  own  problems.

The US is far away from the muslim nations so if war breaks out on a WWIII level, the brunt of the impact will fall on the european communities door step.  Helping the US economy as most likely we would build the war machines used. We have access to cheap labor via  latin america, and neither Canada nor Mexico is a real military threat.

So, namely the US has one problem and only one problem. Oil, and it looks like that is getting wrapped up as we speak(Iraq). So, barring we get kicked out of Iraq, we are good for at least another 50 years. This is hugely easy to fix if we weren't being so nice about it. But alas we don't just go and level the whole damn country as we could, but try to just install a more U.S. friendly government with a convenient base right in the middle of the Middle East from which we can permanently ensure we are in front of the gas line until the wells run dry.

Put me in charge and you'd be praising current US diplomacy. LOL

And if you're curious I don't see any problems with the way we are handling things in the middle east. I mean are we in a episode of the tele tubbies. We need oil, so we got oil. Simple. Or would you prefer we didn't secure oil, and were completely screwed in 20 years. People are to huggy feely, and of course wouldn't approve a war for oil. So, obviously you have to rouse the populace into compliance. Regardless, It's the governments job to protect it's people and oil is key to the future welfare of the US populace and economy. It's not the job of government to protect the whole freakin planet or iraqis.  So, that's how it is. Every government or institution does what is in its best interest to do. Barring the discovery of a perpetual motion machine, we will be in the middle east until it becomes compliant and secure for consistant oil production. We will control the oil via military threat or direct action. So, other governments if smart would support that stance if they don't want to get the short end of the stick, later. In hippie land(LOL), I guess there are infinite resources, but in the real world there is only enough for some.

Thanks

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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 7:08:40 AM   
FisherKing1963


Posts: 54
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		:: People are to huggy feely, and of course wouldn't approve a war for oil. So, obviously you have to rouse the populace into compliance.::

By flying fucking planes full of the populace into buildings full of even more of the populace?

-FK

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 7:11:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Art,
quote:

We certainly are maintaining an empire. Just because we don't use direct military intervention doesn't mean we're not putting down that pressure.

Military intervention defines an empire. If it was Rome instead of the US would Cuba exist as an autonomous country? "Pressure" can never be as strong as military power.

The Roman senate and it's due process only extended to Roman citizens. How did you become a Roman citizen? You were either born to it or conquered. Same with the British colonists. The British empire collapsed not because they didn't use their military power, but because its power was overextended. The colonist of America revolted because as British subjects/citizens they were not afforded the same rights.
quote:

Re: Muslim States: They might ally for a short period of time, but it will quickly devolve (witness the temporary alliances against the Ottomans, the Nazis and Israel).

Time was not important to the consideration of an alliance. But thanks for agreeing that for a period of time they could ally. That would be all that's necessary.

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
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RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 7:11:37 AM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Riff

Arguably the USA's reliance on technology is it's achilles heel. Once it gets down to the hand to hand fighting in the streets, the average American has no stomach for it.


You're obviously not talking to the right Americans.

quote:

Viet Nam is the prime example


I'm not aware of a single military defeat suffered by the US in Vietnam.  The US failed in Vietnam because the country lost the political will to win the war.

quote:

The upshot of this is that when the technology fails (ie when one can no longer readily identify ones enemy) the troops on the ground are hamstrung in a psychological sense, since their greatest shield has demonstrably failed (Blackhawk Down is a prime example) and they lose the moral fortitude they have since their culture is so far removed from alternative combat systems such as suicide insurgency and terrorism. Unless the USA realises that in any conflict it must bear a heavier cost, eventually it will fall to the nations who are prepared to suffer the greater pain and even its nuclear arsenal will be unable to protect it.


I think you might want to watch (or better yet, read) Blackhawk Down before you draw any conclusions about the moral fortitude of American military personnel.  If you're talking about the moral fortitude of the American civilian leadership at that time, well...that's a different story.

Edit: spelling


< Message edited by pollux -- 4/14/2006 7:12:47 AM >

(in reply to Riff)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American domin... - 4/14/2006 7:14:02 AM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline 		Merc gets the gold star.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 60
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