RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/28/2010 1:18:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree but I don't understand the reason they are not being enforced...you and I and the majority of Americans want them enforced... Why are they not?

I believe they are too vague and ineffectual wording like this

”Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor”

and

$250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual;

These are not tough enough even with fines… as far as I know there has been no imprisonment for the likes of Walmart and Sam’s even though the law allows it.

Butch


Because, as much as they want to deny it, government and Big Business are in bed together. I think it would make a fantastic story for some reporter to investigate who hires help within their homes and which of these employees are legal. Wouldnt matter what party affiliation. The media makes it out like its the Republicans who are always against these kinds of measures... and the amnesty issue certainly seems to back up that feeling.

Its my belief, and only my belief, that too many in government either hire workers or invest in the kinds of companies that hire illegals, so nothing will be done anytime soon, other than token arrests to keep J Q Public mollified.




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/28/2010 5:58:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

We have become a society that is controlled by votes.

Wasn't that the purpose of the constitution?

Many cite the fact that illegals spend their money here. Do they? Most that i know sleep 10 - 12 to a house,

You know illegal aliens and do not report them?
This would imply that you also know their employers which are committing a federal felony.
That would make you an accessory after the fact.
How can you expect the cops to do their job if you as a citizen will not do yours?



saving the majority of what they make to send "home" to their families. They spend only what they need to live here, the rest goes out of country.

You mean that they have the audacity to actually spend the money that they earn as they choose..I thought that was pretty much settled law that one was entitled to what they earn.





thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/28/2010 6:04:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi thompsonx

So you believe migrate workers are not used to harvest strawberries? Sometimes you talk without thinking.

Perhaps you should learn a bit about what you are discussing and your foot would not be in your mouth so often.

I am saying we need legal migrate workers but don't need illegal aliens to take entry level jobs...my analogies can’t be straighter.

The term migrant worker does not imply foriegn ethnicity. It means one who travels from crop to crop at harvest time.

We have always agreed on enforcement of laws… I just believe they need to be stronger for a real deterrent.

The penality for the first offense of hiring an illegal alien is a felony with a $10,000 fine and/or 5 years in the federal slammer for each illegal alien. If an ongoing cycle of such behaviour is noted then the RICO act applies and forfieture of all assets both corporate and personal can ensue.

Butch





tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/28/2010 7:58:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

We have become a society that is controlled by votes.

Wasn't that the purpose of the constitution?






Hardly the purpose. Not much of a history buff are you.

quote:



Many cite the fact that illegals spend their money here. Do they? Most that i know sleep 10 - 12 to a house,

You know illegal aliens and do not report them?
This would imply that you also know their employers which are committing a federal felony.
That would make you an accessory after the fact.
How can you expect the cops to do their job if you as a citizen will not do yours?




You cant be naive enough to believe they dont know already. I work in this industry. Reporting would only cost me my job, and as you, yourself, have pointed out, it wouldnt change a thing.

quote:




saving the majority of what they make to send "home" to their families. They spend only what they need to live here, the rest goes out of country.

You mean that they have the audacity to actually spend the money that they earn as they choose..I thought that was pretty much settled law that one was entitled to what they earn.





Go back and reread my post in full. Ill give you a hand.

Many cite the fact that illegals spend their money here. Do they? Most that i know sleep 10 - 12 to a house, saving the majority of what they make to send "home" to their families. They spend only what they need to live here, the rest goes out of country.

Now, if you wish to make an issue of this, then so be it. But quit chopping up posts to say what you want them to say.




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/28/2010 8:37:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

We have become a society that is controlled by votes.

Wasn't that the purpose of the constitution?






Hardly the purpose. Not much of a history buff are you.

Is it your position that we should not have the vote?

quote:



Many cite the fact that illegals spend their money here. Do they? Most that i know sleep 10 - 12 to a house,

You know illegal aliens and do not report them?
This would imply that you also know their employers which are committing a federal felony.
That would make you an accessory after the fact.
How can you expect the cops to do their job if you as a citizen will not do yours?




You cant be naive enough to believe they dont know already. I work in this industry. Reporting would only cost me my job, and as you, yourself, have pointed out, it wouldnt change a thing.

There is a law against whistle blowers being fired.
No I have pointed out that the employers should be arrested and tried for the federal felony that they are committing


quote:




saving the majority of what they make to send "home" to their families. They spend only what they need to live here, the rest goes out of country.

You mean that they have the audacity to actually spend the money that they earn as they choose..I thought that was pretty much settled law that one was entitled to what they earn.





Go back and reread my post in full. Ill give you a hand.

Many cite the fact that illegals spend their money here. Do they? Most that i know sleep 10 - 12 to a house, saving the majority of what they make to send "home" to their families. They spend only what they need to live here, the rest goes out of country.

Now, if you wish to make an issue of this, then so be it. But quit chopping up posts to say what you want them to say.

My position is that if one earns their money they are entitled to spend it how they choose. I am sorry you do not agree with my constitutionally supported position.
If you do not approve of the constitution of my country why do you live here?






tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 1:28:46 AM)

No where did i say they could not spend their money as they wish. I said that was the argument of so many people for illegals being here... that the money they make here adds to our economy, which is a fallacy from those illegals i do know and what they tell me about others.

What was the purpose of the constitution? As i recall it was to establish a federal government and to give said government limited powers. It had nothing to do with a vote.

quote:

There is a law against whistle blowers being fired.
No I have pointed out that the employers should be arrested and tried for the federal felony that they are committing


And i support myself how while im waiting for that lawsuit.

Should have/would have/could have.... all nice words... that dont mean jack. I live in the land of reality, not what should be happening. Try it sometime.

quote:

If you do not approve of the constitution of my country why do you live here?


Your country? Since this is your country, pay your bills, boy. your country is a few trillion in debt and your facing forclosure.

But, honestly, isnt that argument the same as when Bush was in office and people were complaining against his policies? Same fallacy here. Except... this is my country as well. The home of my heritage. My lineage begins here. And the country you claim as being your own even states i dont have to follow all the rules you do.

Imagine that!




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 10:25:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No where did i say they could not spend their money as they wish. I said that was the argument of so many people for illegals being here... that the money they make here adds to our economy, which is a fallacy from those illegals i do know and what they tell me about others.

Here is where you say it:
Many cite the fact that illegals spend their money here.
Notice the period at the end of this statement?

Do they? Most that i know sleep 10 - 12 to a house, saving the majority of what they make to send "home" to their families. They spend only what they need to live here, the rest goes out of country.
This is the part where you state your flawed opinion. You cite only your opinion that the illegals send most of their money out of the country. You seem to fail to notice that they pay rents, pay taxes, buy food and so forth, all of which contribute to the u.s. economy



What was the purpose of the constitution? As i recall it was to establish a federal government and to give said government limited powers. It had nothing to do with a vote.

Is it really your position that the constitution does not require that the congress and the president are elected by voters?

quote:

There is a law against whistle blowers being fired.
No I have pointed out that the employers should be arrested and tried for the federal felony that they are committing


And i support myself how while im waiting for that lawsuit.

Perhaps you should read the law before you try to tell us what it says?

Should have/would have/could have.... all nice words... that dont mean jack. I live in the land of reality, not what should be happening. Try it sometime.

It is far easier to curse the darkness than to light a single candle


quote:

If you do not approve of the constitution of my country why do you live here?


Your country? Since this is your country, pay your bills, boy. your country is a few trillion in debt and your facing forclosure.

It is my habit to pay my bills on time and in cash

But, honestly, isnt that argument the same as when Bush was in office and people were complaining against his policies?


You are not complaning about some president's policy you are complaining about the constitution...There is a significant difference

Same fallacy here. Except... this is my country as well. The home of my heritage. My lineage begins here.

No...your heritage like mine is believed to begin in the olduvai gorge in africa.

And the country you claim as being your own even states i dont have to follow all the rules you do.

Would you like to show us just where you got that moronic idea?
You do not live on the reservation.
When you visit the reservation you are exempt in some instances from a very few and specific aspects...would you care to enumerate those?


Imagine that!





tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 11:07:50 AM)

quote:

This is the part where you state your flawed opinion. You cite only your opinion that the illegals send most of their money out of the country. You seem to fail to notice that they pay rents, pay taxes, buy food and so forth, all of which contribute to the u.s. economy


And here is where you tend to rewrite other people's posts to suit your own purpose. 10 - 12 in a house... paying one rent. The illegals i know send over half their paychecks home. I, personally, could care less how they spend it or where they live. But it doesnt support the argument that they spend their paychecks here.

quote:

Is it really your position that the constitution does not require that the congress and the president are elected by voters?


This isnt what you stated, or even asked. You stated the purpose of the constitution was votes. Now you are backpeddaling, as usual.

quote:

You are not complaning about some president's policy you are complaining about the constitution...There is a significant difference


Go back and read again. You are the one who, erroneously, brought in the Constitution. No one is complaining about that.

quote:

Would you like to show us just where you got that moronic idea?
You do not live on the reservation.
When you visit the reservation you are exempt in some instances from a very few and specific aspects...would you care to enumerate those?


Are you suggesting the new health law doesnt allow Native Americans to opt out of the mandate?
That the IRS doesnty provide certain, though limited, exemptions to the same group?
That some states allow tax exemption status to native americans under certain conditions?

And while your snarky comment

quote:

No...your heritage like mine is believed to begin in the olduvai gorge in africa.


This is incorrect.

quote:

In 1931, Leakey organised an expedition to the Gorge with Reck, and found stone tools within a few hours of arriving at the gorge.
In further excarvations, Leakey and his wife Mary found and described many stone tools and fossil animals, but found no significant hominid ("human-like") fossils until 1959, when Mary Leakey discovered the first skull of "Zinjanthropus".

Now renamed Australopithecus boisei, this creature had a massive skull with huge teeth that suggested a diet of coarse vegetable food, and lived 1.75 million years ago. In 1976 Mary Leakey discovered a fossil hominid and animal tracks at Laetoli, a site twice as ancient as anything at Olduvai.


http://www.africhoice.com/olduvai_gorge_tanzania.html

All life began somewhere. I doubt it all began in exactly one spot. But you go with your belief. And when you have exact proof, then i will revist my belief that native americans are the indigenous people.

Indigenous peoples are people, communities, and nations who claim a historical continuity and cultural affinity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies which sprung up on their original territories, and therefore consider themselves distinct from societies of the majority culture/s that have contested their cultural sovereignty and self-determination.

Other related terms for indigenous peoples include aborigines ( æbəˈrɪdʒɪni (help·info)), aboriginal people, native people, first people, fourth world cultures and autochthonous.

Indigenous peoples of the American continents are broadly recognized as being those groups and their descendants who inhabited the region before the arrival of European colonizers and settlers (i.e., Pre-Columbian). Indigenous peoples who maintain, or seek to maintain, traditional ways of life are found from the high Arctic north to the southern extremities of Tierra del Fuego.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples

Now, when i said i am exempt, i meant native americans. [;)]

I look forward to seeing your argument.




kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 11:50:30 AM)

Why don't you read... THIS... the REAL law not one you made up..

Butch




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 3:22:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Why don't you read... THIS... the REAL law not one you made up..

Butch



Your data is out of date. The government has raised the fine to a maximum of $16,000 per illegal employed.

http://contractormag.com/news/feds_raise_fines/




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 3:26:20 PM)

quote:

This isnt what you stated, or even asked. You stated the purpose of the constitution was votes. Now you are backpeddaling, as usual.


Is it really your position that the constitution is only about one issue?
For those who have never had a civics class it is the framework by which our country is governed. Preminant among those is voting for the president and the congress.




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 3:39:09 PM)

quote:


quote:

No...your heritage like mine is believed to begin in the olduvai gorge in africa.

This is incorrect.

quote:

In 1931, Leakey organised an expedition to the Gorge with Reck, and found stone tools within a few hours of arriving at the gorge.
In further excarvations, Leakey and his wife Mary found and described many stone tools and fossil animals, but found no significant hominid ("human-like") fossils until 1959, when Mary Leakey discovered the first skull of "Zinjanthropus".

Now renamed Australopithecus boisei, this creature had a massive skull with huge teeth that suggested a diet of coarse vegetable food, and lived 1.75 million years ago. In 1976 Mary Leakey discovered a fossil hominid and animal tracks at Laetoli, a site twice as ancient as anything at Olduvai.


Do you just open your mouth to change feet.
Laetoli is in close proximity to the olduvai gorge.




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 3:44:02 PM)

quote:

quote:

Would you like to show us just where you got that moronic idea?
You do not live on the reservation.
When you visit the reservation you are exempt in some instances from a very few and specific aspects...would you care to enumerate those?


Are you suggesting the new health law doesnt allow Native Americans to opt out of the mandate?

No, if you could read, I ask you to provide a list of the execpetions.


That the IRS doesnty provide certain, though limited, exemptions to the same group?
That some states allow tax exemption status to native americans under certain conditions?

You clearly do not know what they are or you would have cited them.
/quote]




BKSir -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 3:56:25 PM)

Precisely!  Just like, "You want to come into my kitchen, stand for 10 hours straight, washing dishes and running for crap for me, for $12/hour?  No?  Good, because Jose here does, and is damned happy to be getting $10/hour, and getting  twice the work done that you would be.  So either get on par work wise, or quit wasting my time.  I've got shit I need to be cooking, and then Jose and I are going out for a couple drinks after work, because he's not a whiny bitch and I actually enjoy hanging with him."

Yep, think my standpoint on the news story and movement is pretty clear.  If Gringo Johnny wants to step up and do the work, without bitching constantly, sure, I'll hire him.  Until then though...  Jose, let's grab a smoke and a couple cold ones and get our asses back to work.




kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 4:26:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Why don't you read... THIS... the REAL law not one you made up..

Butch



Your data is out of date. The government has raised the fine to a maximum of $16,000 per illegal employed.

http://contractormag.com/news/feds_raise_fines/



I give you the actual Statute you give me contractor mag.

This is what you posted to me:

The penality for the first offense of hiring an illegal alien is a felony with a $10,000 fine and/or 5 years in the federal slammer for each illegal alien. If an ongoing cycle of such behaviour is noted then the RICO act applies and forfieture of all assets both corporate and personal can ensue.

This is not the case under the statute and never has been. Even your link does not confirm your post…yet you call others stupid for not finding the facts before they open their mouths.

You would do well to follow your own advice and find the facts before making a fool of yourself.

You are quickly loosing credibility and your confrontational style is childish.

Butch




flcouple2009 -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 6:07:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir
Precisely!  Just like, "You want to come into my kitchen, stand for 10 hours straight, washing dishes and running for crap for me, for $12/hour?  No?  Good, because Jose here does, and is damned happy to be getting $10/hour, and getting  twice the work done that you would be.  So either get on par work wise, or quit wasting my time.  I've got shit I need to be cooking, and then Jose and I are going out for a couple drinks after work, because he's not a whiny bitch and I actually enjoy hanging with him."

Yep, think my standpoint on the news story and movement is pretty clear.  If Gringo Johnny wants to step up and do the work, without bitching constantly, sure, I'll hire him.  Until then though...  Jose, let's grab a smoke and a couple cold ones and get our asses back to work.


Funny how you should mention that.

I have a close friend who's step son is the executive chef of a restaurant in Chicago.  He also runs a smaller place down the street for his bosses.

This is a huge restaurant and banquet facility with corporate owners.  They have very strict rules on paperwork and who can be hired. 

His other chef buddies have Mexicans of questionable legality doing the dish washing, prep work,  and such.  He pays more and has benefits but is constantly looking for people to fill those jobs.  Either no one wants the job or they certainly don't actually want to do the work.




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 6:26:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Why don't you read... THIS... the REAL law not one you made up..

Butch



Your data is out of date. The government has raised the fine to a maximum of $16,000 per illegal employed.

http://contractormag.com/news/feds_raise_fines/



I give you the actual Statute you give me contractor mag.

This is what you posted to me:

The penality for the first offense of hiring an illegal alien is a felony with a $10,000 fine and/or 5 years in the federal slammer for each illegal alien. If an ongoing cycle of such behaviour is noted then the RICO act applies and forfieture of all assets both corporate and personal can ensue.

This is not the case under the statute and never has been. Even your link does not confirm your post…yet you call others stupid for not finding the facts before they open their mouths.

You would do well to follow your own advice and find the facts before making a fool of yourself.

You are quickly loosing credibility and your confrontational style is childish.

Butch


It is your research ability which is childish.
You have quoted the civil penalities for hiring an illegal alien which are from your cite.

(4) Cease and desist order with civil money penalty for hiring,
recruiting, and referral violations
With respect to a violation of subsection (a)(1)(A) or (a)(2) of this section, the order under this subsection -
(A) shall require the person or entity to cease and desist from such violations and to pay a civil penalty in an amount of -
(i) not less than $250 and not more than $2,000 for each unauthorized alien with respect to whom a violation of either such subsection occurred,
(ii) not less than $2,000 and not more than $5,000 for each such alien in the case of a person or entity previously subject to one order under this paragraph, or
(iii) not less than $3,000 and not more than $10,000 for each such alien in the case of a person or entity previously subject to more than one order under this paragraph;

In addition there are also criminal sanctions. If you would look here.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersbcdd#content


from which you might want to note

Conspiracy to commit the crimes of sheltering, harboring, or employing illegal aliens is a separate federal offense punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 or five years imprisonment.25

Footnote 25 refers to 18 USCS 371...which says:

In summary, those activities which courts have held defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 371 affect the government in at least one of three ways:

They cheat the government out of money or property;
They interfere or obstruct legitimate Government activity; or
They make wrongful use of a governmental instrumentality.
[cited in USAM 9-42.001]


Of course the article in the contractors mag updates the max fine to $16,000.
If you do not like the taste of shoe leather then perhaps you should keep your feet out of your mouth.




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 6:34:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir

Precisely!  Just like, "You want to come into my kitchen, stand for 10 hours straight, washing dishes and running for crap for me, for $12/hour?  No?  Good, because Jose here does, and is damned happy to be getting $10/hour, and getting  twice the work done that you would be.  So either get on par work wise, or quit wasting my time.  I've got shit I need to be cooking, and then Jose and I are going out for a couple drinks after work, because he's not a whiny bitch and I actually enjoy hanging with him."

Yep, think my standpoint on the news story and movement is pretty clear.  If Gringo Johnny wants to step up and do the work, without bitching constantly, sure, I'll hire him.  Until then though...  Jose, let's grab a smoke and a couple cold ones and get our asses back to work.




So you are proud to be known as a felon.
Some people bring the meaning of the title "white trash" to a new low.
We all thank you and applaud your candid assessment of your character.




THELADY -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 7:39:05 PM)

I once worked cleaning new construction homes. one of those jobs americans won't do, manual labor... (I was indeed being a smart ass as VP 'biteme' biden would say, for I and the crew I worked with are American) and the carpenters and painters were all hispanic.

I knew several American carpenters and painters who were scrambeling for work but could not find positions in the new housing market.....

so much for the argument its jobs Americans won't do.......

I also know that several of the mexicans were illigal (inded, I reported them..anomously) amazing how word went around the job site and several workers dissapered when the immigraion guys showed up. you don't think....it couldn't be possible.....nawwww,they couldn't have been forwarned....

I talked to many of these guys and many, both those who had temp work permits and illigals admitted they were here to work to send money home.....and soon as they had enough they were going home. they shared housing to keep expenses down.

I am not aginst any immigrant, this is a great country, welcome to your new home. illigal alians are not legal immigrants, they should not be here!

That's what I believe and I'm sticking to it!




THELADY -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/29/2010 7:46:04 PM)

Also I am not aginst those who apply to work here temporally or migrant farm workers

migrant farm workers have been making the rounds for ages, they are legally allowed to come in temporally.




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