RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs

RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/18/2010 9:29:09 PM)
quote: Besides this post where have you mentioned "Ruths Steak House"? Its actually Ruths Chris Steakhouse. And where? here. As far as the case itself, i used it to define what the courts are thinking. quote: Count 1 was the part where the employers claimed they did not know that the illegal aliens were not just tourist who had overstayed their visas. Which is the part you wish to make your case on. The alabama court dismissed that count and the federal appeals court reversed the alabama court. So it would appear that your cite substantiates my position. You neglected to say why they knew. The employers were the ones providing social security numbers. The Court, in its ruling, decided that providing such numbers was an inducement to work here, thereby valid in the original complaint and never should have been dismissed. Prime, which was the name of the business, was accused of giving illegal employees SS numbers. The only element the defendants contend has not been sufficiently pleaded is the first one, which is that the plaintiffs “encouraged or induced” illegal aliens to reside in this country. The district court concluded the plaintiffs had not pleaded that element even though they had alleged that the defendants had knowingly supplied the aliens with jobs and with social security numbers to facilitate their employment. The court believed those alleged actions do not amount to encouragement or inducement for purposes of § 1334(a)(1)(A)(iv). See Edwards v. Prime, Inc., No. 08-1016, at 12–13 (N.D. Ala. Dec. 11, 2008). We believe the district court was mistaken. ........... Similarly, in Ndiaye this Court affirmed a defendant’s conviction under § 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv) for helping one illegal alien fraudulently obtain a social security number. 434 F.3d at 1296. The defendant contended that the government “failed to show any actual, potential or perceived relationship between immigration status and receipt of a Social Security number.” Id. He argued “that while there may be some correlation between the issuance of Social Security numbers and aliens employed in the United States, the act of merely helping someone obtain a Social Security number cannot be construed as ‘encouraging or inducing’ them to reside in this country in violation of the criminal statute.” Id. at 1297–98 (emphasis added). We rejected that argument. Since the alien “was able to work in the United States because of the Social Security number he was issued,” we held that a reasonable “jury could have found that [the defendant] encouraged or induced an alien . . . to reside in the United States, knowing it was in violation of the law.” Id. at 1298; see also id. (“A jury could find that [the defendant’s] assistance in helping [an alien] obtain a Social Security card, which the evidence established he is not entitled to have, encouraged or induced him to reside in this country in violation of the statute.”). Consistent with that decision is Kuku in which we affirmed a conviction under § 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv) for fraudulently approving social security card applications that were filed on behalf of illegal aliens. 129 F.3d at 1437. Although the scope of § 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv) was not at issue in that case, we did recognize that social security numbers can be used “to apply for federal benefits, to attend school, and to obtain employment.” Id.; see also Ndiaye, 434 F.3d at 1298 (discussing Kuku). http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200911699.pdf Starts on page 30. This also supports what i am saying. That the laws are viewed differently based upon the harboring factor.

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 10:17:22 AM)
Thank you for pointing out that butch was wrong when he posted quote: I believe they are too vague and ineffectual wording like this ”Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor” and $250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual; Butch quote: It is not.... there is only one statute covering hiring illegal aliens and I posted it... you were wrong on the penalties and have been trying to justify your error for the last week hoping I will not check the thread...not going to happen. Butch quote: What do you think I am talking about... but the civil penalties...damn give it up...you were wrong big deal...I am quoting the statute. You keep posting nonsense sites that like you don't know what you are talking about... read the statute... this is what counts nothing else. quote: No you have not... there is only one Federal law covering hiring aliens...and you know it... You have lost your validity with me and others... you are just an undisciplined trash mouth...I had hoped better of you. Not worth my breath anymore and I will leave you to your shame. Butch As you clearly show there are both civil and criminal penalities for hiring(harboring) illegal aliens. Civil penalities to hire those who enter legally and overstay their visas and criminal penalities for those who hire (harbor) those who enter illegally.

tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 10:55:12 AM)
The process of hiring and the process of harboring are not the same thing as explained in the law itself and the court case i provided. True to form, you can never admit when you are wrong.

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 1:13:20 PM)
quote: Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A): A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he: * assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or * encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way Please notice the bolded part. It is clear enough that even you can understand that the law says "acting as an employer is harboring"

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 1:24:36 PM)
Do you now understand that there are both civil and criminal penalities for hiring illegal aliens?

tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 1:44:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A): A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he: * assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or * encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way Please notice the bolded part. It is clear enough that even you can understand that the law says "acting as an employer is harboring" First, you do not show where you got the above. Second, here is the law for the part you keep citing. quote: § 1324. Bringing in and harboring certain aliens How Current is This? (a) Criminal penalties (1) (A) Any person who— (i) knowing that a person is an alien, brings to or attempts to bring to the United States in any manner whatsoever such person at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Commissioner, regardless of whether such alien has received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States and regardless of any future official action which may be taken with respect to such alien; notice the knowing part as well as bringing them in. This is the actual law,, not someone's interpretation. quote: (ii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, transports, or moves or attempts to transport or move such alien within the United States by means of transportation or otherwise, in furtherance of such violation of law; again, knowing or reckless disregard and that the employer must have moved or transported the illegal. quote: (iii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation; again, that pesky part about knowing... and now its sheilding, concealing or harboring as well quote: (iv) encourages or induces an alien to come to, enter, or reside in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such coming to, entry, or residence is or will be in violation of law; or again, that knowing part quote: (v) (I) engages in any conspiracy to commit any of the preceding acts, or (II) aids or abets the commission of any of the preceding acts, Then it goes on to list the penalties. All i have been saying all along is that in order to give the kind of penalties you are insisting upon, there has to be knowledge proven along with the intent to harbor or conceal. An illegal who shows up to work with a SS number and an ID isnt enough to prove an employer knew they were illegal.

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 3:07:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A): A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he: * assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or * encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way Please notice the bolded part. It is clear enough that even you can understand that the law says "acting as an employer is harboring" First, you do not show where you got the above. Second, here is the law for the part you keep citing. quote: § 1324. Bringing in and harboring certain aliens How Current is This? (a) Criminal penalties (1) (A) Any person who— (i) knowing that a person is an alien, brings to or attempts to bring to the United States in any manner whatsoever such person at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Commissioner, regardless of whether such alien has received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States and regardless of any future official action which may be taken with respect to such alien; notice the knowing part as well as bringing them in. This is the actual law,, not someone's interpretation. quote: (ii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, transports, or moves or attempts to transport or move such alien within the United States by means of transportation or otherwise, in furtherance of such violation of law; again, knowing or reckless disregard and that the employer must have moved or transported the illegal. quote: (iii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation; again, that pesky part about knowing... and now its sheilding, concealing or harboring as well quote: (iv) encourages or induces an alien to come to, enter, or reside in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such coming to, entry, or residence is or will be in violation of law; or again, that knowing part quote: (v) (I) engages in any conspiracy to commit any of the preceding acts, or (II) aids or abets the commission of any of the preceding acts, Then it goes on to list the penalties. All i have been saying all along is that in order to give the kind of penalties you are insisting upon, there has to be knowledge proven along with the intent to harbor or conceal. An illegal who shows up to work with a SS number and an ID isnt enough to prove an employer knew they were illegal. When the person shows up for work with a ss number and an id the employer is required to submit this information to the ss office which will come back and tell him that the data does not match. The employer has ten days to get his paperwork in order or he is in violation and this is (3) Prima facie evidence in determinations of violations In determining whether a violation of subsection (a) of this section has occurred, any of the following shall be prima facie evidence that an alien involved in the alleged violation had not received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States or that such alien had come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law: (A) Records of any judicial or administrative proceeding in which that alien’s status was an issue and in which it was determined that the alien had not received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States or that such alien had come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law. But then you already knew this because it is in the law you are qouting. We are discussing the penalities for people who know that they are breaking the law by hiring illegal aliens and you are playing lawyer with a plethora of "what ifs". The law gives the employer ample opportunity to determine the legal status of their employees. When those opportunities are ignored the employer is engaged in criminal activity which has both civil and criminal penalities. It strikes me that you and butch are more interested in arguing with me and not interested at all in discussion of the facts or what the penalities are for this criminal behaviour.

tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 3:44:09 PM)
Learn how to quote, thompson. im tired of trying to pick out your theories among quoted material. you are wrong. the law proves you are wrong. enough.

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/20/2010 6:15:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Learn how to quote, thompson. im tired of trying to pick out your theories among quoted material. you are wrong. the law proves you are wrong. enough. For 8 pages you have had no problem understanding what I have said but now that you have run out of bullshit you want to whine about my posting technique. The law proves only that the limits of the fines imposed for hiring illegal aliens maxes out at a higher level than I had originally stated not lower. The law shows that there are both civil and criminal penalities which is what I said. The law if enforced would end illegal immigration across our borders. The law if enforced would end legal visa holders overstaying their visas. Yet somehow you feel that the law you have posted somehow is different than that.

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