RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/30/2010 2:08:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx




Learn to read



Not good enough...just show me in any of the links you provided where there is a $10,000 fine first offense and 5 years in the slammers for immigration violations and penalties.

It is simple just do it...or have someone else who read your links post it...

Its ok to be wrong now and then...but not ok to call people names then be wrong or lying yourself...stand up and be a man...if you can.

Butch

Even finding evidence of somebody who's been sent down or had their business seized for employing illegals would be a start. (And no, that Californian restauranteur doesn't count until his case has finished.)




flcouple2009 -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/30/2010 4:42:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Is it your position that you would rather hire illegal aliens instead of citizens?


I think the position we had was we were interested in people who would actually show up and work.


No your position is that you are willing to commit a federal felony to save a few dollars...spin that how you choose.


You really have enjoyed making a fool of yourself on this thread haven't you.

You and Merc both immediately made the leap from Mexican to illegal.  Find where I said they were illegals?  I know some of them had green cards.  Did all of them, I don't know.  Honestly I don't care.  They showed up on time and did their work that's all I cared about.

They never would have been on the job site if the American workers who complain  about losing their jobs had actually showed up and worked. 

Merc is worried about them being exploited and you think everyone is saving money by hiring them.  We saved money because we payed a flat rate per person per hour to their boss.  The reason we saved money?  We paid neither workman's comp or payroll taxes on those workers.  Their boss paid those cost.  We know he did because like every other sub he provided those documents to the office who verified them.

We had another crew in before them.  They got fired in the middle of the day.  Much like you when the Mexicans were hired they made noise about how they lost their jobs to the Mexicans because the Mexicans would do the work so cheap.  There were several flaws in the thought.  One being as a sub the Mexican crew and American crew were paid the exact same amount per person per hour.  Two the guys all made pretty much the same per hour.  I know everyone has this myth stuck in their head about how Mexicans do everything for $5 an hour.  Third, their being fired had more to do with two 25' tall by 160' long firewalls that they screwed up so badly we had to rebuild,  that and the days they just never showed up.  Their boss wasn't happy when he got the cost for rebuilding those walls deducted from his final check.

You aren't taking a job from someone who won't show up to work.








tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (6/30/2010 9:24:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

quote:

Would you like to show us just where you got that moronic idea?
You do not live on the reservation.
When you visit the reservation you are exempt in some instances from a very few and specific aspects...would you care to enumerate those?


Are you suggesting the new health law doesnt allow Native Americans to opt out of the mandate?

No, if you could read, I ask you to provide a list of the execpetions.


That the IRS doesnty provide certain, though limited, exemptions to the same group?
That some states allow tax exemption status to native americans under certain conditions?

You clearly do not know what they are or you would have cited them.
/quote]


I do know. Problem is, you dont. As usual.



Let's see, you claim something is a fact but are unable or unwilling to validate it...as usual.


I stated something as fact. You said i was wrong. Prove me wrong, boy. I even gave you the items i referred too. Now, come on, be a good boy and do your homework or you wont get any milk and cookies.




tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/1/2010 10:55:23 AM)

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ORIGINAL: thompsonxquote:
quote:


No...your heritage like mine is believed to begin in the olduvai gorge in africa.


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This is incorrect.

quote:



In 1931, Leakey organised an expedition to the Gorge with Reck, and found stone tools within a few hours of arriving at the gorge.
In further excarvations, Leakey and his wife Mary found and described many stone tools and fossil animals, but found no significant hominid ("human-like") fossils until 1959, when Mary Leakey discovered the first skull of "Zinjanthropus".

Now renamed Australopithecus boisei, this creature had a massive skull with huge teeth that suggested a diet of coarse vegetable food, and lived 1.75 million years ago. In 1976 Mary Leakey discovered a fossil hominid and animal tracks at Laetoli, a site twice as ancient as anything at Olduvai.


Do you just open your mouth to change feet.
Laetoli is in close proximity to the olduvai gorge.



Even the article i cited indicated the difference between the two. Close... but no cigar.



Your article indicates that the two sites are about twenty miles apart...is that the crux of your arguement?
Don't you find it difficult to talk with both feet in your mouth?







Had to fix your quotes before i could continue. Sometimes your posts are extremely hard to follow when you fail to use them correctly.

My point was, and without the feet between my lips (they have far better uses than on feet... oh, but you may not understand that... oh well) that the "cradle of mankind" was believed and reported to be in one place... then another crops up, making science rethink their position.

When someone has absolute proof as to the beginning of mankind, then come back to me with that proof. For now, even the experts are proving themselves wrong.

As far as the cradle of mankind being in one spot, im not buying it. Sorry. Again, the experts are often wrong more than right, and there are lots of places on this globe to search.

You made a claim it was in one spot. The experts say.. nope.. not true.. its in another spot. 10 years from now, it will be in another. 20 feet can make all the difference in the world when it comes to land disputes, property lines, even immigration laws. Dont discount that space based upon something of this magnitude. I guarentee you scientists do not discount it.




Vendaval -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/1/2010 4:07:00 PM)


This does not surprise me at all. The idea of a "work ethic" seems to be missing in large part today. I see the same attitude at my jobs all the time. People who would rather stand around and gossip and do nothing and who think cleaning up after themselves or taking out the trash is somehow beneath them.



quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

We tried for months to hire framers and sheet rock workers.  It was hard enough to get someone who wanted the job but when you finally did they generally lasted about a week.  The complaints they had ranged from, "You people work to many hours" (we were only working 48 hrs, 10 hours Mon-Thurs and 8 hours OT on Fri), you work to hard, and you want to much work done.






thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/1/2010 5:58:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Is it your position that you would rather hire illegal aliens instead of citizens?


I think the position we had was we were interested in people who would actually show up and work.


No your position is that you are willing to commit a federal felony to save a few dollars...spin that how you choose.


You really have enjoyed making a fool of yourself on this thread haven't you.

You and Merc both immediately made the leap from Mexican to illegal.  Find where I said they were illegals?  I know some of them had green cards.  Did all of them, I don't know.  Honestly I don't care.  They showed up on time and did their work that's all I cared about.

Not clever by half.
I ask you if you would rather hire illegals and you resdpond with you would rather hire those who show up...not actually saying you were hiring illegals but not denying it.
Further you state that you know that some were legal but did not know about all and did not care.
This is a pretty clear admission, by you, that you would hire illegals just to save a few dollars. If you pay a citizen a fair wage they will show up and give you value for your money.
It is pretty clear that your moral compass points directly to your wallet.













thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/1/2010 8:03:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



statement correct, 18 usc section 371 ...if you cannot or will not read the links provided that would be your problem.
You obviously like the taste of shoe leather.


quote:

18 usc section 371


Not going to work...this statute has nothing to do with immigration.

"Sec. 371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States"

You can't do it can you.... try the soft shoe maybe you will be better... Now again show me the statute.

I'm going to keep holding your feet to the fire until you admit you are wrong or you prove me wrong...or CM sends me the cease and desist...because you need a dose of your own medicine.

It is a simple request... show me the actual statute on immigration that shows a $10,000 fine the first offense and or 5 years in the slammer...and I will apologize.

Butch



Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)







kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/1/2010 9:11:07 PM)

quote:

Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)


Nope not good enough again... this statue is for transporting aliens to the US not hiring them... maybe the foxtrot...oh I know the samba AAAAAA

Come on take a few more days for bull shit I like to see you squirm. Do you really think you can throw anything up there and no one will read it? We're on to your bull.

I gota tell ya man I'm having a lot of fun with this.

Butch




flcouple2009 -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 7:17:57 AM)

Your funny,  thanks for the laughs.

Since you clipped the quote for the part you wanted, please explain to me since EVERYONE was making the exact same wages how was anyone saving any money no matter who was hired? 

I'm not trying to be cute.  I stand exactly by the statement I made.  We wanted to hire people who showed up and worked.  That seems to be as a hard a concept for you to grasp as it was for the people who didn't want to actually work.

We paid well, we had good benefits,  but the downside was you were actually expected to show up and work.  The other catch that kept making it difficult to find people,  mandatory drug test.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 8:16:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Here is how it works brain…I have a strawberry farm in Missouri lets say. In my area there may be a few unemployed people but not enough to harvest my crop in the required time. Of course people living full time in my area are looking for and or employed in professions that will provide income all year so they know a job with me is strictly temporary and will not provide for their family.

They cannot stop their work and harvest my crop so we need migrate workers.

BUT

Now my teen son has graduated school and is looking for a full time job. Not too many years ago if he did not want to continue his education he would have taken a roofing or landscape job…or maintenance at the local Walmart or McDonalds… Not great work but a living. Now however these businesses for the sake of profit no longer hire locals but illegal workers they can pay, often below minimum wage, without documentation, benefits and social security taxes.

If you don’t believe me go to most any apartment complex in your area and see who is cutting the grass…Or find a roofer at work and see who is nailing the shingles.

There is a problem...not their fault, they are just trying to provide for their families…but they ARE taking jobs from ours.


That problem always works its way around to us the consumer again cause we seemed to always want to trick ourselves. We say we don't want illegal but at the same time we want lower and lower prices at Walmart, Target, et al. In fact, we insist on it and they have some goober on the commercial how he is driving only in right hand turns so he can lower your price. Which with all the lower prices Walmart, Target, et al have to go looking elsewhere for labor and/or cheaper offshore products.........Which include no actual jobs for people in this country.
 
So, what we need to do to remedy the situation is stop believing in the lower price smiley face and go for products that might be a bit more expensive but are made here by American Workers. Keeping those dollars here whether it is cars or toothpaste will go a long way to create wealth here and again provide those jobs for kids in the summer.




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 8:31:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Your funny,  thanks for the laughs.

The laugh is that you have no problem hireing illegals.

Since you clipped the quote for the part you wanted, please explain to me since EVERYONE was making the exact same wages how was anyone saving any money no matter who was hired? 

The point is that you wanted to hire illegals instead of citizens. You pay substandard wages which, by your own admission, failed to garner for you quality workmen who were citizens.

I'm not trying to be cute.  I stand exactly by the statement I made.  We wanted to hire people who showed up and worked.  That seems to be as a hard a concept for you to grasp as it was for the people who didn't want to actually work.

You are dancing like a cockroach in a hot skillet. You wanted to hire premium quality labor for illegal workman wages. It is just that simple.

We paid well, we had good benefits, 

Not according to your statement that you went to a labor contractor for both crews, and your statement that you paid the labor contractor a flat rate for each man by the hour.






kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 8:56:29 AM)

I agree...except I don't think consumer price has much to do with it. When many companies took their manufacturing business overseas to cheaper labor, less stringent environmental rules and lower taxes they did not pass the savings along to consumers... they just took more profit.

This is the same with the roofer example... Just because they pay their workers less does not mean the price for a new roof will be less.

I am simplifying I know but I don't think I'm too far off the truth.

Butch




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 9:18:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)


Nope not good enough again... this statue is for transporting aliens to the US not hiring them... maybe the foxtrot...oh I know the samba AAAAAA

Come on take a few more days for bull shit I like to see you squirm. Do you really think you can throw anything up there and no one will read it? We're on to your bull.

I gota tell ya man I'm having a lot of fun with this.

Butch



It would appear that you have a real problem with both reading and comprehension.
This from the cited statute

The penalty for felony harboring is a fine and imprisonment for up to five years. The penalty for felony alien smuggling is a fine and up to ten years' imprisonment. Where the crime causes serious bodily injury or places the life of any person in jeopardy, the penalty is a fine and up to twenty years' imprisonment. If the criminal smuggling or harboring results in the death of any person, the penalty can include life imprisonment. Convictions for aiding, abetting, or conspiracy to commit alien smuggling or harboring, carry the same penalties. Courts can impose consecutive prison sentences for each alien smuggled or harbored. A court may order a convicted smuggler to pay restitution if the illegal alien smuggled qualifies as a victim under the Victim and Witness Protection Act. Conspiracy to commit crimes of sheltering, harboring, or employing illegal aliens is a separate federal offense punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 or five years' imprisonment.

Harboring is:

"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.



This from the 18usc section 371 that I previously cited for you
In summary, those activities which courts have held defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 371 affect the government in at least one of three ways:

They cheat the government out of money or property;
They interfere or obstruct legitimate Government activity; or
They make wrongful use of a governmental instrumentality.


This from the civil violations you referenced 274 statute:

(4) Cease and desist order with civil money penalty for hiring, recruiting, and referral
violations.-With respect to a violation of subsection (a)(1)(A) or (a)(2), the order under this
subsection-
(A) shall require the person or entity to cease and desist from such violations and to pay a
civil penalty in an amount of-
(i) not less than $250 and not more than $2,000 for each unauthorized alien with
respect to whom a violation of either such subsection occurred,
(ii) not less than $2,000 and not more than $5,000 for each such alien in the case of a
person or entity previously subject to one order under this paragraph, or
(iii) not less than $3,000 and not more than $10,000 for each such alien in the case of a
person or entity previously subject to more than one order under this paragraph

So it is clear from the cites I have provided for you that there are both civil and criminal penalities for hiring an illegal alien.
If the above is not clear enough for you I can only suggest that you try a remedial reading class.




flcouple2009 -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 10:12:17 AM)

Thanks I needed some laughs this morning.

Nice of you to pick out the pieces you wanted while ignoring the rest of the post.

Yes, we went to a sub for the work, ONLY after we couldn't hire enough people for which the jobs were there with good pay and benefits.  I know you don't want to hear any that because it goes against everything you want to believe.

Here's another example for you.

We have a friend who finishes drywall.  He is fast and very good except for one small thing.  His fine finishing skills are lacking.  He wants top dollar and much like you he whines loudly about how everyone is against him and only wants to hire illegals when he gets passed over.  The problem is every job that requires a top quality finish he will get passed over for.

He did some work for us when we did a full condo remodel.  He was in complete shock when after a certain point he thought he was finished, but it didn't pass for final product.  His comment was "That's good enough",  well sorry not for the level we work on.  We paid him off and did the fine finish work ourselves.

That's the point, there are a lot of people who complain about someone taking their job.  It is hard to have sympathy for them when they want to make top dollar for "That's good enough".






thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 11:03:43 AM)

It appears that your point is that there is no one except illegal aliens in your area with the skills needed. I call bullshit.




joether -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 11:23:13 AM)

thompsonx is a funny guy sometimes. Here's a quote of his above:

quote:


"This from the 18usc section 371 that I previously cited for you
In summary, those activities which courts have held defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 371 affect the government in at least one of three ways:

They cheat the government out of money or property;
They interfere or obstruct legitimate Government activity; or
They make wrongful use of a governmental instrumentality."


Well crap, the Republicans are guilty as sin, on all three of these charges. Screw the illegal aliens, lets fine and jail the Republicans! We KNOW, they have millions of dollars to pay for stuff, given their 'war chests' for elections!

But seriously, if your calling for tighter rules and laws, to keep illegal immigrants from working in the USA; it could be argued, your for socialism in the workplace. Last I checked, you conservatives were HEAVILY against 'Socialized Medicine'. Heck, your against anything, having anything to do with Socialism. Unless it relates to police, fire, the US Military, ICE, FBI, CIA, NSA, etc...

When it comes to illegal immigrants, working and living in the USA, it is a real paradox how the conservative's arguement remains in tact, in light of their stance on creating rules and regulations (with regulators to over see, said regulations), in every industry. Most conservatives I've come across, are against the federal minimeum wage, or the actions of the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB). But against, illegal immigrants making below what American workers make.

I'm all for illegal immigrants making the same pay as American workers. Netting the same benefits (and paying taxes to Uncle Sam), the same as any US worker. Immigration reform is a totally different beast to wrestle, and not a topic for this thread!





thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 11:43:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

thompsonx is a funny guy sometimes. Here's a quote of his above:

quote:


"This from the 18usc section 371 that I previously cited for you
In summary, those activities which courts have held defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 371 affect the government in at least one of three ways:

They cheat the government out of money or property;
They interfere or obstruct legitimate Government activity; or
They make wrongful use of a governmental instrumentality."


Well crap, the Republicans are guilty as sin, on all three of these charges. Screw the illegal aliens, lets fine and jail the Republicans! We KNOW, they have millions of dollars to pay for stuff, given their 'war chests' for elections!

But seriously, if your calling for tighter rules and laws, to keep illegal immigrants from working in the USA; it could be argued, your for socialism in the workplace. Last I checked, you conservatives were HEAVILY against 'Socialized Medicine'. Heck, your against anything, having anything to do with Socialism. Unless it relates to police, fire, the US Military, ICE, FBI, CIA, NSA, etc...

You do not seem to have a very firm grasp of the english language. I am not calling for more laws I am simply pointing out that there are sufficient laws on the books to eliminate illegal immigration if they were enforced.
If you were to read any of my posts concerning socialized medicine you would know that I am in favor of it.


When it comes to illegal immigrants, working and living in the USA, it is a real paradox how the conservative's arguement remains in tact, in light of their stance on creating rules and regulations (with regulators to over see, said regulations), in every industry. Most conservatives I've come across, are against the federal minimeum wage, or the actions of the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB). But against, illegal immigrants making below what American workers make.

Once again you seem to have read nothing of what I have posted. I have argued in favor of doubling or tripling the minimum wage. I am not arguing that illegal aliens be paid more I am stating how they could be removed from my country with the least expense to the taxpayer.

I'm all for illegal immigrants making the same pay as American workers. Netting the same benefits (and paying taxes to Uncle Sam), the same as any US worker. Immigration reform is a totally different beast to wrestle, and not a topic for this thread!

Once again I am not discussing immigration reform I am showing how undocumented workers could be eliminated from the work force with the least expense to the tax payer







flcouple2009 -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 12:09:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

It appears that your point is that there is no one except illegal aliens in your area with the skills needed. I call bullshit.


There are a lot of people across the country who do lousy work and complain when other people get the job. 

It's a constant theme from the older guys.  They talk constantly about the lack of younger people to work the trades.  There aren't enough skilled people.  All of the younger people want computer jobs and no one wants to come out here and work.

There has been a void in a lot of places and other people have stepped in to fill it.




kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 12:31:02 PM)

Still not right...and you know it... we are talking and have always been talking about penalties for hiring illegal aliens... Not harboring them…not transporting them but penalties for the first offense for hiring.

None of your misdirection will work...I will not allow you to do it… you are mine.

Butch




thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 12:32:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

It appears that your point is that there is no one except illegal aliens in your area with the skills needed. I call bullshit.


There are a lot of people across the country who do lousy work and complain when other people get the job. 

It's a constant theme from the older guys.  They talk constantly about the lack of younger people to work the trades.  There aren't enough skilled people.  All of the younger people want computer jobs and no one wants to come out here and work.

There has been a void in a lot of places and other people have stepped in to fill it.



bullshit




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