RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs

RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

flcouple2009 -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 1:40:15 PM)
And the last time you were hiring people was?

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/2/2010 2:48:10 PM)
I have been retired for some time but last week I was present on a remodel in huntington beach ca. (The job is putting a second story onto a view home across the bolsa chica wetlands from the pacific ocean. The total cost of the job is approaching one million dollars.) The general on this job is an old friend of mine and he had invited me over to see some of the inovations that he was using in this remodle. American citizens hanging drywall were working piece work and dragging down a little over $30 an hour plus benifits. Tapers working to level five are by the hour at $36 plus benifits. Plumbers and electricians are at scale and the clean up boys were being paid $20. It is all on the books with benifits and workmans comp and all taxes are being paid. Not everyone hires illegal aliens just to make a few bux.

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/5/2010 8:04:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Still not right...and you know it... we are talking and have always been talking about penalties for hiring illegal aliens... Not harboring them…not transporting them but penalties for the first offense for hiring. None of your misdirection will work...I will not allow you to do it… you are mine. Butch quote: Harboring is: "Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both." Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A): A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he: * assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or * encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or The statute is pretty clear as to the fact that harboring includes acting as an employer. All that remains is for you to take your feet out of your mouth and aplolgize as you said you would.

kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/5/2010 8:21:17 AM)
It is not.... there is only one statute covering hiring illegal aliens and I posted it... you were wrong on the penalties and have been trying to justify your error for the last week hoping I will not check the thread...not going to happen. Butch

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/5/2010 9:03:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It is not.... there is only one statute covering hiring illegal aliens and I posted it... you were wrong on the penalties and have been trying to justify your error for the last week hoping I will not check the thread...not going to happen. Butch If you refuse to read and comprehend the law there is little I can do for you. For those who choose to bathe in ignorance there us no soap. quote: : Harboring is: "Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both." Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A): A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he: * assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or * encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employeror agent for an employer in any way You do notice the bolded part...That is the relevant phrase in 274. What exactly is it that you do not understand. Oh yeah...the part that says you have your head up your ass and refuse to notice.

kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/5/2010 10:05:26 AM)
You are full of crap and you know it...Show me the statute on hiring illegal aliens not harboring or transporting them...I posted it for you...want some help? It is a simple thing... but as we know you can't do it because you exaggerated and did not know the law until I showed you. There are all manner of laws in this country and each one covers a particular crime and none other…such is the case with hiring aliens. If you can’t get your laws straight then you should just be quiet...or look like a fool. Which will you do shut up, like a good little boy, or be a fool? Butch

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/5/2010 10:16:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub You are full of crap and you know it...Show me the statute on hiring illegal aliens not harboring or transporting them...I posted it for you...want some help? It is a simple thing... but as we know you can't do it because you exaggerated and did not know the law until I showed you. There are all manner of laws in this country and each one covers a particular crime and none other…such is the case with hiring aliens. If you can’t get your laws straight then you should just be quiet...or look like a fool. Which will you do shut up, like a good little boy, or be a fool? Butch I have posted the law and all of the appropriate links to valildate it. If you choose to ignore it then that is really your problem and none of mine. You said you would appologize when I showed you to be wrong. I have and you continue to deny what is clearly written in plane english. Please do try to have a nice day.

kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/5/2010 1:47:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx I have posted the law and all of the appropriate links to valildate it. If you choose to ignore it then that is really your problem and none of mine. You said you would appologize when I showed you to be wrong. I have and you continue to deny what is clearly written in plane english. Please do try to have a nice day. No you have not... there is only one Federal law covering hiring aliens...and you know it... You have lost your validity with me and others... you are just an undisciplined trash mouth...I had hoped better of you. Not worth my breath anymore and I will leave you to your shame. Butch

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/6/2010 5:36:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx I have posted the law and all of the appropriate links to valildate it. If you choose to ignore it then that is really your problem and none of mine. You said you would appologize when I showed you to be wrong. I have and you continue to deny what is clearly written in plane english. Please do try to have a nice day. No you have not... there is only one Federal law covering hiring aliens...and you know it... You have lost your validity with me and others... you are just an undisciplined trash mouth...I had hoped better of you. Not worth my breath anymore and I will leave you to your shame. Butch I have posted the law and all of the appropriate links to valildate it. If you choose to ignore it then that is really your problem and none of mine. You said you would appologize when I showed you to be wrong. I have and you continue to deny what is clearly written in plane english. Please do try to have a nice day.

kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/6/2010 8:00:03 PM)
Your not going to get away with false information..below is the law...the only law that applies to unlawful employment of aliens. There is no $10,000 fine for first offenses or 5 years in thre slammer as you claimed. I'll not post again because you are not worth it...people know you now INA: ACT 274A - UNLAWFUL EMPLOYMENT OF ALIENS Butch

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 3:07:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Your not going to get away with false information..below is the law...the only law that applies to unlawful employment of aliens. There is no $10,000 fine for first offenses or 5 years in thre slammer as you claimed. I'll not post again because you are not worth it...people know you now You keep saying you are going to shut up but so far your mouth seems to be hinged in the middle and flapping at both ends. You were wrong and have been shown, by the cites I have posted, to be wrong and yet you persist in your mindless denial of that which is clearly presented to you. INA: ACT 274A - UNLAWFUL EMPLOYMENT OF ALIENS Here you say that 1324 is the only law concerning hiring of illegal aliens. quote: Why don't you read... TITLE 8, CHAPTER 12, SUBCHAPTER II, Part VIII, Sec. 1324a.... the REAL law not one you made up.. Then of course there is the conspiracy statute which I also cited. As should be clear to you by now there are both civil and criminal penalities for hiring an illegal allien. There are also several statutes which concern themselves with the hiring of illegal aliens and the law is quite clear that prosecution under all of the governing statutes is appropriate and that the sentences can be consecutive and compilable. I have cited them for you and you can't seem to pick which one you want to be "the" one. First it is this one then it is that one and then it is civil and now you think maybe there might also be a criminal felony involved also Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 4:22:52 PM)
An actual case with penaltiues defined.... quote: Maria Teresa Lamayo Ngo signed a plea agreement on April 13, 2009 while her husband, Wilfredo Tiongco Ngo, signed a plea agreement on April 28, 2009. Their co-accused, Gicela Sarabia, 43, has not yet copped a plea. The Ngo couple were charged with a four-count indictment returned in August last year, charging them with inducing aliens to reside in the United States; knowingly employing illegal aliens; knowingly harboring illegal aliens; and counseling persons to engage in marriage fraud. Sarabia was charged with inducing aliens to reside in the U.S. and knowingly hiring illegal aliens. A-Plus Senior Planning Services is a private health care agency that provides basic care to the elderly in assisted-living facilities in Orange County since January 2005. It has 200 employees, half of them are said to be undocumented. It has 65 employees, 20 with non-immigrant visas, with denied political asylum, engaged in fraudulent sham marriage or had been previously ordered deported. The agency was originally named Better Care Solutions. When the company was audited, it changed its name to A-Plus Senior Planning Services. When they were arraigned by US Magistrate Judge Marc L. Goldman last August 25, 2008, the Ngo's and Sarabia pleaded not guilty of the charges against them. In the 13-page plea agreement, for the Ngo couple, in order for them to plead guilty of count one for violation of “Title 8, U.S. Code, Sec. 1324 (a) (1) (A) (iv), “the following must be true: 1) there was an alien; 2) defendant encouraged or induced that alien to come to, enter, or reside in the United States in violation of law; and 3) defendant knew or was in reckless disregard of the fact that that alien’s coming to, entry into, or residence in the United States would be a violation of the law.” The maximum sentence that the court imposes for violation of Title 8 for each “alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs, is: five years imprisonment; three-year period of supervised release; a fine of $250,000 or twice the gross gain or gross loss resulting from the offense, whichever is the greatest; and mandatory special assessment of $100." The agreement said because the violation involves 43 aliens, the couple is going to be sentenced to 215 years imprisonment; three year supervised release; a fine of $10,750,000 or twice the gross gain or gross loss resulting from the offense, whichever is greatest; and a mandatory special assessment of $4,300. The agreement was agreed and accepted by Mieke I. Biesheuvel, Assistant U.S. Attorney on behalf of Thomas P. O’Brien, U.S. Attorney for the Central District of California, and Robert A. Van Hoy, counsel for defendant Maria Teresa Lamayo Ngo, and Mark W. Fredrick, counsel for Wilfredo Tiongco Ngo. Sarabia was said to have overstayed her US as non-immigrant visa. While the Ngo’s reportedly entered into sham marriages. The alleged illegal activity of A-Plus, formerly knownas Better Care Solutions, was found out when two Filipino caregivers filed unemployment claims in July and October of 2006 with the California Employment Development Division. http://www.filipinoexpress.com/23/22_news.html

kdsub -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 4:53:40 PM)
Tazzygirl he is just trying to cloud the picture... this law is for harboring and transporting aliens... NOT for unlawfully employing them... these are two different laws for different crimes. This is not for the roofer or landscaper who hires an illegal alien...I've pointed that out over and over. This is a law for the people who smuggle them over the border or pay for someone else to do it. Damn just look up the laws and read them… he is depending on us not doing it. Butch

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 5:04:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Tazzygirl he is just trying to cloud the picture... this law is for harboring and transporting aliens... NOT for unlawfully employing them... these are two different laws for different crimes. This is not for the roofer or landscaper who hires an illegal alien...I've pointed that out over and over. This is a law for the people who smuggle them over the border or pay for someone else to do it. Damn just look up the laws and read them… he is depending on us not doing it. Butch quote: by acting as employeror agent for an employer in any way what part of "by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way" dont you understand? He posted the law, apparently you are the one who doesnt want to read it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 5:09:12 PM)
willbe, butch is right. � 1324. Bringing in and harboring certain aliens That is the law my article was discussing. This link refers strictly to the unlawful employment issue alone. � 1324a. Unlawful employment of aliens (4) Cease and desist order with civil money penalty for hiring, recruiting, and referral violations With respect to a violation of subsection (a)(1)(A) or (a)(2) of this section, the order under this subsection— (A) shall require the person or entity to cease and desist from such violations and to pay a civil penalty in an amount of— (i) not less than $250 and not more than $2,000 for each unauthorized alien with respect to whom a violation of either such subsection occurred, (ii) not less than $2,000 and not more than $5,000 for each such alien in the case of a person or entity previously subject to one order under this paragraph, or (iii) not less than $3,000 and not more than $10,000 for each such alien in the case of a person or entity previously subject to more than one order under this paragraph; and (B) may require the person or entity— (i) to comply with the requirements of subsection (b) of this section (or subsection (d) of this section if applicable) with respect to individuals hired (or recruited or referred for employment for a fee) during a period of up to three years, and (ii) to take such other remedial action as is appropriate. In applying this subsection in the case of a person or entity composed of distinct, physically separate subdivisions each of which provides separately for the hiring, recruiting, or referring for employment, without reference to the practices of, and not under the control of or common control with, another subdivision, each such subdivision shall be considered a separate person or entity. (5) Order for civil money penalty for paperwork violations With respect to a violation of subsection (a)(1)(B) of this section, the order under this subsection shall require the person or entity to pay a civil penalty in an amount of not less than $100 and not more than $1,000 for each individual with respect to whom such violation occurred. In determining the amount of the penalty, due consideration shall be given to the size of the business of the employer being charged, the good faith of the employer, the seriousness of the violation, whether or not the individual was an unauthorized alien, and the history of previous violations. (f) Criminal penalties and injunctions for pattern or practice violations (1) Criminal penalty Any person or entity which engages in a pattern or practice of violations of subsection (a)(1)(A) or (a)(2) of this section shall be fined not more than $3,000 for each unauthorized alien with respect to whom such a violation occurs, imprisoned for not more than six months for the entire pattern or practice, or both, notwithstanding the provisions of any other Federal law relating to fine levels. (2) Enjoining of pattern or practice violations Whenever the Attorney General has reasonable cause to believe that a person or entity is engaged in a pattern or practice of employment, recruitment, or referral in violation of paragraph (1)(A) or (2) of subsection (a) of this section, the Attorney General may bring a civil action in the appropriate district court of the United States requesting such relief, including a permanent or temporary injunction, restraining order, or other order against the person or entity, as the Attorney General deems necessary (g) Prohibition of indemnity bonds (1) Prohibition It is unlawful for a person or other entity, in the hiring, recruiting, or referring for employment of any individual, to require the individual to post a bond or security, to pay or agree to pay an amount, or otherwise to provide a financial guarantee or indemnity, against any potential liability arising under this section relating to such hiring, recruiting, or referring of the individual. (2) Civil penalty Any person or entity which is determined, after notice and opportunity for an administrative hearing under subsection (e) of this section, to have violated paragraph (1) shall be subject to a civil penalty of $1,000 for each violation and to an administrative order requiring the return of any amounts received in violation of such paragraph to the employee or, if the employee cannot be located, to the general fund of the Treasury.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 5:13:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl willbe, butch is right. � 1324. Bringing in and harboring certain aliens That is the law my article was discussing. I havent read the whole thread. If he is claiming that there is no law prohibiting hiring illegal aliens, he's wrong.

tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 5:19:04 PM)
The debate is over the penalties themselves, willbe.

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 6:26:39 PM)
quote: : tazzygirl The agreement said because the violation involves 43 aliens, the couple is going to be sentenced to 215 years imprisonment; three year supervised release; a fine of $10,750,000 or twice the gross gain or gross loss resulting from the offense, whichever is greatest; and a mandatory special assessment of $4,300. It appears that you are saying that I am right tazz...$10,750,000/43=$250,000 fine for each illegal alien and 215 years/43= 5 years for each illegal alien

tazzygirl -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 6:32:46 PM)
That was for bringing them to the US, thompson. Butch's argument is that isnt just for hiring them. quote: In the 13-page plea agreement, for the Ngo couple, in order for them to plead guilty of count one for violation of “Title 8, U.S. Code, Sec. 1324 (a) (1) (A) (iv), “the following must be true: 1) there was an alien; 2) defendant encouraged or induced that alien to come to, enter, or reside in the United States in violation of law; and 3) defendant knew or was in reckless disregard of the fact that that alien’s coming to, entry into, or residence in the United States would be a violation of the law.”

thompsonx -> RE: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (7/7/2010 6:40:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Tazzygirl he is just trying to cloud the picture... this law is for harboring and transporting aliens... NOT for unlawfully employing them... these are two different laws for different crimes. This is not for the roofer or landscaper who hires an illegal alien...I've pointed that out over and over. This is a law for the people who smuggle them over the border or pay for someone else to do it. Damn just look up the laws and read them… he is depending on us not doing it. Butch If you would just read the law it says quit clearly that harboring is the same as employing. Have you finally agreed that there is more than one law being broken? Have you finally agreed that there are both civil and criminal sanctions against the employer of illegal aliens? You will note that the case that tazz cites the fine is considerabley more than $10,000 per illegal. Do you think it might be because of the 18 USCS 371...which says: In summary, those activities which courts have held defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 371 affect the government in at least one of three ways: They cheat the government out of money or property; They interfere or obstruct legitimate Government activity; or They make wrongful use of a governmental instrumentality. [cited in USAM 9-42.001] It would strike me that this was the law used to get the quarter million dollar fine for each of the illegals since the other two laws I cited don't go anywhere near that, quarter millilon dollar per illegal, amount.

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875