RE: When does helping, turn into enabling?

RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (Full Version)

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LadyCimarron -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:02:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron No one wants to talk about that either. Because a LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC President was the only leader we have had with the gumption to actually do something about welfare reform. The Bushes preached about it but didn't touch it. Today people cannot live on welfare for life, there is a limit and during that time you either work or go to job training so you CAN work. That is how it works here and I am sure most other states. They can if they work hard at beating the system. I know a few people who, if they put the effort into working that they put in to making trips to different places to get something from nothing, well, I bet they could rule the world. Hopefully, the commas in that long ass sentence made it understandable.... There are scammers and crooks in every system (including CM) that doesn't mean that everyone or even the majority of people who use that system are crooks.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:16:47 PM)
I did not say all or the majority scam the system. I am speaking of people I know personally. And I know I can not change them. I can feed their kids, even when they forget or flat out refuse to send lunch money. Sme I have to beg to get them to come in and fill out a form that takes 2 minutes.I can give the kids hugs and let them leave snot on my shoulders when they come off the bus crying. But it still makes me sick because, like I said, if these particular parents would work as hard at making a living as they do on getting something for nothing, they could rule the world. edited cause I just cant effin type...

LadyCimarron -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:20:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub I did not say all or the majority scam the system. I am speaking of people I know personally. And I know I can not change them. I can feed their kids, even when they forget or flat out refuse to send lunch money, and some I have to beg to get them to come in and fill out a form that takes 2 minutes.and give the kids hugs and let them leave snot on my shoulders when they come off the bus crying. But it still makes me sick because, like I said, if these particular parents would work as hard at making a living as they do on getting something for nothing, they could rule the world. I agree and I have seen these types too. I would have no problem cutting them off except that they ARE parents and if they starve, the kids starve.

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:24:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 While we may be enabling the parents, we are feeding the children (in theory at least). And what are they learning about how life works? You're right let's just let millions of innocent children die because they're parents are out of work. Come on people, yes the system is flawed. No, bitching doesn't fix it. Unless you can come up with a viable system that does work, saying the system is broken is meaningless.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:25:05 PM)
I hear ya. Some folks are alive only because it is illegal to kill em. Course, I would bet somewhere, someone has said that about me too, so I guess I am glad that killing thing is illegal.. I guess it all works out in the end some how.

Owner59 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:30:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 While we may be enabling the parents, we are feeding the children (in theory at least). And what are they learning about how life works? You're right let's just let millions of innocent children die because they're parents are out of work. Come on people, yes the system is flawed. No, bitching doesn't fix it. Unless you can come up with a viable system that does work, saying the system is broken is meaningless. Look hon,freedom requires a few broken eggs.......[8\|] Get w/ the program......[8D]

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:33:17 PM)
Don't call me hon. There's nothing about any solution you ever propose that isn't totally delusional. It's like everything you type just takes up space for no apparent reason.

Owner59 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:39:35 PM)
Notice the emocons? They mean sarcasm. Did you notice I was agreeing with you? Nevermind.....no matter....[:D]

DarwinsLilHelper -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:40:13 PM)
You see...Everyones so caught up in the "Lets do it for the poor suffering children " Mantra of Liberalism...That they've overlooked the obvious answer. Stop having children we can neither care for, feed or properly educate. Just that simple. Stop government financing of the birth welfare babies. Mandatory sterilization in order to receive welfare after the first child. No Sterilization...No WIC, TANF or Foodstamps.

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:42:09 PM)
Unfortunately we have this little constitution thing....you might have read about it? It says that issue is none of the goverment's business.

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:43:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Unfortunately we have this little constitution thing....you might have read about it? It says that issue is none of the goverment's business. When the government starts paying for something it becomes their business.

LadyCimarron -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:47:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarwinsLilHelper You see...Everyones so caught up in the "Lets do it for the poor suffering children " Mantra of Liberalism...That they've overlooked the obvious answer. Stop having children we can neither care for, feed or properly educate. Just that simple. Stop government financing of the birth welfare babies. Mandatory sterilization in order to receive welfare after the first child. No Sterilization...No WIC, TANF or Foodstamps. HEIL HITLER!!! [8\|] That would be an act of genocide. Also it would assume that the people in question would never get off aid and get to a point in their life where they might want children. I would like to point out that most conservatives who are against welfare are also against abortion. Why don't they just quit fighting abortion? Abortion would be a lot better than just the genocidal annihilation of the lower class that you are suggesting. BTW- what do you do when they don't get sterilized and do indeed bring children into the world? No one wants to man up and have the balls to say they should let them starve but that is what you are implying isn't it?

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:49:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Unfortunately we have this little constitution thing....you might have read about it? It says that issue is none of the goverment's business. When the government starts paying for something it becomes their business. You might have missed this in civics class. Let me explain it to you simply. The Constitution IS the government. Your statement is completely nonsensical.

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:51:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 You might have missed this in civics class. Let me explain it to simply. The Constitution IS the government. Your statement is completely nonsensical. Reworded then - when the lawmakers start allotting funds to something, the lawmakers decide what the requirements for receiving those funds are.

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:52:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 You might have missed this in civics class. Let me explain it to simply. The Constitution IS the government. Your statement is completely nonsensical. Reworded then - when the lawmakers start allotting funds to something, the lawmakers decide what the requirements for receiving those funds are. Wrong. Prohibitions against marriage or procreation are unconstitutional. There's no rewording that gets around that.

Owner59 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:53:08 PM)
"When the government starts paying for something it becomes their business." Well,collectively we`ve decided that the welfare of UMs trumps most any other consideration. So the sticky wicket is how to make rules that do the most good w/ the least harm.IMO,what conservatives offer as solutions are to extreme. Talk to a conservative about the trillions wasted while we provide for our military.Some will argue(and with some credibility)that the massive and wholesale waste that goes on is a necessary evil that we must have, in order to provide our military with the best and enough of the best. I say the welfare abuse is a necessary evil that goes along with making sure UM`s are provided for.

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 6:58:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Wrong. Prohibitions against marriage or procreation are unconstitutional. There's no rewording that gets around that. Which article is this in and why does it not apply to siblings who wish to do these things?

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 7:00:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron quote: ORIGINAL: DarwinsLilHelper You see...Everyones so caught up in the "Lets do it for the poor suffering children " Mantra of Liberalism...That they've overlooked the obvious answer. Stop having children we can neither care for, feed or properly educate. Just that simple. Stop government financing of the birth welfare babies. Mandatory sterilization in order to receive welfare after the first child. No Sterilization...No WIC, TANF or Foodstamps. HEIL HITLER!!! [8\|] That would be an act of genocide. Also it would assume that the people in question would never get off aid and get to a point in their life where they might want children. I would like to point out that most conservatives who are against welfare are also against abortion. Why don't they just quit fighting abortion? Abortion would be a lot better than just the genocidal annihilation of the lower class that you are suggesting. BTW- what do you do when they don't get sterilized and do indeed bring children into the world? No one wants to man up and have the balls to say they should let them starve but that is what you are implying isn't it? Agreed. Unfortunately, however, it isn't just the lower class or unskilled people. Tons of new families are signing up for aid every day. Parents that had jobs but now cannot find work. People's perceptions that the majority of people on welfare are lazy people having kids to get money is just really ridiculously untrue. Every other program that we underfund, such as the absolutely abhorrent state of mental health treatment, ends up in the welfare system. The way to get these people off the dole is to spend more money training them, helping them, getting them treatment...etc. We don't do that, we toss them in a pot and say they suck and think that's going to work.

LadyCimarron -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 7:12:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Agreed. Unfortunately, however, it isn't just the lower class or unskilled people. Tons of new families are signing up for aid every day. Parents that had jobs but now cannot find work. People's perceptions that the majority of people on welfare are lazy people having kids to get money is just really ridiculously untrue. Every other program that we underfund, such as the absolutely abhorrent state of mental health treatment, ends up in the welfare system. The way to get these people off the dole is to spend more money training them, helping them, getting them treatment...etc. We don't do that, we toss them in a pot and say they suck and think that's going to work. Thank you very much for pointing this out. People forget that we have 1.6 million people in prison. What do people think happens to the children of those incarcerated? We have over half a million children in foster care. Social Services has a difficult time placing them. If they started taking kids out of homes of people that were on welfare, they would have no place to put them. The economic crisis we are in has been an equalizer. Workers in all economic classes have found themselves displaced. ENTIRE CITIES have been shut down because factories failed or just went across the border. And many people in this country are only a couple of paychecks away from welfare themselves.

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 7:18:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Wrong. Prohibitions against marriage or procreation are unconstitutional. There's no rewording that gets around that. Which article is this in and why does it not apply to siblings who wish to do these things? It's caselaw interpretation, not in a specific article. I'm not going to look it up for you, there are many cases on it and it's been a long-standing legal principle. There are many rights we have that are not specifically enumerated in the constitution including many of our fundamental criminal law rights. I'm not one of those people that remembers citations or names, except landmark decisions. I really don't know about the sibling thing, I would guess there is a USSC case on it also somewhere. It's not exactly on topic though.

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