RE: When does helping, turn into enabling?

RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (Full Version)

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laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:43:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron It doesn't say you have to help pay for them. It simply means you cannot STOP them from having children. The laws passed by the govn't say you have to help pay for them. Actually according to Laurell's post that she can't be bothered to substantiate, it's not in the Constitution but rather in the courts' interpretation of the Constitution. Since she won't bother actually linking that interpretation I can't really comment on anything specific, but I will say that IMO there's a difference between forcing someone to stop having children, and offering them money to stop having children, which would be more akin to welfare benefits. You're not bright are you? You resort to personal attacks when you are in over your head because you don't want to look foolish and don't understand the concepts. It's not intelligent debate. Look it up yourself if you don't believe me. I'm actually not your research whore and yes, that issue is dead in the water also. In fact, they cannot even suggest education on planned parenthood under one decision. Maybe instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about, YOU should have a clue what the government can and cannot do prior to issuing your sweeping grand theories? eh?

Jasmineinbloom -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:44:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I am curious Elisabella. How is a child of a welfare recipient less valuable? Why should certain people be targeted for sterilization because of money? quote: ORIGINAL: Brain Okay, but it doesn't mean they have the right to start sterilizing people, that's ridiculous. Forcing people to get sterilized is ridiculous. Offering them money if they're willing to be is a different story....though I'd imagine this would only come up in situations where the person has been on welfare for a long time and continues to have children.

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:45:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Here's a crazy idea, LadyC. How about instead of going all caps and bold on me, (which doesn't impress) you go back and answer my question about what it does to the soul of a child when he isn't allowed to build a work ethic? I have an answer to your question (though I doubt you'll like it very well), but I think you are afraid to answer mine. You know there are tons of mentor programs that don't have enough volunteers for those children. They are great programs with long waiting lists for kids to learn some of the things they cannot learn from their parents. I'm really not being snarky in suggesting that anyone here that is bothered by these kids social plight should consider participating in one of these programs to help.

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:46:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 You're not bright are you? You resort to personal attacks when you are in over your head because you don't want to look foolish and don't understand the concepts. It's not intelligent debate. Look it up yourself if you don't believe me. I'm actually not your research whore and yes, that issue is dead in the water also. In fact, they cannot even suggest education on planned parenthood under one decision. Maybe instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about, YOU should have a clue what the government can and cannot do prior to issuing your sweeping grand theories? eh? Maybe you should stop your personal attacks before trying to criticize others for doing the same. If I say something on these boards that is a verifyable fact, and someone questions me, I will fucking link that shit. I won't say "go look it up yourself" because its MY point to make not theirs. I don't disbelieve you. I just think you're slime because you can't be fucked backing up your own words. There's a difference.

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:47:20 PM)
Yeah I'm slime for presuming people have a basic understanding of government that any 5th grader should know and not wanting to teach that class....mhm....right. This "slime" works in the system to help families for free all the time by the way.

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:48:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jasmineinbloom ORIGINAL: Elisabella I am curious Elisabella. How is a child of a welfare recipient less valuable? Why should certain people be targeted for sterilization because of money? They're not less valuable, they're more expensive. And I'm not saying people should be targeted for sterilization, that was someone else. I'm just saying that the sterilization wouldn't be "forced" if it was an optional procedure that a person could participate in, in exchange for welfare money.

TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:49:55 PM)
What? "Asskicking?" The President thinks that is fine language for morning TV news shows. "Bullshit?" Would you prefer I said, "poppycock?" I'm certain there aren't supposed to be any underage eyes reading the conversation. Don't get your undergarments in a bunch, I'll address the "what about the children?" with my next post. I'm a slow typist. Here's some light reading: California welfare recipients withdrew $1.8 million at casino ATMs over eight months

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:50:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Yeah I'm slime for presuming people have a basic understanding of government that any 5th grader should know and not wanting to teach that class....mhm....right. I didn't realize that 5th graders were familiar with which court case decided the Constitution prohibited restrictions on having children. Can you even name the fucking case yourself or did you drop out in the 4th grade? And yes it is extremely slimy to make an assertation, then when asked to cite your source, to reply "go look it up yourself." That's fucking ridiculous.

dcnovice -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:50:22 PM)
quote: I'm just saying that the sterilization wouldn't be "forced" if it was an optional procedure that a person could participate in, in exchange for welfare money. If it's "in exchange" for money someone needs to survive, it comes awfully close to being forced.

Brain -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:50:27 PM)
I don't think bribing people to get sterilized is the right way to go either. quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: Brain Okay, but it doesn't mean they have the right to start sterilizing people, that's ridiculous. Forcing people to get sterilized is ridiculous. Offering them money if they're willing to be is a different story....though I'd imagine this would only come up in situations where the person has been on welfare for a long time and continues to have children.

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:52:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice If it's "in exchange" for money someone needs to survive, it comes awfully close to being forced. Then it's probably a good thing they won't be having any more kids if they can't even feed themselves eh? And yeah I'm being snarky here, I can't believe I have to specify that shit.

Jasmineinbloom -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:53:28 PM)
Maybe I'm misinterpreting you Elizabella, but it almost comes across like you're placing a subhuman context on people who for whatever reason, are on welfare long term.

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:54:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain I don't think bribing people to get sterilized is the right way to go either. Meh, I don't really care either way. I do think that if someone has been on welfare for a long period of time and has had multiple kids during that time, sterilization would be a good thing for that person and that person's children. But for the most part, benefits are a temporary thing, and sterilization is permanent, so it's not really balanced.

dcnovice -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:56:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice If it's "in exchange" for money someone needs to survive, it comes awfully close to being forced. Then it's probably a good thing they won't be having any more kids if they can't even feed themselves eh? Wow. Just wow. quote: And yeah I'm being snarky here, I can't believe I have to specify that shit. And I can't believe this exchange either.

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:56:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Yeah I'm slime for presuming people have a basic understanding of government that any 5th grader should know and not wanting to teach that class....mhm....right. I didn't realize that 5th graders were familiar with which court case decided the Constitution prohibited restrictions on having children. Can you even name the fucking case yourself or did you drop out in the 4th grade? And yes it is extremely slimy to make an assertation, then when asked to cite your source, to reply "go look it up yourself." That's fucking ridiculous. You know contrary to your belief that diversionary emotional tactics are intelligent, it's not something I tend to do. I'm done playing your game. Insult me all you want, a bullying and rude demand for me to do anything only works for the men and women in black dresses (and Jeffff). [8D]

Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:57:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jasmineinbloom Maybe I'm misinterpreting you Elizabella, but it almost comes across like you're placing a subhuman context on people who for whatever reason, are on welfare long term. Nah, I'm just saying they shouldn't have more kids if they're having difficulty feeding the ones they already have. IMO the kids they have that are on the brink of starvation take higher priority over their unfertilized eggs that may or may not one day be kids that are also on the brink of starvation. People on welfare aren't subhuman. People who have kids, who are on welfare with no real likelihood of getting off it any time in the forseeable future, are kind of dumb.

Jeffff -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:57:48 PM)
fuck... I am tired...lol

Jeffff -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:59:02 PM)
I endorse laurell's previous post!.... I will NOT wear a little black dress.

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 8:59:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron It doesn't say you have to help pay for them. It simply means you cannot STOP them from having children. The laws passed by the govn't say you have to help pay for them. Actually according to Laurell's post that she can't be bothered to substantiate, it's not in the Constitution but rather in the courts' interpretation of the Constitution. Since she won't bother actually linking that interpretation I can't really comment on anything specific, but I will say that IMO there's a difference between forcing someone to stop having children, and offering them money to stop having children, which would be more akin to welfare benefits. You're not bright are you? You resort to personal attacks when you are in over your head because you don't want to look foolish and don't understand the concepts. It's not intelligent debate. Look it up yourself if you don't believe me. I'm actually not your research whore and yes, that issue is dead in the water also. In fact, they cannot even suggest education on planned parenthood under one decision. Maybe instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about, YOU should have a clue what the government can and cannot do prior to issuing your sweeping grand theories? eh? Frankly ... has nothing to do with the Constitution, or the Courts It has a lot to do with ELECTED OFFICIALS ... in the 1960's ... AKA Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. It is because America ... for generations was a compassionate society ... caring and generous to others ... These values represented mainstream American values ... just 50 years ago. Seems some things have changed ...

laurell3 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/26/2010 9:01:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff I endorse laurell's previous post!.... I will NOT wear a little black dress. haha....thank god...there's all sorts of nothing sexual in that picture.

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