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RE: Aftercare - 6/30/2010 11:44:56 PM   
LordShadow


Posts: 172
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline 		I can't speak for all, but in my experience aftercare is not a reward or an option...it is a necessity.

In what I do a girl is laid totally bare and vulnerable, she just unloaded all her pent up emotions and her mind is free floating...how can after care be an option? It shouldn't be, or at least is not in this Home.




_____________________________

Ride Hard Live Free
Shadow

True beauty is not seen with the eyes but rather felt in the heart...

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Aftercare - 6/30/2010 11:46:53 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

Well, this all seems to be an overwhelming consensus thus far.

LL - I think I know that you're right. Here's my direct fear, if this makes any sense: that I will never be able to find anyone who can both psychologically tear me to shreds and then very much want to build me back up again. I'm worried that there aren't people who are capable of being vulnerable to me by showing me how much they care, even after they've dragged me through the dark parts of my sexuality. I realize that's a silly thing to say to a giant BDSM community, and I'm positive that everyone is going to tell me that I just haven't met Doms like that and there are plenty, but as I've only been "in the lifestyle" for a year and a half, I don't have the experience to quash that fear. So what that leaves me with is: what if what I have is as good as it gets?

You know I'm not naive, and you know I can hold my own in a lot of ways, so that question is purely from the illogical but present dark recesses of my little subbie heart. And I can't shake it.


You know that I know that you are not naive and can hold your own. Your question isn't the least bit illogical, and it isn't even something that gets asked because of youth. It gets asked out of "newness" to what you are doing.

As for the question of "what if this is as good as it gets?" If that's as good as it is going to get for you, as a young, smart, beautiful woman, is it worth it? You already know that there are tons of other dominants out there that you haven't met, and you know that any one of them might be the same as your current partner, worse (God help us), a little better, or the one you have dreamed of your whole life. Ya just never know.

You are so not the type to stay in an unhappy situation out of fear that there would be nothing better out there for you.

by the way, you will have mail in about 5 minutes.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Aftercare - 6/30/2010 11:49:59 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


It is bad advice for YOU. It is GOOD advice and I stand by it. He isn't her "top," he is supposed to be her partner. They aren't playing S&M games, but intense psychological mind fuck stuff.


Fair enough, like I said I would not be the TOP for her, regardless of the Dynamic when we play the position I take is TOP which would be IN ADDITION to what ever dynamic was in place. I am glad you stand by your advice, I stand by mine.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Your way has "worked" for you for 10 years. Do you discuss your view on it before hand, like a responsible adult or do you just spring it on them and figure they can just deal with it. Since you haven't had the same partner for those 10 years, so has it really worked? Obviously you have no concept of how selfish you sound when you talk about how you take care of YOU, so maybe you also have no concept that your relationships ended because your partners got fed up with your selfish attitude.


If you read my post you would now I explain my view on aftercare before I play every time. I do not see myself as being selfish, actually I see myself taking the advice that is being given to the girl. You know, Making sure your needs are taken care of. Why are HER needs different that MY needs? Why the Double standard here?

Also if you read what I DO do as aftercare, I wonder if you would still be saying what you are, I am just not there to coddle someone for hours, I have me to take care of as well and ignoring my space to over indulge hers leave to a very unstable mental state for the TOP in this situation, or are you one of those people who ignores the TOP as being alowed to have needs?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Of course you are free to have your opinion, just as I am free to have mine. I actually am friends with OP and know a bit more about her than you do, so my advice to her comes from some personal knowledge, while yours is simply blowing smoke out of your ass. She's smart enough to take your advice with a grain of salt though, so no worries.


And your knowledge was NOT listed in the OP, it was left out, so your opinion comes from a different place than mine did so unless you want to tell her full story so that I can have the same great insite you got, I'll take your advice with a grain of salt.

Seriously does your hypocracy know any bounds?

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Aftercare - 6/30/2010 11:50:35 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

To the OP, ask yourself a serious question. Do you want aftercare because you are lost from what he did? Or in that state do you tell yourself things and need his verbal or physical reinforcement to counter those things? Is this something HE caused or something YOU do all on your own?



I definitely respect your opinion, but I think you're sort of missing the point. I didn't say, at any point, that aftercare is only for subs, or try to insist that everyone needs it. I was asking what people thought because I need it, and I'm not getting it. I think my Dom thinks very much like you, actually - that there's a submitting whenever he does anything that isn't something he wants to do, but is rather something that I want him to do. He thinks that as a sub, my role should be to please him and that should make me happy in and of itself.

The problem, of course, is that I'm not defined solely by my submissiveness, and the rest of me struggles with being psychologically dragged through the mud. I'm not talking pleasure/pain subspace, I'm talking being made to feel like a total object/whore in a repeatedly slapping down manner. And don't get me wrong - I love it. It's high on my list of sexual activities: being humiliated and degraded down into a total submissive heap.

However. I am also a really deeply loving, kind, sensitive human being who doesn't really want to feel like an object/whore except in protected sexual situations. Not everyone believes that a submissive's role is to do whatever she's told and like it; personally, I'm more of the give and take camp, like some of the previous posters. I think that if you want me to go down that far and be that total vulnerable sex toy for you, I have to feel like I can trust you, and that you care about me.

Like you said, it could easily be a compatibility issue. That's why I'm asking, not so I can use it as an excuse to end the relationship. I do find it a bit ironic that you're yelling about aftercare being a crock of shit and yet have stated that it's something that you need, and you find it insensitive that there aren't threads about Doms needing aftercare. I think everyone should have what they need emotionally and psychologically, including you. So don't you think I should have what I need emotionally and psychologically?

As for your direct questions: Is it something that I'm causing to myself? Possibly. I get off on humiliation, which doesn't work unless you're humiliated by it. So obviously when I let someone do the things that he does to me, I'm inviting it. However, he is doing it to me too. He knows exactly what he's doing - that's part of what makes him incredible at what he does - and he enjoys it. We both do, but there's no naivete on his part where the effects on me are somehow hidden.

I don't think he's a terrible person. I don't think I am, either. I think we both deserve to not feel like crap the next day, however, and at present, I'm the one who does.

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Aftercare - 6/30/2010 11:52:33 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		I think that your Dom's unwillingness to give you the care you need is disrespectful of you. And since you're evidently gorgeous and smart, you could do a lot better.

Speaking personally, I feel I don't get to choose when to care and when not to - if my partner needs care before play, during play, after it - or for a reason totally unconnected with play then surely, if I value her and the relationship I ought to give it? That said, I'm unlikely to be all that into a sub who needed constant care/nurturing... and I'd make that clear.

AQuietSimpleMan makes a couple of really good points - First, that Doms occasionally need a little care too! Second, that some Doms aren't all that into "after care" - Now, that's not my cup of tea but AQuietSimpleMan is clear, and honest about his position - And someone who needs a lot of after care would know what to expect.

Your Dom may have a range of reasons for not wanting to or being able to offer you the care you want but he's not being as straight about it as AQuietSimpleMan is...


(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:01:08 AM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I think that your Dom's unwillingness to give you the care you need is disrespectful of you. And since you're evidently gorgeous and smart, you could do a lot better.

Speaking personally, I feel I don't get to choose when to care and when not to - if my partner needs care before play, during play, after it - or for a reason totally unconnected with play then surely, if I value her and the relationship I ought to give it? That said, I'm unlikely to be all that into a sub who needed constant care/nurturing... and I'd make that clear.

AQuietSimpleMan makes a couple of really good points - First, that Doms occasionally need a little care too! Second, that some Doms aren't all that into "after care" - Now, that's not my cup of tea but AQuietSimpleMan is clear, and honest about his position - And someone who needs a lot of after care would know what to expect.


Agreed. As a Top I definitely prefer at least some level of aftercare as much for my benefit as anyone else's. I'm flexible on exactly how much aftercare is required (ie I can do the whole hours long cuddling and reassurances route, or I'm happy enough just to spend a bit of relaxed time with someone making small talk and reconnecting). I personally find if I don't do at least at some sort of aftercare then I find I feel antsy, and incomplete somehow, as if the session hasn't quiet ended. I can do aftercare on myself though, for example through certain energy grounding rituals, so it's not necessarily a hard and fast rule for me as being something I absolutely must have or else. Still, it is definitely my preference to engage in at least some level of aftercare, which means I'm not likely to choose a play partner that is incompatible with that.

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:01:24 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB


I definitely respect your opinion, but I think you're sort of missing the point. I didn't say, at any point, that aftercare is only for subs, or try to insist that everyone needs it. I was asking what people thought because I need it, and I'm not getting it. I think my Dom thinks very much like you, actually - that there's a submitting whenever he does anything that isn't something he wants to do, but is rather something that I want him to do. He thinks that as a sub, my role should be to please him and that should make me happy in and of itself.

The problem, of course, is that I'm not defined solely by my submissiveness, and the rest of me struggles with being psychologically dragged through the mud. I'm not talking pleasure/pain subspace, I'm talking being made to feel like a total object/whore in a repeatedly slapping down manner. And don't get me wrong - I love it. It's high on my list of sexual activities: being humiliated and degraded down into a total submissive heap.

However. I am also a really deeply loving, kind, sensitive human being who doesn't really want to feel like an object/whore except in protected sexual situations. Not everyone believes that a submissive's role is to do whatever she's told and like it; personally, I'm more of the give and take camp, like some of the previous posters. I think that if you want me to go down that far and be that total vulnerable sex toy for you, I have to feel like I can trust you, and that you care about me.

Like you said, it could easily be a compatibility issue. That's why I'm asking, not so I can use it as an excuse to end the relationship. I do find it a bit ironic that you're yelling about aftercare being a crock of shit and yet have stated that it's something that you need, and you find it insensitive that there aren't threads about Doms needing aftercare. I think everyone should have what they need emotionally and psychologically, including you. So don't you think I should have what I need emotionally and psychologically?

As for your direct questions: Is it something that I'm causing to myself? Possibly. I get off on humiliation, which doesn't work unless you're humiliated by it. So obviously when I let someone do the things that he does to me, I'm inviting it. However, he is doing it to me too. He knows exactly what he's doing - that's part of what makes him incredible at what he does - and he enjoys it. We both do, but there's no naivete on his part where the effects on me are somehow hidden.

I don't think he's a terrible person. I don't think I am, either. I think we both deserve to not feel like crap the next day, however, and at present, I'm the one who does.


This is the central problem of bdsm. Many want one or the other but very few can actually exist that way but those who want JUST to be used as a whore wonder why they feel used up at some point and those who want all the soft warm fuzzy love wonder why the heat they once felt drifts off. Of course, there are three exceptions to this generalization and all four of them will post to this thread how they do just this but the 2,502,696 posts on the board wondering what the fuck happend to them would seem to counter that.

Dominants get lost in this too. They think they realy can treat a woman like whore without seeing her as having other sides to her, other needs. Same goes for those fluffy doms who just want to treat her like a princess.

The reality is most of us want some of this, some of that, oh, and a bit of that too. Learning to talk about, explore together, and have the time of your life turning her into a pathetic cum eating hole while running her a bubble bath, bringing her breakfast in bed after having raped her ass takes time to learn.

But it is sure fun when you get there!

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:02:56 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

The problem, of course, is that I'm not defined solely by my submissiveness,


Gorgeous.

quote:



I'm talking being made to feel like a total object/whore in a repeatedly slapping down manner. And don't get me wrong - I love it. It's high on my list of sexual activities: being humiliated and degraded down into a total submissive heap.


Ba da bing!

quote:



So don't you think I should have what I need emotionally and psychologically?


I don't think he's saying that, I think he's simply saying that you and he wouldn't be compatible. And don't mind the bold and use of caps, that's just his way (many of us have a kind of forum tourettes...)

quote:


I don't think he's a terrible person. I don't think I am, either. I think we both deserve to not feel like crap the next day, however, and at present, I'm the one who does.


Bingo!


Seriously - someone as articulate and hawt as you.... you will totally find the right guy, I reckon your current Dawg wont hunt.

Now... I happen to know that there are dozens and dozens, and acres and acres of Doms in London who are right up your street - Did you get to London on your European trip? The job market is wonderful, and the quality of life is superb, you'd love it.

Oh and I live there ;-)

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:03:52 AM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
Also if you read what I DO do as aftercare, I wonder if you would still be saying what you are, I am just not there to coddle someone for hours, I have me to take care of as well and ignoring my space to over indulge hers leave to a very unstable mental state for the TOP in this situation, or are you one of those people who ignores the TOP as being alowed to have needs?


Maybe I can help clarify a little. I'm looking for like 10-30 minutes of aftercare from my Dom. I never need care in the middle of play, and I am a firm believer that Doms should be cared for (or take care of themselves) as well. So... stop yelling at LafayetteLady

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:07:12 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
Also if you read what I DO do as aftercare, I wonder if you would still be saying what you are, I am just not there to coddle someone for hours, I have me to take care of as well and ignoring my space to over indulge hers leave to a very unstable mental state for the TOP in this situation, or are you one of those people who ignores the TOP as being alowed to have needs?


Maybe I can help clarify a little. I'm looking for like 10-30 minutes of aftercare from my Dom. I never need care in the middle of play, and I am a firm believer that Doms should be cared for (or take care of themselves) as well. So... stop yelling at LafayetteLady


Wasn't yelling.

And nothing about what you are asking is out of line.

There is the question of if he just doesn't do the Aftercare thing at all, it might just not make any sence to him.

Was Aftercare ever discussed prior to getting involved?

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:09:45 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

that's just his way (many of us have a kind of forum tourettes...)


OH THANK YOU crazyml,

Actually that is true, My Capping Bolding and Strange sentence and posting structure is just that.... like a form of Tourettes.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:14:30 AM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		Just a thought. Circumstance may be a factor too. A previous sub & I used to meet in hotels - we both travelled a lot for work. She wanted the maximum play time and would push for one more scene. I required her to stop an hour - sometimes two - before we had to leave. She needed the aftercare. If I didn't do it, the down time would hit her on the way home when she was on her own. Never good. Though she ALWAYS argued about the need for it, she DID always need it.

My tuppence

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:15:04 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I'm not sure where you continue to get the concept that there is a double standard going on. At no time has anyone (me included) said that his needs should be completely ignored. In any relationship there are times when one partner's need will supercede the other's. A simple example would be two friends. One smokes the other doesn't. The smoker isn't going to smoke in the non smoking friend's house or car.

This man's "need" seems to be to want her to continue to believe all the stuff that is said during play. He doesn't want to tell her that he cares about her, or anything else. This isn't like S&M play. That isn't psychological. Mind games work differently because that's what they are designed to do, play with your mind.

I did read your post. Explaining before play what you do is the responsible thing to do so that your partner can make an informed decision as to whether "your way" is going to meet their needs.

Did you read her post? On one side of the coin he is saying they need to find aftercare that does work for her, then he says it should be that she doesn't need it. Do you see the contradiction? This isn't a case of saying this is how I do things, you need to decide if it works for you. Instead it is let's find something that will work for you, but let's make sure what works for you is that I don't have to do anything to make you feel better.

I'm not one who ignores the "top's" needs. I'm simply one that feels that in order for it to work, they need to take care of each other's needs.

My knowledge didn't need to be listed in the OP. Quite frankly, I don't need to provide you with a list of my friends or make statements about things we talk about in an OP.

Quite frankly, regardless of what you know or don't know about the situation, your "advice" and "opinion" would be the same.

As for your statement about hyprocracy, I think perhaps you should learn the definition of the word. I've said nothing hypcritical other than telling you I believe your advice to be a bunch of bullshit and having the opinion that your are a selfish ass. Nothing hypocritical about it.

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:22:52 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline 		LL,

Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

— hypocrite adjective

To suggest that a persons need for aftercare should be addressed, but that my needs are not as important is Hypocritical.

jujubee you have mail hopefully you will be able to see past your nose to see how I feel. It is obvious that she won't.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:30:50 AM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

While someone is in deep subspace and really settled into your aftercare is also a good time to plant suggestions but you didn't hear that from me.



You evil, evil man...


If I didn't know better, I would think you were flirting with me.


I have no idea what you're talking about... I never flirt!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:33:16 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

While someone is in deep subspace and really settled into your aftercare is also a good time to plant suggestions but you didn't hear that from me.



You evil, evil man...


If I didn't know better, I would think you were flirting with me.


I have no idea what you're talking about... I never flirt!


My mistake, it will never happen again.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 12:35:04 AM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Seriously - someone as articulate and hawt as you.... you will totally find the right guy, I reckon your current Dawg wont hunt.

Now... I happen to know that there are dozens and dozens, and acres and acres of Doms in London who are right up your street - Did you get to London on your European trip? The job market is wonderful, and the quality of life is superb, you'd love it.

Oh and I live there ;-)


Well aren't you just sweet as can be... I knew they were hiding all the good Doms somewhere. London, huh? It rained the whole time I was there

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 1:26:31 AM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		OP, things between the two of you seem to have a fundamental mismatch at the base level where needs for both parties involved are met.

That being said, I think your Dom is a dickhead and is actually irresponsible to be aware of your needs and purposefully not provide for them. Can you do better than being with someone who picks and chooses which of your needs they will meet? Yes, you can. You can find someone who will take their job as your partner more seriously.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 1:33:50 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi

OP, things between the two of you seem to have a fundamental mismatch at the base level where needs for both parties involved are met.

That being said, I think your Dom is a dickhead and is actually irresponsible to be aware of your needs and purposefully not provide for them. Can you do better than being with someone who picks and chooses which of your needs they will meet? Yes, you can. You can find someone who will take their job as your partner more seriously.


Being a mismatch doesn't make the dominant a dickhead, being aware of her needs and not providing them doesn't make someone a dickhead either. Telling them they are wrong for feeling that way IS dickheadish.

That said, while most of those posting in this thread are nearly perfect, amateurs like myself actually make mistakes, do things wrong, drop the ball but we do try and own our mistakes and learn from them. Despite our playful flirting, I hope she learns to better communicate her needs to him and I hope he figures out how to take better care or they figure out how to part gracefully as friends.

(in reply to lizi)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 2:00:47 AM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi

OP, things between the two of you seem to have a fundamental mismatch at the base level where needs for both parties involved are met.

That being said, I think your Dom is a dickhead and is actually irresponsible to be aware of your needs and purposefully not provide for them. Can you do better than being with someone who picks and chooses which of your needs they will meet? Yes, you can. You can find someone who will take their job as your partner more seriously.


Being a mismatch doesn't make the dominant a dickhead, being aware of her needs and not providing them doesn't make someone a dickhead either. Telling them they are wrong for feeling that way IS dickheadish.

That said, while most of those posting in this thread are nearly perfect, amateurs like myself actually make mistakes, do things wrong, drop the ball but we do try and own our mistakes and learn from them. Despite our playful flirting, I hope she learns to better communicate her needs to him and I hope he figures out how to take better care or they figure out how to part gracefully as friends.


The OP is posting about a man that she is involved with in a day to day relationship who regularly leaves her wanting while being aware of her needs because he doesn't feel like putting himself out for her. At the objective end of the spectrum I'd call that a basic relationship mismatch...which I did. At the subjective end I'd call the guy a dickhead for the dichotomy of having an ongoing relationship as opposed to something casual, and not being willing to put in some extra effort to ensure his partner is being taken care of. It doesn't seem to me that willful negligence is in the same category of people making mistakes nor is anyone who makes a genuine mistake a dickhead.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 40
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