RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong.

RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (Full Version)

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AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 9:45:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan Please understand that this has the potential to be a HEATED Thread, but if we are all adults and discuss rather than attack this can be a very CIVIL Thread. Here is hoping that we can all be adults. (snip) Why do we find it so difficult to see the validity of someone else’s opinion unless it mimics or at least isn’t threatening to our own? It's not your opinion that causes the problem. It's the delivery. Look at how you started here... in communication-speak, it's referred to as a "harsh startup". It sets a negative tone, a defensive tone in both you and the readers. The aftercare thread post started the same way, here: quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan <Sighs> And just when people were starting to like me. Aftercare in most cases is crock of shit. No not the giving of it, but the idea that it is one sided. The opening sentiments cause people to get defensive... unless I missed something, this was the first time that the notion of one-sided aftercare came up, it wasn't in the OP and it wasn't in any of the responses before yours. Combine a harsh startup with a large bold font and the perception is that you are angry and defensive. Some people also might get the perception that you are going down the "one true way" route. So people react to that - to their perception, to the way you present yourself. It's like you were having an argument with someone off the boards and you're all worked up and passionate about the topic, and then you post. It sets the tone. It's all about delivery. Cali I found it difficult to snip so I just left it all there. I would say that everything that you just said is based as a Judgement made with nothing to back it up, it someone GUESSES at the tone of a thread without verifying how it was intended then they themselves are the agressor not me. I do get your Point but I know that sometimes after reading threads for an hour or so that it gets harder to read the font for me, So I use Verdana and Bold it, makes it easier for me to read. I do it as much for individuality as I do for anything else. The "Harsh Startup" as you put it is not something that I paint on the thread, readers who are mor interested in aquiring a Tonality of a speach patters that just isn't there in the written word. You assume I am using a negative tone, an angry tone, a defensive tone. I will say with absolute certainity that I posted my opinion as I felt it, In a Matter of Fact tone, no emotion, it is what it is for me. Any tonality that was implied was done so by the reader. Even when I CAPITALIZE a word it would only be as an inflection on the word not a sign that I am saying it while angry. I think some people just look for a reason to make something worse than it is or mean something it doesn't mean. QSM

juliaoceania -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 9:50:22 AM)
Here is my view on internet communication... If I take the time to type something up and post it that is because I want to communicate with others... If a large percentage of the people I am communicating with misunderstand me, that means there is something wrong with my delivery, not with their reading comprehension... I have to ask, why is it so hard for you to simply communicate that aftercare is something you do not believe in and seek low maintenance types to play with? Why do we who like aftercare have to be flawed, nuts, a crock of shit? I don't get that

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 9:56:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The idea that walking away to take care of yourself is abandonment IS Irrational. There is no rational basis for belief. Nothing about my matter or actions should lead someone to believe that I am leaving and not coming back. Or that I do not care about them or that I think they are a worthless piece of shit. Thinking those things because I stepped away for 10 minutes most certainly is the DEFINITION of IRRATIONAL. You have managed to make this all about you and then managed to extrapolate that to everyone else... the desire of all submissives to have aftercare is not a crock of shit, it is not irrational, and it has nothing to do with your personal experiences.... Julia since when does my opinion have to be about anything BUT me? Now please pay attention, I NEVER said ALL submissives, I never even said ALL the time, I never sais ALL PERIOD, You keep saying that, you aren't even bothering to read what I say you just choose to make it up as you go along, you painted me this way from the beginning, you read one word ONE sentence in and decided no matter what I said that I was this Bastard you have created. SOME peoples view of Aftercare MOST CERTANILY is a Crock of SHIT, and Irrational.... TO ME!! I see it at times as a needy responce that is designed to get what they want. I see it at times as a form of topping from the bottom and then disguise it as "Aftercare" so that to deny it is to ask for scrutiny from others. I KNOW people who have admitted to doing this to get the big bad TOP to bet all mushy, cause that is the only time he does. This is something I have actually had admitted to me, and it was mirrored by more than one other bottom. I have had a couple Switches admit that is why they like to bottom, NOT EVERYONE, NOT ALL, But enough to believe that the behavior exists. The more you push the Idea of aftercare the more I am inclined to believe that you are one of those kind of people. Not everyone ends a scene being a broken psycological mess, not everyone has thoughts that if their Top walks away that they think they are a piece of shit and are never comeing back, Not all submissives think so lowly of themselves that their subconcious can tell them something that isn't true. The ID is not always present in submissives and in the way you are presenting your argument you would have every Top assume that they are. I don't cast anything in an all or never way. Aftercare to me is something that isn't a singular act. It is about builing a submissive up in such a way that no matter where I am no matter the distance no matter how much or little contact there is they know WITHOUT A DOUBT that I am indeed not abandoning them and will be there when it is necessary. QSM

marie2 -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:02:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan Why do we find it so difficult to see the validity of someone else’s opinion unless it mimics or at least isn’t threatening to our own? Because sometimes our opinions are so strong that we delude ourselves into thinking we are right and the other person is just plain wrong. I'm not refering to conversations or debates pertaining to something that can proven as correct or incorrect, I'm talking about opinion-based topics. There will always be someone in opposition, but the problem sometimes comes in when a person with one strong opinion challenges a person with an opposing opinion. Sometimes it can make for some good food for thought, but when it is delivered with an antagonistic tone, it always gets ugly because it then leaves the frame of "exchange of ideas" and enters into the frame of "personal attack". It's just the way the cookie crumbles, especially on a message forum when people, in general, are less apt to be civilized to one another.

CalifChick -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:02:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan I would say that everything that you just said is based as a Judgement made with nothing to back it up, it someone GUESSES at the tone of a thread without verifying how it was intended then they themselves are the agressor not me. (snip) I think some people just look for a reason to make something worse than it is or mean something it doesn't mean. You just proved my point. I'm sorry that you are not open to seeing that you may be PERCEIVED by others in a certain way due to the way you present yourself. It really is a shame, I think, because you do have some very interesting ideas. Ideas that would make great discussion if it didn't get bogged down in misunderstandings. Cali

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:06:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have to ask, why is it so hard for you to simply communicate that aftercare is something you do not believe in and seek low maintenance types to play with? Quite simply because that isn't how I feel, and I will not allow anyone to try and force me to say something that isn't true just so they can feel superior somehow. Julia are you somehow unaware that not everyone gets the way you do after play? That it isn't a universal fact of play? No everyone gets what you describe. I do not consider you HIGH maintenance because you do, I just think that you do. Now the Demanding that I don't believe in aftercare is somewhat inaccurate because I have said many times exactly what I do for aftercare, and this would not be Adequate .... FOR YOU. And well I'm not playing with you so why do I need to do anything different or state anything when it will never apply to you? quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Why do we who like aftercare have to be flawed, nuts, a crock of shit? I don't get that And I would ask you to show me where I EVER said the above? Where did I ever say that people who like aftercare are anything at all? In fact I only specifically present a couple of types, those who I think use aftercare as a way to force a relationship that doesn't exist otherwise (Thank you SimplyMichael) and Those who engage in play that I NEVER WOULD, so it would never apply to me anyway. Why is this so hard for you to stop stamping your foot and comprehend? QSM?

juliaoceania -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:09:19 AM)
quote: Now please pay attention, I NEVER said ALL submissives, I never even said ALL the time, I never sais ALL PERIOD, You keep saying that, you aren't even bothering to read what I say you just choose to make it up as you go along, you painted me this way from the beginning, you read one word ONE sentence in and decided no matter what I said that I was this Bastard you have created. You know, this could be a teachable moment, but someone has to be willing to take in a new bit of wisdom in order for it to become so... You know, I could care less how many posts you start with some sort of "disclaimer" that it "isn't going to be popular" or "People aren't going to like what I am about to say" etc, setting yourself up to be a target of disagreement... I don't care and usually, unless you are advising someone else on their situation, I don't bite at those remarks... why? It has no impact on my life if you are SSC or RACK, I don't care. You wanna have that debate, that is fine by me, the only perspective I care about in that regard is someone that is going to be beating me.... ...But that is not the extent of what I have read on these boards... what I read from you is how when submissives ask questions and want perspectives on their relationships, etc, the submissive is invariably "wrong" and the master is always "right". Now it is your right to put forward that perspective, that is completely something that is okay, but others aren't going to always agree with you... depending on what you say they will sometimes loudly try to discredit your opinion... and that is okay too... I am only trying to offer some insight on human beings and how we respond to linguisic choices, and the meanings those choices convey... dude, I do this for a living, it isn't something I do for shits and giggles... you can take what I have said and see if it could apply to how you choose to communicate your ideas, or you can continue feeling picked on and bullied... the choice is yours

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:10:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick You just proved my point. I'm sorry that you are not open to seeing that you may be PERCEIVED by others in a certain way due to the way you present yourself. It really is a shame, I think, because you do have some very interesting ideas. Ideas that would make great discussion if it didn't get bogged down in misunderstandings. Cali Perhaps you are right, I would still think in a Written form of communication people would try harder to read the words rather than get a read for the author. I Type like I talk. Which is calm and collected.... with the exception of the post to Julia above, my internal tonality has not changed. The above post is akin to someone calling you George and you tell them your name is Thomas, and they keep calling you George. It is due to frustration with consistentaly not being comprehended. QSM

juliaoceania -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:14:42 AM)
quote: It really is a shame, I think, because you do have some very interesting ideas. Ideas that would make great discussion if it didn't get bogged down in misunderstandings. I agree with this too,... it is a shame

RCdc -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:16:49 AM)
quote: The "Harsh Startup" as you put it is not something that I paint on the thread, readers who are mor interested in aquiring a Tonality of a speach patters that just isn't there in the written word. You assume I am using a negative tone, an angry tone, a defensive tone. But QSM, the whole thing with harsh start up as Cali put's it is that you are second guessing people even before you have put your post into fruition. Second guessing people whom you have never met and who may never meet you. You are assuming that some people will automatically make this thread uncivil. You are assuming that you are holding some sort of view that no one or the minority agree with. You are assuming that people will choose to argue because it's you and not on the merit of the thread. You are already making it about yourself and people instead of the topic of the post. Your posture is defensive and accusative at the same time. It's bound to get some peoples backs up automatically. But it's the internet - why do you care that much about how people react? the.dark.

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:20:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania ...But that is not the extent of what I have read on these boards... what I read from you is how when submissives ask questions and want perspectives on their relationships, etc, the submissive is invariably "wrong" and the master is always "right". Now it is your right to put forward that perspective, that is completely something that is okay, but others aren't going to always agree with you... depending on what you say they will sometimes loudly try to discredit your opinion... and that is okay too... Now I know you are full of shit. And Yes this time I am saying that YOUR opinion is based on nothing more than you own creation and anyone who knows me should be agreeing right now. I admit to being HUMAN, I don't even like being called Master, it is not what I am in this for. I Admit when I am Wrong and take the opinion of my submissive as soon as it happens! Not a day goes by that I do not sit down with him girl and discuss what is going on that day, how she feels, and what we should do. When a scene goes bad, and yes it has happened, we do what is necessary at the time, then we walk away and get our selves together and then come back and discuss what happened, I look to see at what point I stopped understanding how she felt. I make corrections and then keep communication open. I am a firm believer that most Dominants could get MUCH better at what they do by talking and listening to their and other submissives. They do not have to always agree but they should know how the other end of the leash feels. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am only trying to offer some insight on human beings and how we respond to linguisic choices, and the meanings those choices convey... dude, I do this for a living, it isn't something I do for shits and giggles... you can take what I have said and see if it could apply to how you choose to communicate your ideas, or you can continue feeling picked on and bullied... the choice is yours You do what for a Living? Judge people by what they say on the internet? Or are you implying that you have a job in psycology, and if you do, and that is what you do for a living, don't ever let me find out who you are cause I would go for your liscense. You cannot create any acurate model of any client without getting a baseline and that is not something you can do in an online medium. So what is it you do for a living? Make judgements on people from nothing other than ONE SMALL piece of their belief system? Seriously what is it you do for a living cause I am totally lost right now. QSM

sexyred1 -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:24:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan quote: Perhaps you are right, I would still think in a Written form of communication people would try harder to read the words rather than get a read for the author. I Type like I talk. Which is calm and collected.... with the exception of the post to Julia above, my internal tonality has not changed. The above post is akin to someone calling you George and you tell them your name is Thomas, and they keep calling you George. It is due to frustration with consistentaly not being comprehended. QSM I am not sure why you would ever expect people to have to "try harder" to understand you. The burden of communication online falls upon the writer. That is the only control you have. You have no control over the way words are interpreted. People are telling you that your tone is what is off putting, not your words. You are allowed to have any opinion you want and to disagree with anyone, but when your tone is defensive, you will receive defensive replies. If you feel that you are not being comprehended properly, then you need to explain your opinion without the harshness of tone. We all have done this, dude. And you learn how to communicate more effectively when you take a moment.

RCdc -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:28:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania ...But that is not the extent of what I have read on these boards... what I read from you is how when submissives ask questions and want perspectives on their relationships, etc, the submissive is invariably "wrong" and the master is always "right". Now it is your right to put forward that perspective, that is completely something that is okay, but others aren't going to always agree with you... depending on what you say they will sometimes loudly try to discredit your opinion... and that is okay too... I going to go huh? here. Seriously Julia, I have to back QSM here and I don't know him from adam, but I have NEVER read him saying that 'all submissives must be this way' kinda thing. He's spoken from his perspective from what I have read of his posts when talking about a relationship. You are doing the whole second guessing thing as well. It isn't healthy and I never understand when people do it. Never. the.dark.

Rule -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:30:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan I do get your Point but I know that sometimes after reading threads for an hour or so that it gets harder to read the font for me, So I use Verdana and Bold it, makes it easier for me to read. I do it as much for individuality as I do for anything else. Whatever. I have the posts of more than fifty people on Hide and a fair number of them I have on Hide for reason of illegible font. I will add your posts to that selection. That bold black slurry is like wading through mud for me. If you require that to be an individual, then there is not much to you, not so? There are plenty of people on here that are not part of the unnoticed, grey masses without using bold black slurry font, like domiguy, cpk, jeffff, luscious and many others. Whenever you have decided to use normal font, send me a cmail and I will unHide your posts from my view.

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:32:50 AM)
Well that is something I will look into again. Honestly I think people put too much into Type face or Font, and Boldness and Color, I think it is people looking for something. Many people read my words and do not see it as Harsh, or mean, they read the words that are there and that is what they respond to. I don't personally see find, color, or bold, or capitalized, or anything like that to change what the individul is saying. I do not think I am making anyone work harder, in fact I think I am asking them not to work so hard deciding what I mean and just read what I wrote. QSM

marie2 -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:32:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan quote: Perhaps you are right, I would still think in a Written form of communication people would try harder to read the words rather than get a read for the author. I Type like I talk. Which is calm and collected.... with the exception of the post to Julia above, my internal tonality has not changed. The above post is akin to someone calling you George and you tell them your name is Thomas, and they keep calling you George. It is due to frustration with consistentaly not being comprehended. QSM I am not sure why you would ever expect people to have to "try harder" to understand you. The burden of communication online falls upon the writer. That is the only control you have. You have no control over the way words are interpreted. People are telling you that your tone is what is off putting, not your words. You are allowed to have any opinion you want and to disagree with anyone, but when your tone is defensive, you will receive defensive replies. If you feel that you are not being comprehended properly, then you need to explain your opinion without the harshness of tone. We all have done this, dude. And you learn how to communicate more effectively when you take a moment. I don't disagree with this commentary at all. But sometimes no matter how nicely you put something, some clod will come along and misinterpret or put words in your mouth or assume your tone, no matter how much you bend over backwards to put something diplomatically. Taking it away from this particular instance and looking at it objectively, this shit happens all the time around here. It's not always on the writer. Sometimes it's on the reader too. I agree also with the posters who talked about the harsh start out. That's always a bad idea, because you're already telling the readers in so many words this is going to piss you off. So then the person reads the subsequent post already half under the belief that the post is going to be, or meant to be interpreted as offensive.

juliaoceania -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:34:34 AM)
quote: Julia are you somehow unaware that not everyone gets the way you do after play? That it isn't a universal fact of play? No everyone gets what you describe. I do not consider you HIGH maintenance because you do, I just think that you do. Now the Demanding that I don't believe in aftercare is somewhat inaccurate because I have said many times exactly what I do for aftercare, and this would not be Adequate .... FOR YOU. And well I'm not playing with you so why do I need to do anything different or state anything when it will never apply to you? I do not think it is an insult to say someone is low maintenance on aftercare. Actually I am usually low maintenance on aftercare, depending on many factors...I really do not want to debate aftercare anymore. I will reiterate, whatever works for you in your relationship is FINE. I don't care. In fact I never called you dangerous, abusive, or any other bad thing. I just said that people should find compatible partners... instead of saying that people that were incompatible were "irrational" quote: In fact I only specifically present a couple of types, those who I think use aftercare as a way to force a relationship that doesn't exist otherwise (Thank you SimplyMichael) "Aftercare in most cases is crock of shit. No not the giving of it, but the idea that it is one sided." Michael was the one that came up with the disclaimer about that statement... later in the thread... that original statement hung there for pages. This is what people were responding to... I want you to understand, I am not redebating aftercare with you. I am trying to illustrate how you phrased things in such a way that cause you to experience a backlash against your ideas...

juliaoceania -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:40:19 AM)
quote: going to go huh? here. Seriously Julia, I have to back QSM here and I don't know him from adam, but I have NEVER read him saying that 'all submissives must be this way' kinda thing. I never said he always says that, I said to me it reads that way... because of the little disclaimers, etc, I read his responses and sometimes it feels like a setup to tell the submissive things from the other side... I actually think that is a GOOD THING, to have the other side, but when it is framed defensively, it takes on a different vibe... I don't know if you understand what I am saying... perhaps I am not framing my word choices well[:D]

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:42:02 AM)
And I am not trying to continue discussion on aftercare, it would be on topic because I present it in my original post, what I am pointing out is that what you quote you only read half of it. quote: "Aftercare in most cases is crock of shit. No not the giving of it, but the idea that it is one sided." So my argument if you read the whole sentence is that.... I have no issue with giving aftercare, I think that a submissives is the only one who needs it right away is a crock of shit. Now you have argued that I somehow believe that all aftercare is a crock of shit because you read the first part of this sentence and not the rest. QSM

sexyred1 -> RE: You may not be right... That doesn't make you wrong. (7/2/2010 10:44:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan quote: Perhaps you are right, I would still think in a Written form of communication people would try harder to read the words rather than get a read for the author. I Type like I talk. Which is calm and collected.... with the exception of the post to Julia above, my internal tonality has not changed. The above post is akin to someone calling you George and you tell them your name is Thomas, and they keep calling you George. It is due to frustration with consistentaly not being comprehended. QSM I am not sure why you would ever expect people to have to "try harder" to understand you. The burden of communication online falls upon the writer. That is the only control you have. You have no control over the way words are interpreted. People are telling you that your tone is what is off putting, not your words. You are allowed to have any opinion you want and to disagree with anyone, but when your tone is defensive, you will receive defensive replies. If you feel that you are not being comprehended properly, then you need to explain your opinion without the harshness of tone. We all have done this, dude. And you learn how to communicate more effectively when you take a moment. I don't disagree with this commentary at all. But sometimes no matter how nicely you put something, some clod will come along and misinterpret or put words in your mouth or assume your tone, no matter how much you bend over backwards to put something diplomatically. Taking it away from this particular instance and looking at it objectively, this shit happens all the time around here. It's not always on the writer. Sometimes it's on the reader too. I agree also with the posters who talked about the harsh start out. That's always a bad idea, because you're already telling the readers in so many words this is going to piss you off. So then the person reads the subsequent post already half under the belief that the post is going to be, or meant to be interpreted as offensive. Yes, I agree with that and did not elaborate enough. I was commenting on this specific OP's question. But of course, even when you articulate clearly, interpretation is so subjective, that it can be misunderstood.

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