RE: Feminism and submission

RE: Feminism and submission (Full Version)

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Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 5:33:05 PM)
quote: In my opinion, it's far less to do about the "penis" part as it is the power part. I was "fake ass fucking" men long before I had a dildo attached to a harness that actually penetrated him. The penis, as a symbol, is far more powerful to the men that submit to it than it is to me; It's just another tool in the arsenal, it feels good to use and it's fun. It's also fun dry-humping a man's ass with no strap on either. The position, the meaning, the sensation. I think that goes back to what another poster said about archetypal female and male dominance. What you're doing is archetypally male dominance, and don't get me wrong I think the way you wrote about it was fucking hot, but it's still interesting that strap-on play is fun for so many female dommes. As far as archetypal female dominance goes...when I orgasm, I feel dominant. Even if I'm laying in bed thinking about some crazy wild submissive porn type stuff, as soon as I orgasm, I feel fucking powerful. Plasticine was talking about how male is usually associated with dominance, and female is usually associated with submission, and how that's usually reflected with the idea that penetration is dominant, but even though the archetype for female is "receptive" there is something seriously powerful about a "void" zone, pulsing with energy, yeah if the penis can push it's way in it's a form of power, but if the vagina can swallow you whole and clench around you that's just another form of power. Thread drift. Anyway. My ideas about prescribed "feminist" behavior are fairly well known already, I don't think there should be a "feminist ideal" and I wonder, if someone who wants to create a feminist world would consider denying the nature of their sexuality in order to do so, what exactly are they idealizing?

LadyCimarron -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 6:44:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron It has been my experience that malesubs ask for this type of play AND to be feminized far more often than femdoms request that type of submission. I'll take your word for that...I really don't know enough femdoms to be able to analyze. The whole strap on penis thing is pretty interesting. Feminization not so much, because I've heard of women getting their head shaved for humiliation purposes, which gives the same sort of neutering, but still it does seem that sort of thing is mostly for F/m relationships. I'm totally going to post a new thread about this, I'm curious. ETA - Akasha's post on this thread was more or less what I was getting at - http://www.collarchat.com/m_3260200/mpage_3/tm.htm And actually your own words in that thread said you liked it because it's a "powertrip" - not to get too off topic but what about having a strap-on penis is a power trip if not the 'penis' part? For myself. I never actually strap on the penis. Due to a permanent back injury (PROUD VET![:)]) I stand behind and use the dildo in my hand. The power trip itself comes from a man willing to submit himself in such a manner to me. I think we can all agree that a person with his (or her) ass in the air for you is quite a submissive posture to begin with. Its not such a big stretch (pun intended) that allowing himself to be anally penetrated is also a very submissive act which strikes a dominant reaction in me. The dominance I feel is the same whether I am using a dildoe or my fingers (which I also do). The power trip comes from the power exchange.

zzz4xxx -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 8:05:11 PM)
Easy enough to differentiate subjugation and voluntary servitude. You're free to submit if you want. Having a choice is the key. Great Granny Barefoot N. Preggers had no such choice. Think about the qualitative difference between a gift of servitude and hapless enslavement. The impulses are identical in terms expressing will and yielding to it so expressed. Up is up and down is down. Then apart from the instinctual impulses you have your conscience, which informs your identity with a sense of morality. It is right to do when you have the freedom to not do it, and wrong to do when you have no choice but to comply or suffer. In abstract terms the difference is not directly about submission or dominance at all, but about freedom to choose. Your bodies, yourselves, etc. What may seem confusing is that we're talking about submission in two forms. One is within the relationship, interpersonally, as a mode of transaction expressing a simple truth about your intimate affection. The other form of submission is the greater, broader societal expectation of gender based subjugation. You women folk can't be submissive as you like at home unless you have won out from under the demands of patriarchy at large. It is ironic as word play that one of the rights you assert being feminist is that of being free to choose to submit voluntarily. It is a bit more convenient in practical terms to own slaves outright in accordance with law, as of old, but it is infinitely more meaningful when a free person gives service when they could as easily not. If you think about it, love has been enslaving people two at a time forever, each to the other. BDSM celebrates the instincts we manifest as sexual domination and submission. It's like how it's different giving to a charity than it is being forced to pay a tax, even when the money is going to the same place both ways.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 8:18:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: MadameMarque How can you hold both views at the same time, and which is the one you think is unpopular, within BDSM? The one where everyone is everything, or the one where being dominant is masculine and being submissive is feminine? Actually, I'm beginning to think that what you're trying to say is that in archetypal language, certain traits are considered masculine and feminine. But don't you see how this biases everything else you believe about males and females? How can you find females equal in potential power to males, if the very term "Feminine" means "Submissive," to you? It seems to me that you are hung up on either dominance or submission being somehow better than the other. They are completely equal and opposite. That is where I am coming from. Submission is every bit as powerful. In fact even when dominating a situation it is often wise to choose moments of submission to others in order to gain trust and sympathy. They are both extremely powerful things to do. It is only when a person chooses to do neither that they are weak. ED: I also say that at least two women have emailed me expressing appreciation for my thoughts here in the last two hours. I wonder why they didn't want to post in the thread, hrm.... My guess would be because they equate femininity with submission, as you do. And that they would feel unfeminine if they asserted themselves and declared their views. I can respect that you are not as sexist as you sound, since you stated pretty clearly that you accord a masculine woman the same respect as a masculine man, but I still think you are missing the point. Yes, some Dommes are masculine, some submales are feminine, but there are plenty of perfectly feminine Dommes and masculine submales and the femdoms dominate from their femininity. With the views you have about the nature of feminine and masculine I am not surprised you'd have a hard time understanding that, but the princess (as archetype, not as literal princess, it's about her personality and her air, not her official title and status in society) is definitely in charge, and definitely feminine. She only wants a big strong man to sweep her off her feet and take control in romance novels (and, apparently, in the minds of the social scientists that you enjoy) And her gallant knights are decidedly masculine and decidedly submissive to her (again, as archetypes. I am fully aware that in the real world there are some very feminine male knights, such as sir Elton John)

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 9:26:18 PM)
I adore you guys and all the interesting takes on feminism (and adorable off-topic flirting), but could someone please read the giant amount of questions/issues I posted on page 7? I should have stated more clearly that the whole "feminism means I get to decide to do whatever I want with my body" argument doesn't actually work for me. I mean, I believe it, and I think it's great, but it isn't helping. And I really do want help! If I can't resolve this with a kink friendly therapist (which I've had for four years) I want to give it a real go with feminism-friendly kinksters. I can repost those questions if this is way too obnoxious/confusing - someone just let me know [:)]

gungadin09 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 9:55:14 PM)
i really hate to say this, but it sounds like what you need is a new Dom. i'm not a "feminine" submissive, either. i don't think i could be. It's just not me. Look, i'm not an expert. In fact, i just started this stuff, you're way more experienced than i am. But if the way you see yourself isn't the way that He sees you, then maybe you just need to get out. Look, take this with a grain of salt, okay, because I KNOW NOTHING. But i've had similar problems in my vanilla relationships, when the guy just didn't understand me. If what He wants is an apple, and He's got an orange instead, then it won't work out, for either of you. i've had bad luck so far with relationships. i may feel completely submissive to Someone, but they don't want my submission. Then, i may really want to feel submissive to a guy, but i just don't. My last relationship was like that. i kept waiting for it to happen. But it didn't, because the relationship was a mismatch. He wanted me to feel submissive to Him because He was a man and i was a woman. i needed to feel submissive because of personality- to know that there's something about this person- their intelligence, their morals, their honesty, their insight- that's superior to my own. i want my Dom to be a better person than me, and yet i still want to be respected and taken seriously, and not treated as a child. That was the dealbreaker for me. i don't know what to tell you. i can't tell you how to feel more submissive than you do. All that i can say is that, from my own (limited!) experience, it just happens by itself, or it doesn't. The fact that you're having difficulties with submission might not be your fault. It might just be that you haven't found the right person to submit to. Maybe talk to Him about it? If He values You, then i think he ought to be willing to work through some of these issues with you. Maybe He will have some ideas, or insight. i think you ought to be able to speak with Him about it openly. i think you owe that to Him, and He owes it to you to listen. pam P.S.- like i said, i am hardly an expert

DaddiesBelt -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 11:23:20 PM)
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Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 12:16:37 AM)
Ok, I read through your post on page 7. Looks like you like to challenge your Dom, and have him "put you in your place" That's neither uncommon nor at odds with feminist thought, as far as I can tell. It does help a lot if you and your Dom have the same expectations about that, which really isn't about feminism so much as the power dynamic in your relationship. The part that I see speaking more to a feminist approach, and also to your own conflicted self image is the fact that it turns you on to feel like your value is determined by your value to your man, but also that you intellectually don't like that approach and feel bad about enjoying it. My suggestion would be to have that be something which is not constant in your relationship. Make sure you are clear that you do value your accomplishments and achievements completely outside of the relationship and that you want being valued purely as his possession is something you enjoy in a limited context but it should not extend to your entire relationship. I'd say this is incompatible with a 24/7 dynamic, but I haven't seen any indication that you live a 24/7 dynamic anyway. Separating play time and regular life might be the best way to solve the disconnect that you are feeling.

crazyml -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 2:27:21 AM)
Hello jujubee! So... I went back to page 7. I think your take on Feminism works very well, so there's nothing to challenge, prod, shake about a bit there.. When you say : quote: I do genuinely find this in conflict with what I want. I think the responses so far have been brilliant takes on it, but where I get into trouble is when I'm in a situation with someone who expects my submission to be thoroughly feminine. I don't think that being "sterotypically feminine" is anti-feminist - if that's your choice. If it's not your bag, then you're equally free to make that choice too! Then... quote: I have a really hard time really relishing the roles unless I feel like that element of inequality and power exchange is there. But at the same time, when a Dom is taking my submission for granted, I get this giant flare of anger, like "who does he think he is that I'll just submit to him and he deserves it??" Followed, of course, by incredible gratefulness at what he's doing to me. I just don't know how to cut out that obnoxious voice in between, and maybe it is the men I've been with. Obviously there are a million takes on "what" it is that turns people on about scenes... I have a real penchant (almost a fetish) for smart, independent, powerful women... and in many of them there is that "flare" - Telling a woman who is a successful Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, Academic to bend over and pull down her panties often gets that reaction... and I'm pretty sure that the "flare" is an important part of the process. For many I've played with it's an intrinsic part of the process,,, because they're all smart enough to know that the absolutely don't have to bend over and pull their panties down - they really really can say no... but then they feel that they want to... and it's the clash between the natural reaction "Fuck you I'm not doing that" and obedience that creates the wettie between her legs. Grinning - cute and girly, when combined with being "kind of a klutz" is v v sexy. quote: I'm nobody's image of lovely femininity lightly drifting through the door and taking her place at someone's feet. I'm more like "hey, what's up. I have to go march in a rally now. Oh, you want your cock sucked? Make me." [:D] But I swear, all I want to do half the time is push guys that I desire to knock me down so I get to be in that truly delicious, peaceful place of not being in control. (and as a side note, pushing Doms is not particularly successful...) You see for me this is kind of the point - a winsome, faerie-like, faintly servile woman wouldn't do it for me .... because for me part of the fun is taking Ms ""hey, what's up. I have to go march in a rally now..." and bringing her to the point where she's on her knees, begging for permission to suck my cock (and perhaps she'll be all the more turned on by the fact that she knows that this is an absurdly sumbissive thing to be doing before she goes out on her march...). quote: I genuinely am a feminist, in the sense that I don't actually believe there are many differences between men and women, except biologically. And I want to relish the power I know I have, and find someone to give it to when I trust he'll give it back. Oh, I don't doubt your feminism for a second! I wonder if the key is in the last clause - 'when I trust he'll give it back'. I wonder if that's the "struggle" you're having right now? And, perhaps that's a question you need to take up with your partner? ------------------ Obviously, it goes without saying (But I'll say it anyway) that I think I've already mentioned that London is literally crammed with feminist doms who would love power exchange with a smart, articulate, woman who we know for a fact has one lovely nipple. And when I say "crammed" - you quite literally can't walk out of your door without falling over one. Except when it's raining - you can never find a Dom when it's raining.

sunshinemiss -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 2:30:20 AM)
Be careful jujubee - It's always raining in London...

crazyml -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 2:54:58 AM)
That's right. Queer my pitch why doncha. sheesh.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 2:58:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Be careful jujubee - It's always raining in London... This has been the driest first half of the year in decades [;)]

sunshinemiss -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:00:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml That's right. Queer my pitch why doncha. sheesh. I don't even know what that means. [sm=rofl.gif] But it doesn't sound good.

crazyml -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:21:34 AM)
Excellent point, and well made. :-)

Andalusite -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 8:20:45 AM)
submissivemale22, equal does not mean identical. If someone is heterosexual and submissive, they will almost certainly want to submit to someone who is the opposite gender. I think that coming up with gender characteristics as a justification for their inclinations is absurd, whether they use Female Superiority or Gorean Natural Order to claim that one gender or the other is superior. quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine What I think you mean is that some men are feminine and desire to surrender to masculine women, and conversely some masculine women wish to dominate submissive men. That resonates for me even less than the concept of one gender being automatically dominant over the other. I'm traditionally feminine in many ways, and enjoy cooking, gymnastics, dance, frilly and silky/velvety clothes, and so forth. I also enjoy some pursuits that are more commonly engaged in by men, such as martial arts, weight training, video games, physical sciences, math, and engineering. I wasn't more masculine when I had a male submissive for 5 years, or more feminine when I was a submissive for 3 years and then most recently a slave for one year. I don't agree that I wanted to surrender while I was a Domme, and for years, I rejected the idea, partly because some men were very pushy and assumed like you that I ought to be submissive, or was lying to myself about my inclinations. Once I discovered that I could be submissive, I was open to someone of any orientation who was otherwise compatible with me. Once I'm ready to look again, I won't specifically seek out another Dominant or Master, or a submissive, but a man who meshes with me and meets the standards that I find important. D/s is wonderful if it happens, but I don't need it in order to be happy in a LTR. Jujubee, as many other people have said, there is no conflict between feminism and your needs and desires. It's all about being able to be yourself - not choices exactly, as what works for you (or me, or anyone else) isn't purely a logical, rational, conscious decision. So many things play a part in who we are and what our needs are.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 8:29:09 AM)
Ok, fine, I'll move to London where all the feminist Doms are! You guys have healthcare anyway... [:D]

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 8:40:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite I don't agree that I wanted to surrender while I was a Domme, and for years, I rejected the idea, partly because some men were very pushy and assumed like you that I ought to be submissive, or was lying to myself about my inclinations. Once I discovered that I could be submissive, I was open to someone of any orientation who was otherwise compatible with me. I made no such assertion. No woman 'ought to be submissive'. People are what they are, and should seek their own happiness. But still this does not address the many women who are inclined to be submissive but have difficulties reconciling that with modern cultural norms. I'm done with the debate and you are welcome to find me loathsome, but please don't ascribe me opinions which I do not hold. Masculine personality traits do not make a woman any less of one. I am in possession of some feminine personality traits and I don't feel less of a man. I haven't put anything on anyone that I am not willing to wear myself. The knee-jerk responses to my writings here have played directly into the cultural problem. Peace.

Andalusite -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 8:45:31 AM)
I am simply saying that I don't feel more masculine when I dominate a man, or more feminine when I submit to one. They just aren't linked up for me along gender lines.[:D] I didn't say that you are loathsome, and I hadn't intended to imply that you feel women should be submissive. Rather, some other men said so, or interpreted my bottoming as submission, and I actively resisted the idea because I didn't like them pressuring me. I spent years bottoming or switching without feeling that any power exchange whatsoever was taking place, and was completely taken by surprise the first time I felt submissive toward someone. He wasn't offering a relationship on terms I was interested in, but after that, I was open to dating someone and discovering whether or not we could have power exchange in either direction, or if we could be happy in an egalitarian kinky relationship.

crazyml -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 8:45:40 AM)
Beams

BentUnit -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 9:00:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Ok, fine, I'll move to London where all the feminist Doms are! You guys have healthcare anyway... [:D] So Petal, Your profile states you have a Master and you aren't looking? I'm sure your Master approves of you running him down, getting your tits out on profile And avatar and flirting and leading on other Doms. <sigh> Oh but you protest at the attention in your profile! There are words for that sort of device and Attention Whore is amongst them.

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