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KariCloud -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 9:59:31 AM)
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I went back and read what you wrote on page 7, and to me at least you've got some ideas about feminism that I and the other feminists I know won't agree with. Specifically:
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It also means to me that people don't tell me I'm pretty to make me feel better, or think I ought to use my femininity to get a job done. It means that there are masculine and feminine characteristics, but those are neither male or female exclusively, and many people are sort of androgynous about them. It means that women with short hair and no makeup aren't brushed off and that women with gorgeous makeup and shiny long hair aren't instantly objectified. It means that anything a man values himself for a woman should be able to value herself for the same, and vice versa.
Feminism isn't about what OTHER people think, prefer, brush off, objectify, want, or desire. Feminism is about freedom of choice and about groups, governments, and the world not denying women anything that men are entitled to. An individual is free to objectify a dolled-up woman in makeup and high heels and a sexy dress to their heart's content. It is of course, feminist thought that the woman being so dressed does not equal her giving up her right to choose by dressing this way. But another person objectifying a woman in their minds, or even in words isn't against feminism. Not the way I have seen feminism defined.
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I do genuinely find this in conflict with what I want. I think the responses so far have been brilliant takes on it, but where I get into trouble is when I'm in a situation with someone who expects my submission to be thoroughly feminine. Someone pointed out (I'm really sorry about the lack of names in this post - there were too many good ones) that I probably have had some bad experiences with Doms who treated me as if I genuinely was inferior, and that probably grated me the wrong way, but I have a really hard time really relishing the roles unless I feel like that element of inequality and power exchange is there. But at the same time, when a Dom is taking my submission for granted, I get this giant flare of anger, like "who does he think he is that I'll just submit to him and he deserves it??" Followed, of course, by incredible gratefulness at what he's doing to me. I just don't know how to cut out that obnoxious voice in between, and maybe it is the men I've been with.
There is a HUGE difference between a power imbalance and inequality. I am involved currently with two dominant people, a man and another woman. When they collar me, there will be a tremendous power imbalance because not only am I submitting, but I'm submitting to both of them. We are equally valuable now and will remain equally valuable when the power balance shifts. Nothing, no one, not any action on their part or mine will EVER be capable of reducing my value. They can objectify me all day, reduce me to tears and incoherent begging for nothing and I still have the same value as before. They can make me their little slut for weeks on end and I will still be just as valuable as I am now. They can act out rape scenes, force me into the most humiliating and degrading acts imaginable and still I am just as valuable.
My value does not change, ever. I am me, a powerful, smart, pretty, capable young woman with immense talants and creativity and absolutely nothing that they or anyone else can do will ever reduce my value.
Now, I might FEEL not valuable, and certainly if they did some of the above I'd go into a headspace of seeing them as gods and me as a worthless pawn or the like. But my actual value never changes.
So for me, none of the play we could engage in has any contradictions with my feminist ideals because it is all consensual between loving partners. If I played with someone who didn't care about me, and who actually saw my value lessened because of something they did, I'd never play with them again and I'd have some painful self-analysis to do to see why I played with such a person in the first place. But no matter what they thought of my value, it still didn't actually lessen. No one can make me worth anything less. No one. Not even myself. Certainly no other person.
Ok, last part of your post that I'm replying to:
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But I swear, all I want to do half the time is push guys that I desire to knock me down so I get to be in that truly delicious, peaceful place of not being in control. (and as a side note, pushing Doms is not particularly successful...)
This desire you have is normal. I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands, if not more, people who feel the same. But unless you talk to your dom in advance about what you want, and what response you crave from him, it will NEVER work. The good dominants that I've known don't want to force someone to submit, they want someone who desires to submit to them. To force someone borders on to nonconsensual acts. Good dominants don't go there unless there is negotiation beforehand that makes it clear that this is what you want.
I do engage in power struggles. I have to know that those I submit to are more dominant than me. But they don't force me to submit, my desire and need to submit to them forces me to give in. And I make it clear when this kind of situation comes up that I WANT to lose the struggle, I tell them specifically, bluntly, clearly what I am doing and what I h ope their reaction will be. Then, I leave it up to them to decide what to do with the situation.
So my question is, how much have you told your dom about what you want? Does he know that you crave him pseudo-forcing you? Has he told you how he feels about that, one way or another? If he refuses to respond in the way you want, he may not want to engage in such play with you. If he does react the way you want him to, but you've never talked to him about it, then that throws up a number of red flags in terms of his integrity and such. Not to say he's a bad person, he may just be reading your signs well and reacting accordingly. So if you haven't sat down and talked this through with him, I suggest that you do so. and ask him outright if he sees your actual intrinsic value lessened when he and you play in this way. His answer to that, in my opinion, should be a resounding NO.
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