RE: Feminism and submission

RE: Feminism and submission (Full Version)

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VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:25:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Just out of curiosity is there any choice a woman actively makes that is not considered feminist? Dangit, you've asked a question I don't have an answer to. FWIW-my understanding of feminism (or at least, the sort of feminism that doesn't make me want to hurl) is not that any choices x,y,z are intrinsically feminist-feminism is fighting for the right to be able to make choices x,y,z. In that context the question doesn't quite apply. I think. But it's late so I may be confused.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:38:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious FWIW-my understanding of feminism (or at least, the sort of feminism that doesn't make me want to hurl) is not that any choices x,y,z are intrinsically feminist-feminism is fighting for the right to be able to make choices x,y,z. Right, and isn't submission making the choice to not make choices? That's actually been the crux of one of my problems with the whole bloomin' thing. Yes, the initial choice is mine, but a lot of the following ones aren't.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:40:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Were I you....I'd be asking myself: a) why did I choose my body to attract a man b) how does this tie in with feminism? It actually gives me a fantastic screening method, because how people choose to deal with my picture when they write to me says a lot about whether or not we are going to get along. Seems you're getting somewhere near clearing up your confusion then. As a note.....seems to me you can reconcile the two pretty reasonably.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:42:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Right, and isn't submission making the choice to not make choices? That's actually been the crux of one of my problems with the whole bloomin' thing. Yes, the initial choice is mine, but a lot of the following ones aren't. Not so-unless you're physically tied down every second is a choice-you cede to his choice or you tell him to go fuck himself with a pogo stick. Nothing bad is going to happen to you if you take the second road-nobody is holding a gun to your head. The question is whether choosing to obey is going to make you happier than not obeying, no?

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:48:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Right, and isn't submission making the choice to not make choices? That's actually been the crux of one of my problems with the whole bloomin' thing. Yes, the initial choice is mine, but a lot of the following ones aren't. Not so-unless you're physically tied down every second is a choice-you cede to his choice or you tell him to go fuck himself with a pogo stick. Nothing bad is going to happen to you if you take the second road-nobody is holding a gun to your head. The question is whether choosing to obey is going to make you happier than not obeying, no? I'm going to try that "fuck yourself with a pogo stick" line sometime - it just made me awfully happy [:D] You just made a hell of a lot of sense. In fact, I know it's hard to believe, but this entire thread has really changed the way I look both at the community (you're all feminists, apparently) and myself. No one seems to think I need to change any part of myself, and that's making life look like it might be a lot simpler than my brain has made it. Thanks a lot, brain...

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:55:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I'm going to try that "fuck yourself with a pogo stick" line sometime - it just made me awfully happy [:D] I was originally going to go with 'go fuck yourself with the Domidong', but I didn't want you to think I was perverse or anything... Plus, I liked the whole 'bouncing up and down on something else that is independently bouncing up and down' vibe [:D] quote: You just made a hell of a lot of sense. In fact, I know it's hard to believe, but this entire thread has really changed the way I look both at the community (you're all feminists, apparently) and myself. No one seems to think I need to change any part of myself, and that's making life look like it might be a lot simpler than my brain has made it. Thanks a lot, brain... Glad to hear it [:)]

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 3:59:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: BentUnit I will act as devils advocate here that this so called..<ahem> female slave has claimed she is owned and yet has bad mouthed her Master on thread, displayed his property and flirted with other Dominants in plain sight in a transparent attempt to canvas for a new Dom without the decency of breaking it off with her old Dom. Not a slave, not property, fake flirting, and my damn nipple is my own nipple to display if I want to display it or not. You know why? Because I'm a damn feminist [:D] [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

sunshinemiss -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 4:00:24 PM)
I may have been joking earlier, but often my jokes have a certain amount of truth in them. As a woman with a history of horrible violence against my body, the moment I took my clothes off and posed for an artist and was not afraid to show my body to the world, I freed myself of the awful that had been done to it. It was by far one of the most powerful acts I have ever committed. There are amazing nude / semi-nude photos of me in a number of places, and I am honored by that appreciation. Even without the appreciation, making the decision that it was MY body to use as I wished - clothed or un- was also the point I became the owner of my body - not the ones who had abused it. You want to tell someone that nudity is a mark of not a feminist? Go ahead. I will sit here with my little smile and know the truth that some others deny. Best, sunshine

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 4:06:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss You want to tell someone that nudity is a mark of not a feminist? Go ahead. I will sit here with my little smile and know the truth that some others deny. Sunshine? I'm pretty sure this was a fast response, but I'd just like to check-because I didn't tell anyone that, NorthernGent did...

sunshinemiss -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 4:11:45 PM)
You are correct. Fast reply... not specifically to him, but prompted by the discussion about nudity. best (and thanks for checking), sunshine

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 4:19:22 PM)
quote: o quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: BentUnit quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Ok, fine, I'll move to London where all the feminist Doms are! You guys have healthcare anyway... [:D] So Petal, Your profile states you have a Master and you aren't looking? I'm sure your Master approves of you running him down, getting your tits out on profile And avatar and flirting and leading on other Doms. <sigh> Oh but you protest at the attention in your profile! There are words for that sort of device and Attention Whore is amongst them. Gotta ask the OP.....why are you placing your body on show for the world to see? Feminism is nothing if not the idea that a woman should not hold her body........tits/tit/barely concealed nipple to be precise in this case......as the definition of her appeal......a woman must overcome the notion that the woman exists in large part as the object of male libidinal desire (according to feminist doctrine). I would certainly agree with a central theme in your OP....you're confused. Anti sex feminism yes. I can't name names like you do but I know that there is a fairly strong current that support the right of women (and men) to display themselves as they please. Exhibitionism is not exploitation.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 4:28:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious FWIW-my understanding of feminism (or at least, the sort of feminism that doesn't make me want to hurl) is not that any choices x,y,z are intrinsically feminist-feminism is fighting for the right to be able to make choices x,y,z. Right, and isn't submission making the choice to not make choices? That's actually been the crux of one of my problems with the whole bloomin' thing. Yes, the initial choice is mine, but a lot of the following ones aren't. No, submission is an ongoing and continual choice. You don't pick a master and turn over your free will. You choose, in each and very moment, to submit to him. Part of what feminism has won for you is that choice, both to submit and to stop submitting. It takes a remarkable man to be able to inspire submission all the time. Even in a profoundly submissive woman. Most only inspire submission sometimes, and I think that is probably best for you. On the sex topic, it is not just human nature, both male and female, yo use our bodies to attract a mate. It is animal nature. Peacocks and ducks with the bright plumage on males. The mane of a lion. The bright red ass of a baboon. All of these are characteristics that exist purely and only to attract a mate. Women do it, men do it, it's biologically hardwired into us. Objectifying someone based on their sexual appeal may be counter to feminist thought, sexualizing the body as a visual lure in addition to any and everything else, certainly is not. And even contextual objectification only runs counter to some schools of feminism.

sissyshoefetish -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 4:58:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Ok. So this is an extremely important issue to me and one that I've been avoiding/struggling with/failing directly at since I discovered I was deeply submissive. I have read many, many articles and listened to many Dan Savage podcasts and I cannot figure out how to solve it. I can't believe I haven't thought to ask all of you before, but now I have so here goes: I am a feminist. What I mean by feminism isn't hugely important, except that I am the kind of feminist who is mad when men are misogynistic (outside of consensual BDSM contexts) and wants vanilla couples to go down on each other a roughly equal amount :) I have two moms who have always been my version of the ideal couple: completely equal, no gender roles, both talented at different things but sharing in most responsibilities. Feminism and powerful women have been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember. What I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house? [:)] Firstly i would say that life is full of dilemmas and often they do not resolve well; our beliefs often seem compromised by our needs. i would ask who you need this reconciliation for.. is it truly for your own understanding or perhaps because you feel you may need to justify your situation to others, not least those feminist influences on your life. if it is the latter, then maybe you as a feminist should assert your right to your own identity as a woman, and not accept it being oppressed by any dogma - even if that dogma ironically is feminism. A similar situation exists over voting rights. Many people do not vote in democratic countries. Some say that the vote was hard won and those who do not vote are betraying that cause and even risking it. But those people are simply demanding that this very freedom should be constrained and that we must vote for whatever limited choices society gives us. Some freedom! We have the right to vote.. and with that comes the choice to not use it. And with you.. your principles say women should have rights and be free from oppression.......... in which case your own principles support your right to your sexual identity. Those who fail to understand that are missing the whole point of freedom.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 6:00:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Gotta ask the OP.....why are you placing your body on show for the world to see? Feminism is nothing if not the idea that a woman should not hold her body........tits/tit/barely concealed nipple to be precise in this case......as the definition of her appeal......a woman must overcome the notion that the woman exists in large part as the object of male libidinal desire (according to feminist doctrine). I would certainly agree with a central theme in your OP....you're confused. It has been there all along, but you only choose to ask about it now that someone else brings it up? All of a sudden you have something to say about. Way to show you are able to think for yourself there NG. You really need to learn to understand what feminism means TODAY, not 50 years ago based on the writings of women who are now all dead.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 6:08:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Just out of curiosity is there any choice a woman actively makes that is not considered feminist? Dangit, you've asked a question I don't have an answer to. FWIW-my understanding of feminism (or at least, the sort of feminism that doesn't make me want to hurl) is not that any choices x,y,z are intrinsically feminist-feminism is fighting for the right to be able to make choices x,y,z. In that context the question doesn't quite apply. I think. But it's late so I may be confused. That makes sense...but I wonder what the criteria for "the right to be able to make choices" is. Is the legal right to make a choice different from the right to make a choice without being negatively judged and ostracized? And if so, then what should people judge you for, if not the choices you actively make?

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 6:12:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Just out of curiosity is there any choice a woman actively makes that is not considered feminist? Dangit, you've asked a question I don't have an answer to. FWIW-my understanding of feminism (or at least, the sort of feminism that doesn't make me want to hurl) is not that any choices x,y,z are intrinsically feminist-feminism is fighting for the right to be able to make choices x,y,z. In that context the question doesn't quite apply. I think. But it's late so I may be confused. That makes sense...but I wonder what the criteria for "the right to be able to make choices" is. Is the legal right to make a choice different from the right to make a choice without being negatively judged and ostracized? And if so, then what should people judge you for, if not the choices you actively make? How about the results of your choices?

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 6:18:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh How about the results of your choices? Well the thing is, even if the results are optimal in your eyes, someone else still might think you're being (insert insulting judgement here) for doing it.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 6:29:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh How about the results of your choices? Well the thing is, even if the results are optimal in your eyes, someone else still might think you're being (insert insulting judgement here) for doing it. Sometimes that is justified. If my neighbor chooses to be very kinky, and loud about it. I am going to have a problem with it. Not because being kinky is wrong, but because loud sex when my daughter can hear it is not ok with me. My brother in law's ex wife chose abusive relationships. He was the only one that wasn't physically abusive and I believe he was emotionally abusive. I have nothing against wanting a man who beats you, but she's been pretty clear that she doesn't, but she still chooses those sorts of men. I certainly do judge her for that. That someone espouses feminist ideology and lets her man tell her what to do, yeah honestly that is none of my business unless it impacts me.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 6:34:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Just out of curiosity is there any choice a woman actively makes that is not considered feminist? Dangit, you've asked a question I don't have an answer to. FWIW-my understanding of feminism (or at least, the sort of feminism that doesn't make me want to hurl) is not that any choices x,y,z are intrinsically feminist-feminism is fighting for the right to be able to make choices x,y,z. In that context the question doesn't quite apply. I think. But it's late so I may be confused. That makes sense...but I wonder what the criteria for "the right to be able to make choices" is. Is the legal right to make a choice different from the right to make a choice without being negatively judged and ostracized? And if so, then what should people judge you for, if not the choices you actively make? First, I would have to say that any choice a woman actively makes on her own would have to be considered feminist. I'm glad you didn't ask that about men, because I've already taken my pain meds and that would require way too much intense thought, lol. The "criteria" for the right to make choices, in most of the Western World, is defined pretty much by law. The law has determined when you (general you) is considered an adult. For medical purposes, that age is lower, varying by the medical issue at hand. Yes the legal right to make a choice is different from the right to make a choice without being negatively judged and ostracized. To pick something relevant, but hopefully easiest to understand, look at abortion. The law gives you the right to choose to have an abortion. But the law also provides others the freedom to take offense to your choice. And pro-life people do judge you by that choice without even knowing the circumstances. And if so, then what should people judge you for, if not the choices you actively make? In a perfect world, people would not judge others for making decisions/choices they make. Ideally, we would allow people to make whatever choices they wanted as long as those decisions were within the law and not causing harm to others or themselves. Why the last part? Because we certainly shouldn't allow people to make the choice to kill someone, rob a bank, etc., and there are some things that people will do that seriously injure themselves, like becoming a heroine addict, that we should try to help them not do.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/5/2010 6:39:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nineveh My brother in law's ex wife chose abusive relationships. He was the only one that wasn't physically abusive and I believe he was emotionally abusive. I have nothing against wanting a man who beats you, but she's been pretty clear that she doesn't, but she still chooses those sorts of men. I certainly do judge her for that. You do realize that your ex sister in law will continue to make those bad choices until she gets help? Women don't "choose" abusive relationships, there is typically something in their history that is unresolved, abuse as a child, having had a father who abused the mother are two of the simplest examples. Kind of like why it is so common for the children of alcoholics to become alcoholics, a child who is abused grows up to abuse their children, etc. It is a psychological issue, and not entirely the person's fault. It's one of the reasons it is so important for a parent to set a good example for our children. They learn not simply what we actively teach them, but also what they see us doing.

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