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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 10:21:07 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline 		No jujubeeMB, you actually had nothing to do with this thread, sorry to disappoint but I am glad that you posted because you made some very good points.

First, I see that Limits are Limits, and I have fond so many people don't really understand them. They call things limits that aren't. The reasons they place things as limits have little to do with the act itself and rather with baggage they carry around from a previous actity.

Sure Mental Stress is a Valid thing to want to limit, so I can see if a girl was Anally Raped by her Father and the thought of having anal sex causes flash back and violent reactions and hours in the corner rocking back and forth trying to cut themselves. This is probably something you don't touch unless you are a professional. But this is not what I get when I talk limits with women.

Most of the time I get, I don't think I will enjoy it so I won't do it. Then they show you so many different signs that they most likely would certainly enjoy it, the Limit actyually becomes Limiting to them.

I am a Limit Pusher. I admit it. I think with someone I own, that when it comes to certain things if they are limiting themselves over something that holds little actual damage then I feel a drive to help them experience it.

Yes in a way it is a Kink. One that in all the time I have been at this has NEVER backfired. I have helped quite a few women experience things from Anal, to Needles, to Fire, to Cutting, to Suspension, to Anal Hooks, to First Bisexual Experience, to First Gang Bang, to First Filmed and Photographed experience.

I enjoy sharing those firsts with people, even if it isn't the first time they did it, it is usually the first time they enjoyed it. I Admit I get off on that.

I push but I regard what the fear is, I try to find that out long before I attempt, but I can tell you without a doubt that many limits, perhaps not those listed in this thread, and perhaps not limits of the women listed in this thread, are set due to something that is hindering the person, not keeping them safe.

I echo MANY of the things already said in this thread about certain things that are sad that they have to be listed as limits.... but I'm also not daft when it comes to the world we live in.... They have to be said, because there are people who live in Fantasy of WHAT IF and those people can rarely maintain the divide between Fantasy and Reality.

QSM

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 10:53:43 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		i can see why a Dom would be frustrated by a sub who lists limits that aren't really limits. That would be very annoying. i might even say "stupid", because once they say something is a limit, and then go back on it, they've given the Dom a clear signal that they don't mean what they say. And that could cause serious problems.

For my part, i'm just as frustrated by Doms who try to "push" my limits. To me, it's like They're trying to renegotiate a contract that They've already signed. To me, it shows a lack of respect and self discipline, like a child who keeps asking for a piece of candy, when he's been told "no". My limits are clearly spelled out from the start. If the Dom can't accept them, They should move on at that point, instead of waiting a month and then trying to reneg. i find that sort of thing to be a gross violation of trust and i would probably break up with Someone if i had to warn them more than once or twice about not renegotiating hard limits. i pick my limits very carefully. They are not "pushable".

pam

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 10:58:56 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		I'm with gungadin on this one.

My limits are listed as limits precisely because they will cause me physical or mental harm if they are approached or attempted. There are many things I'm pretty sure I won't enjoy, but they aren't on my list of limits either.

I need a man who will respect my intelligence, and my self-knowledge. If he ignores my list (and I'll explain to him why each one is a no-no to me right from the start) and he ignores me and tries to push those limits, then he's not worth my submission or my time.

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 11:04:31 AM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		I pushed my own limits with someone. He is the only guy I was able to do that with because he was not afraid to go there. It is very exhilarating.....

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 11:11:57 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

For my part, i'm just as frustrated by Doms who try to "push" my limits. To me, it's like They're trying to renegotiate a contract that They've already signed. To me, it shows a lack of respect and self discipline, like a child who keeps asking for a piece of candy, when he's been told "no". My limits are clearly spelled out from the start. If the Dom can't accept them, They should move on at that point, instead of waiting a month and then trying to reneg. i find that sort of thing to be a gross violation of trust and i would probably break up with Someone if i had to warn them more than once or twice about not renegotiating hard limits. i pick my limits very carefully. They are not "pushable".

pam


And I agree with you on this gungadin09, I would not accept a limit and then try to push it. I would tell you before the collar every went on your neck what you could expect. Through our discussion I would tell you which of your Limits I agreed with and which of them I would want to discuss further, Many of your limits might be mine also, But I think at one point you said that Condoms for Vaginal Sex were a Limit of yours (It was in a different thread maybe you didn't say it, if not pretend that you did). IF you were wanting to be involved in this house, I would feel the need to push this Limit for a few reasons. I have a Mild Latex Alergy meaning that I get a Very bad Itch/Rash when I wear Latex Condoms and I have a Full Alergy to the coating used on Non latex condoms that keep the condom from breaking down with friction the coating causes Blisters and Burning. I would be willing to use Latex Condoms if necessary, but at some point I would look toward fluid bonding, I would want to stop causing myself pain, If there were rasons for the condoms such as Pregancy, or Disease I would rather go through a different process... IUD, Sponges, Birth Control, Patch, I mean I would be willing to show you I respected your wishes but in a long term situation me wearing condoms is just unacceptable for me.

Now if we liked each other and wanted to take the relatioship further.... I would match your Limits to mine, I would Accept the Limits you have that aren't things that I want and then I would want to seriously want to discuss the things I do want that you call limits, I would explain my take of them, as well as how I go about doing them, I would not ask you to address them Tomorrow, but slowly and down the road as we go along with the idea that we do so safely and with the understanding that it is to better our relationship, and depending on the activity that has been limited show you just how strong you can be by faceing the things that scare you..

Now I have not listed what I want and what I don't want, I have just stated that if there was something that you did not want to do and I did, that it would be discussed, If we could not reach an agreement then the collar would not be given, there would be no union, I would never agree to a Limit to push at it later. That is Dickish.

QSM

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 11:28:49 AM   
myotherself


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From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		wow Red - that involves a lot of trust between you. Total kudos


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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 11:51:33 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

I am a Limit Pusher. I admit it. I think with someone I own, that when it comes to certain things if they are limiting themselves over something that holds little actual damage then I feel a drive to help them experience it.



How do you know what will cause damage? There are things that we've discovered have to be hard limited because they caused an intensely negative reaction that caused me to distrust him. No past trauma to warn us. Just accidentally hitting an emotional trigger.

My problem is that you're telling her what is or isn't damaging to her. And that's not your call. The fact that it doesn't cause flashbacks doesn't mean it isn't still damaging.


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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:11:00 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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Joined: 11/15/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

I am a Limit Pusher. I admit it. I think with someone I own, that when it comes to certain things if they are limiting themselves over something that holds little actual damage then I feel a drive to help them experience it.



How do you know what will cause damage? There are things that we've discovered have to be hard limited because they caused an intensely negative reaction that caused me to distrust him. No past trauma to warn us. Just accidentally hitting an emotional trigger.

My problem is that you're telling her what is or isn't damaging to her. And that's not your call. The fact that it doesn't cause flashbacks doesn't mean it isn't still damaging.



If you would please read the whole of the post as well as the other one I posted.

As I said it will be discussed before there is a collar, and if she put the collar on then It becomes my call because she agreed to let it be my call.

I do not play with Limits without it being understood that I will do so.

And if a Limit restricts my ability to have the control that I desire then no collar will be given.

I will only work a limit with a girl who has surrendered herself to me.

and she will only do so, or be allowed to do so, with the understanding of what I will push and what I agree is off the table.

QSM


ETA: to answer how I know what will cause damage... I don't, no one really does. But I am willing to go down that road. I am willing to go to that dark place and open curtains, I am willing to hold a crying girl and show her that I am not the one who hurt her, or show her she is not alone.

I believe that anything we live in the shadow of is a restriction of our growth.

Before I am judged it shoud be understood I have never said the kinds of things I push on, but they are things that I determine at the time they are stated and they are discussed then not a year down the road.



< Message edited by AQuietSimpleMan -- 7/11/2010 12:14:05 PM >

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:14:02 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		That's all i could ask for. Discussing upfront which limits would be respected and which the Dom might want to push. Coming to an agreement about that BEFORE the relationship or scene begins, instead of suddenly trying to backpedal after it starts. i think that's fair enough. As You see, i list several things as limits, and then proceed to say that i'm open to negotiation on those limits on a case by case basis; or that there are certain circumstances (such as an emergency or if i have heard the details and specifically agreed to a thing in advance) where i would make an exception. i would call those things soft limits. i'm not saying that a prospective Dom can't negotiate limits before the relationship or scene starts. What i'm saying is that once the limits have been agreed to (and this should happen before anybody starts to play), that there's no going back. Of course, anything which i've specifically said is negotiable or decided on a case by case basis, can continue to be decided on a case by case basis. But hard limits are inviolable.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 7/11/2010 12:34:48 PM >

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:15:27 PM   
HisEvelyn


Posts: 252
Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline 		AQSM - I share your mild allergy of latex. Ugh, it makes things annoying and painful sometimes, doesn't it??? That's why for me, usually I insist on knowing someone is tested clean, and I'm on birth control pills. Condoms aren't a long-term solution unless I woke up one morning with a strange fetish for constant vaginal itchiness and irritation. And that's yet to happen. Go figure. :)

As for limits? I speak from the perspective of a slave who was VERY new and misinformed about the entire lifestyle when she entered it. To the point where negative stereotyping and hollywood's demonizing had made me terrified of ever submitting to a man, even though everything about my personality screamed that such was exactly what I wanted to do.

So when I first got to know my Master, I had 'hard limits' up the yin-yang. I was so scared of certain things, because I had NO idea what they were about, and in a vanilla sense, many of them seemed horrible (having a man beat your ass until it is red and bruised seemed horrific to me when I didn't have the experience to understand the psychological aspect of it). And my Master let me have my 'hard limits', knowing full well that as I learned about things, I would begin to adjust, without any 'pushing' on his part.

And it was very true. He never pushed me, he never tried to make me do anything I had said I wasn't willing to do. He did make it clear the things he was interested in doing, but told me it was completely ok if we never did them. And as we grew closer and more trust was established, I discovered that i was going to HIM to ask if we could try things that had been limits for me before. He'll be using a crop on me during our next visit, which I am ridiculously excited about. And I asked HIM to do so, because now I want to experiemnt and try all sorts of stuff. He had told me before such an activity was something he enjoyed, but he never pushed it on me. If he had, I think it would still be a limit.

These days, almost 9 months later, I have a much better idea of how the whole concept of 'limits' works. And better how to categorize mine. There are some things that i will NEVER be ok with doing, no matter how exuberant I get (children, animals, needles, scat, urine, bloodplay, poly, anything that will get me arrested). And these limits, like others have said, are there mostly because they would cause serious harm to me, emotionally or mentally. Or involve risks I am not willing to take, such as getting arrested (I like having a clean record, thanks).

I no longer call things I don't know about, hard limits. They become soft limits now, in the manner of "I'll try them if my Master wants it, and the situation/mindset is right".

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:31:18 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		In my opinion, there ought to be written contracts between Doms and subs regarding limits. This contract should specifically note what is a hard limit, and what is a soft limit. It is the responsibility of the Dom and the sub to be very clear about that from the start, so there are no misunderstandings. If, within the course of a relationship, a sub's hard limits change, then they should write a new contract. i am perfectly serious about that. i think it's extraordinarily dangerous for a sub to say "Well, it was a hard limit, but then i learned to trust my Dom, and now it's not." If that is the case, then the term "hard limit" has no meaning. Hard limits are called that for a reason- because they are inviolable. It is irresponsible for a sub not to stick to their limits, and irresponsible for a Dom to treat them as optional, once they have been agreed to. This "redefining them as we go along" has got to stop. Please put it in writing, and then stick to it.

pam

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:40:46 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

In my opinion, there ought to be written contracts between Doms and subs regarding limits. This contract should specifically note what is a hard limit, and what is a soft limit. It is the responsibility of the Dom and the sub to be very clear about that from the start, so there are no misunderstandings. If, within the course of a relationship, a sub's hard limits change, then they should write a new contract. i am perfectly serious about that. i think it's extraordinarily dangerous for a sub to say "Well, it was a hard limit, but then i learned to trust my Dom, and now it's not." If that is the case, then the term "hard limit" has no meaning. Hard limits are called that for a reason- because they are inviolable. It is irresponsible for a sub not to stick to their limits, and irresponsible for a Dom to treat them as optional, once they have been agreed to. This "redefining them as we go along" has got to stop. Please put it in writing, and then stick to it.

pam


I'm sorry pam I really disagree on this.. contracts are paper and not legally binding in the first place....

Two adults need to be Two adults and TALK things out.... If someone cannot respect a set boundary then maybe you are not with the right person.

I have left women who claimned they could live with my type of Poly and then wanted me to change my views on PolyFidelity.

If we are not compatible then it is time to move on.

If someone chooses me as a Master I hope it is because they trust the direction I want the relationship to go in, they accept that I will challange some of their limits, and that I will try my hardest to help them on their path to being the best them they can be.

If not.... then why would they accept my collar or agree to be my submissive in the first place?

QSM

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"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:43:23 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Does collaring a sub mean that they surrender their right to have limits? That is not my understanding of the term. You Doms, i don't envy You. Each individual seems to have their own definitions of these terms. Sometimes i feel like we're all in the Tower of Babel; that no one really understands what anyone else is saying. It would make me very nervous to have so much responsibility over someone who might have a completely different definition of the term "limit" than i do.


Having said that, You are welcome to engage for TPE, in which case, they are surrendering their limits. Just make sure they understand that.
pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 7/11/2010 12:46:32 PM >

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:43:27 PM   
HisEvelyn


Posts: 252
Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline 		I definitely understand and agree with your assessment, gungadin.

In my story, I was simply expressing that I didn't really understand the concept of hard and soft limits when I first joined this lifestyle. Now that I have more experience? I fully agree that there needs to be an established line. Though I ALSO think that as time goes on, a contract like the one you speak about wouldn't be terribly necessary for some pairings. In those relationships, the Dominant already knows his submissive well enough to know what would hurt her in a bad way, and so wouldn't do those things anyway. I don't feel a contract is necessary for my relationship, for example.

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:43:29 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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From: The Great Frozen North
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quote:

<snip>Through our discussion I would tell you which of your Limits I agreed with and which of them I would want to discuss further,<snip>


Just wanted to comment on this little bit of your post QSM. It's not for you or any D-type to agree or disagree with a sub/slave's limits they are hers like it or not. You may accept or not accept but agree is not your peroggative. I don't know, maybe it was just a poor choice of words but if a D-type were to tell me he agrees/disagrees with one of my limits it would cause a !!!! moment for me.

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:48:54 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

In my opinion, there ought to be written contracts between Doms and subs regarding limits. This contract should specifically note what is a hard limit, and what is a soft limit. It is the responsibility of the Dom and the sub to be very clear about that from the start, so there are no misunderstandings. If, within the course of a relationship, a sub's hard limits change, then they should write a new contract. i am perfectly serious about that. i think it's extraordinarily dangerous for a sub to say "Well, it was a hard limit, but then i learned to trust my Dom, and now it's not." If that is the case, then the term "hard limit" has no meaning. Hard limits are called that for a reason- because they are inviolable. It is irresponsible for a sub not to stick to their limits, and irresponsible for a Dom to treat them as optional, once they have been agreed to. This "redefining them as we go along" has got to stop. Please put it in writing, and then stick to it.

pam


Contracts are worthless. I mean if it makes you both feel better, have at it. Legally, they are zilch. Do people think otherwise? Actually do people spend a lot of time in conversations about limits? I don't really even know what mine are or care, I figure that when something comes up that I don't dig, I'll take it from there. Even then, I doubt I'd protest, I am a big believer in trying everything at least once. .





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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:55:13 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

<snip>Through our discussion I would tell you which of your Limits I agreed with and which of them I would want to discuss further,<snip>


Just wanted to comment on this little bit of your post QSM. It's not for you or any D-type to agree or disagree with a sub/slave's limits they are hers like it or not. You may accept or not accept but agree is not your peroggative. I don't know, maybe it was just a poor choice of words but if a D-type were to tell me he agrees/disagrees with one of my limits it would cause a !!!! moment for me.


OH YES IT IS.... I have as much as right to REFUSE someone for whatever reason as any submissive does. If her Limits do not suit my desires I do NOT have to accept them, just as she does not have to accept me being her Dominant.

If I do not agree with one of their limits then it needs to be discussed further to see if we can meet on an agreement. If we cannot meet on an agreement then it is just not going to happen.

I choose not to take comeplete responsibility over someone when my desires will be limited. I desire to be with a woman who enjoys her sexuality and the hedonism that comes with it. If I am restricted to heavily then I will not be happy, I will resent what I am not getting for what I am giving in return. It is not always about the submissive, I dislike how often it is portrayed that the Dominant having a desire is secondary to the desires of the submissive it is silly to me.

A submissive does not have to budge on their limits, but I do not have to accept them with the limits that they have, but before I deny them as my submissive you can be damn sure that we will be discussing each and every one.

As for the Agree or Disagree. I Agree that Fucking an Animal, eating Shit, and Diddling a child are totally acceptable Limits. I also Agree that certain Trauma can cause limits that may or may not have anything to do with the limit and that I am not quite qualified to deal with certain trauma, I may suggest that they see a Therapist, or get some form of Treatment for such things but in order to get to that point... a discussion on what IS and ISN'T agreed upon should always be had.

QSM

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 12:59:17 PM   
txurinal


Posts: 209
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Status: offline 		The only hard limits i can think of are no underage kids and no permanent marks or damage. With someone that i know and trust, i do not think anything else would be off limits

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 1:00:45 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
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From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

<snip>Through our discussion I would tell you which of your Limits I agreed with and which of them I would want to discuss further,<snip>


Just wanted to comment on this little bit of your post QSM. It's not for you or any D-type to agree or disagree with a sub/slave's limits they are hers like it or not. You may accept or not accept but agree is not your peroggative. I don't know, maybe it was just a poor choice of words but if a D-type were to tell me he agrees/disagrees with one of my limits it would cause a !!!! moment for me.


OH YES IT IS.... I have as much as right to REFUSE someone for whatever reason as any submissive does. If her Limits do not suit my desires I do NOT have to accept them, just as she does not have to accept me being her Dominant.

If I do not agree with one of their limits then it needs to be discussed further to see if we can meet on an agreement. If we cannot meet on an agreement then it is just not going to happen.

I choose not to take comeplete responsibility over someone when my desires will be limited. I desire to be with a woman who enjoys her sexuality and the hedonism that comes with it. If I am restricted to heavily then I will not be happy, I will resent what I am not getting for what I am giving in return. It is not always about the submissive, I dislike how often it is portrayed that the Dominant having a desire is secondary to the desires of the submissive it is silly to me.

A submissive does not have to budge on their limits, but I do not have to accept them with the limits that they have, but before I deny them as my submissive you can be damn sure that we will be discussing each and every one.

As for the Agree or Disagree. I Agree that Fucking an Animal, eating Shit, and Diddling a child are totally acceptable Limits. I also Agree that certain Trauma can cause limits that may or may not have anything to do with the limit and that I am not quite qualified to deal with certain trauma, I may suggest that they see a Therapist, or get some form of Treatment for such things but in order to get to that point... a discussion on what IS and ISN'T agreed upon should always be had.

QSM


Okay, I see where you are coming from. To me that is accepting/not accepting that the sub/slave has something as a limit so we are actually in agreement here. When I think of agreeing with a limit it has to do with whether or not it's okay for her to have the limit(s) PERIOD.

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RE: How "Pushable" are your Limits. - 7/11/2010 1:04:24 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Does collaring a sub mean that they surrender their right to have limits? That is not my understanding of the term. You Doms, i don't envy You. Each individual seems to have their own definitions of these terms. Sometimes i feel like we're all in the Tower of Babel; that no one really understands what anyone else is saying. It would make me very nervous to have so much responsibility over someone who might have a completely different definition of the term "limit" than i do.


Having said that, You are welcome to engage for TPE, in which case, they are surrendering their limits. Just make sure they understand that.
pam



No one surrenders their rights to have Limits with me. Period. Even things they said were fine if one day they are not fine they get discussed. For example if you like cutting today but at come point it stops being something you enjoy, in fact if it starts to scare you or make you feel you have been harmed we can discuss it and take it off the table. The fact of the matter is for me is when that collar goes around your neck it is because we have an understanding of how things are going to be between you and I.

Sometimes I come across as this scary nasty son of a bitch... I'm really not, I like to laugh and have fun and joke around and discuss the value of being prepared for a Zombie invasion. I like to cuddle and make joke, and I like to have kinky sex. It is really a basic every day life I look for, I have had LOTS of people come to be with Limits because they were hurt by someone who did it and didn't take responsibility for that action.... I am NOT that man, because of that I want to discuss that limit, Are you Punishing me for his action, or are you afraid all men will do this to you, or are you just scared of how bad something can go. Well I feel things like that should be addressed.

If you are my slave, in my collar, you know you will be heard when you talk and you know you will be respected, you also know that you will asked to step outside of your comfort and experience new things, or some old things in a new way and then be asked to challange your own views and ask if you still feel the same way.

I have a Hard Limit of Haunted Houses, I react Violently to them, some people got hurt once. I Stay away from them ... Every couple of years I will get to know a group and ask for a Off Hour Tour where I am the only one who goes through and explain to them why.

In 20 years I have never found a Haunted House that I enjoyed going thorugh ... But I still check it every few years or so. Because I am not willing to just say Nope, not for me.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

(in reply to gungadin09)
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