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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 8:20:41 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan


In Blind Obedience, a submissive will be asked to do all sorts of shit... almost Military like. It's a break down build up kind of training however most of the time I never see the build up..



That is because part of the military purpose is to break down the "Me" part and build into a team. 

It is hard to get that build up if you do not have a team. 

Then there is the Milgram Experiment that they could be referring to.  Look for white coats and button pushing.

Also. . . many times people are looking at The Third Reich when discussing the social implications. 

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 8:34:50 PM   
ShoreBound149


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149

quote:

ORIGINAL: wetnrdy69

What is meant by Blind Obedience Training? 


When Stevie Wonder has Andrea Bocelli doing boot blacking.

Stomp


HEY that was my foot you stomped on!

Keep your fucking foot off my bar stool!

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Oscar Gamble

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 8:38:44 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

Keep your fucking foot off my bar stool!


Make me! *whoops and dives behind the bar

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 8:45:32 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wetnrdy69

What is meant by Blind Obedience Training? 


~arf

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 8:50:59 PM   
jujubeeMB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
And I simply pointed out my views on it.

Which is what the op asked about right?

This is my view.

So I owuld be providing the "Con" on this discussion... and you have presented a "Pro".


..... er, nice recap?

On a slightly side note, did I like trample your hydrangeas in another life? I can't say a single thing to you in the spirit of amicable debate without you getting super defensive, but you have no reason to be upset with me. You see, the thing about public discussions is that they continue... you don't just state your opinion and then no one responds to it.

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 9:19:38 PM   
wpf0027


Posts: 35
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline 		Sometimes I expect blind obedience from my girl.  Since we have been together for years and love each other very much I would never do it in a way just meant to break her down.  It is what it is and sometimes I just do not have the time or energy to answer a thousand and one questions. Maybe the answer to the questions is "Because I said so". There are other times when clarification is in order or when the lesson is very specific and I want her to understand why.  I guess it depends on the people involved and the situation.

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 9:22:55 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		it always seems silly to say IMO.. in my opinion anything that springs from the keyboard of the poster IS their opinion unless they are quoting someone. 
That said.. I view blind obedience as assinine.  Anytime someone proposes a senario where you do something without thought, whether or not you trust someone is stupid.  What the fuck is wrong with thinking, reasoning, and responding to something because it is right, and not because you are doing it out of the habit to follow orders. 
I would have made a crappy soldier in times of war, and I make a lousy sheep.
Blind obedience of someone you trust, still requires thought.  If your partner suddenly flipped out and told you to do something harmful, it would still be you taking the flack. 

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 9:36:22 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

I work with obedience, but I feel that if someone is confused as to WHY they are doing something the wrong lesson is learned


AQuietSimpleMan,

That isn't a flaw of obedience. I view it as a communication issue. Either the dominant elected not to disclose the reasoning behind the task or the submissive failed to ask for clarification or articulate the mental disconnection she was having. In my world the latter two are required elements of transparency.

quote:

Blind Obedience means the lessons they learn are what their head tells them the lesson is in my opinion and that isn't for me.


I can't agree because I definitely don't require an armload of instructions and reasons behind a directive. My internal wiring is simple. It hinges upon a deep seeded need to surrender by digesting his will and making it my own. That means when I need realignment I submit myself to his hand. Even if he's not aware of what's going on in my head I am and it's my duty to keep his property in good repair. I can't allow it to malfunction by letting thoughts run amok in my mind that he could easily dispel.

However, in defense of what you've said I'm also on a different end of the spectrum. My desire is calibration to him. And I recognize the methodologies used will differ. I merely attempt to flow with them. But I still view it as a matter of trust and being with someone that always has my best interests at heart. When that has been established explanations can become a thing of the past or at the very least the submissive can willingly accept those moments when they're not forthcoming.

I want to kneel and be enslaved. And that means moving away from comfortable situations and accepting the risk and uncertainty that comes along with doing such. In my mind slavery is about stepping out, not clinging to the familiar. It isn't about blind obedience in my mind, but giving way to the person you've placed in the position of authority and allowing him to do his job in the manner he deems fitting. After all, that's why I chose him.

~porcelaine


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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 10:13:25 PM   
jujubeeMB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
Blind obedience of someone you trust, still requires thought.  If your partner suddenly flipped out and told you to do something harmful, it would still be you taking the flack. 


Well the thing is, it only takes one damaging mistake on the part of the Dom to ruin that level of trust forever. So you're absolutely right - you can't do it with someone who might flip out. I would never trust someone that much unless I trusted them that much

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 10:54:17 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
And I simply pointed out my views on it.

Which is what the op asked about right?

This is my view.

So I owuld be providing the "Con" on this discussion... and you have presented a "Pro".


..... er, nice recap?

On a slightly side note, did I like trample your hydrangeas in another life? I can't say a single thing to you in the spirit of amicable debate without you getting super defensive, but you have no reason to be upset with me. You see, the thing about public discussions is that they continue... you don't just state your opinion and then no one responds to it.


juju I'm sorry, apparently neither of us is capable of speaking to the other. You seem to read something that is not there in my opinion in what I say, before I thought you had taken many pot shots at me, I have decided that maybe I read into them... Here I simply made a statement, that it is obvious we disagree I feel no need to hash it out with you.

I tried to drop it...... why try and antagonize? I responded to you as I feel it is courteous to address someone who is speaking to you… I read what you had to say as you attempting to engage with me on how I felt. I choose not to do that.

QSM


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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 11:00:19 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		~arf arf!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 11:04:11 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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Status: offline 		porcelaine....

given everything you said above how is that Blind Obedience?

It woud seem you have a very clear and understandable reason to do everything you do and you seem to have an understanding of your partner before you surrender to them.

To me this is not Blind.

You talk of communication and transparency these are things that go against the idea of Blind Obedience.

I would rather have a situation where my submissive know why I am doing what I am doing. I don’t want someone who does not think.

I want everything they do for me to be something they thought about and decided they wanted to do because they chose to surrender that to me. If they do it without thought or understanding … I see this as a Robot, and I have no interest.

QSM


_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 11:10:31 PM   
jujubeeMB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
I read what you had to say as you attempting to engage with me on how I felt. I choose not to do that.


Point taken. I won't attempt to engage in conversation with you anymore.

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 11:16:32 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
I read what you had to say as you attempting to engage with me on how I felt. I choose not to do that.


Point taken. I won't attempt to engage in conversation with you anymore.


Fair enough if you like.... I was refering to this thread.... but do as you like.

I wonder though... if both of us are sitting behind out screens and reading the words the other is saying and going "Where the hell are they getting THAT?"

I can tell you for certain that I am... Perhaps we would get along better if we could talk in person.... everything you say is very educated and very exact... I feel that is a positive thing, I usually get along with people who are like that... I like discussing things, I like indepth discussions... But when I read your replies I keep asking myself.... "When and Where exactly did I say I ever felt that way", or equally, "why are you asking me that way, I can't respond because what you have said is not accurate about how I feel."

Anyway... if you feel that you don't want to engage me in conversation anymore I'll understand.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Obedience Training - 7/12/2010 11:32:35 PM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

given everything you said above how is that Blind Obedience?


AQuietSimpleMan,

I have never encountered a leader that explained every directive he's designated for those under his charge. As a matter of fact I would say most that have any significant experience in a work environment have encountered this at some point. Why is it so difficult to surmise that the same can exist in tandem with transparency? He's not a mind reader.

quote:

It would seem you have a very clear and understandable reason to do everything you do and you seem to have an understanding of your partner before you surrender to them.


I come into my dynamics with a deep knowledge of self. I know how I tick from top to bottom, what will bother me, and the things I'll disregard without a second thought. Since I've had extensive leadership experience I know what responsible leadership looks like. I'm not about to place myself within bumbling hands. If I need to continually be reassured that he's capable of doing his job something is amiss. While I make an ardent attempt to become well acquainted with my partner the unexpected is part of the journey. I don't fear that. I welcome it.

quote:

You talk of communication and transparency these are things that go against the idea of Blind Obedience.


We use a lot of terminology in BDSM that I don't necessarily jive with. I specifically stated that I compared the notion of such to surrender. Transparency is a hallmark of my relationships because he wants all of me. Not merely the aspects I'm comfortable revealing. This aligns with my belief about openness and the necessity of candid communication.

quote:

I would rather have a situation where my submissive know why I am doing what I am doing. I don’t want someone who does not think.


I don't need to know the machinations behind every move he makes and most certainly don't offer the same when I lead or mentor. Nor do I think an omission of such suggests the submissive has impaired thinking. I'm a slave. I'm smart enough to choose a master that's capable of doing just that. Mastering me, building a framework, and charting a course for our dynamic. He's my personal CEO.

quote:

I want everything they do for me to be something they thought about and decided they wanted to do because they chose to surrender that to me. If they do it without thought or understanding … I see this as a Robot, and I have no interest.


It has been my experience that one of the problems many girls encounter on the kneel is over-thinking. Their mind is constantly churning and they're unable to move beyond that place and simply be and respond to him without a million steps in between. I don't have that problem. My slavery is predicated on ebb and flow. That's how we operate. I know when I'm moving in tandem and when I'm operating against that current. To insist that he explain every nuance of his operation is unrealistic and information overkill. I have made a commitment and that entails servitude and surrender. My obedience is ratified but the choice to surrender is made at the onset. Rather than spend my energy thinking I elect to find new aspects of self that I can hand over instead.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/13/2010 12:01:11 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings all....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Him: Do this.
Me: Ok


While I am quoting Aileen this reply is really to everyone. Despite her later disclaimer, she nailed the definition perfectly. Command. Obedience. End of story.

Now....how you get there is what training is all about. Why someone should or should not blindly obey any order given by someone is yet another question that people touch on. In any D/s, M/s, O/p situation there are many commands that can and will be given that are in effect blindly obeyed. They are not question, they are not clarified, they are simple immediately obeyed every time. You can call that blind obedience. The specifics of which commands are obeyed that way vary by the people involved. There is nothing inherently wrong or dangerous with doing this with the situation above.

Very few people will ever get to the point where they will robotically obey any command given to them without any sort of mental filters checking for danger. We talk a lot about the trust someone has to have in someone else to give up that level of control. If that trust is there or if enough external control is there, someone can be brought to or at least close to that level of obedience. We do want obedience like that in some situations. Someone brought up the military. They do train for obedience to commands that must be obeyed without hesitation or question because if they hesitate they may get themselves or someone else killed in a dangerous or combat situation. We want that blind obedience in those situations. We may also want them in certain situations for those who submit to us. Well....at least if not true blind obedience, unquestioning and immediate obedience. If I tell my slave I want my coffee refilled I don't want to have to explain my reasons for why. I just want my coffee.

Those who follow the paths of submission and surrender get this. Those who follow the paths of pain get it part of the time. Those who follow the paths of kinky sex don't usually get it. Your orientation and goals determine how much sense doing this make to you and how well you respond to both having it done with you and with others.

Be well.....

Malkinius

_____________________________

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http://www.HouseMalkinius.com    The goal is community.

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RE: Obedience Training - 7/13/2010 12:29:56 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline 		porcelaine,

It would seem that you and I agree on the Method.... Just not the Terminology.

I think what you have said makes perfect sense.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Obedience Training - 7/13/2010 12:44:20 AM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wetnrdy69

What is meant by Blind Obedience Training? 


BOT? I choose not to resist.

Honestly, I don't believe in the training of blind obedience. For me, it's something which evolved over the course of many years in a stable relationship to the point of where as soon as he issues a command, my body is already up and performing even *if* my brain is going .. wait, what? It may very well be a form of brainwashing since it does seem to be quite automatic but I contend that he was only able to brainwash me to that point because he, himself, exhibited the qualities of leadership and self-determination which appealed to me on a consistant basis so that I don't balk.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Obedience Training - 7/14/2010 7:07:14 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I view blind obedience as assinine.  Anytime someone proposes a senario where you do something without thought, whether or not you trust someone is stupid.  What the fuck is wrong with thinking, reasoning, and responding to something because it is right, and not because you are doing it out of the habit to follow orders. 
I would have made a crappy soldier in times of war, and I make a lousy sheep.
Blind obedience of someone you trust, still requires thought.  If your partner suddenly flipped out and told you to do something harmful, it would still be you taking the flack. 



I'm having a deja vu experience reading your post so I think I'll respond to it. (It's probably just due to the fact that a lot of similar topics come up in these forums.) But in my deja vu I already said, sometime before now:

Stupid things can be profound if they're done by smart people...and vice-versa, of course. Take "I'm having a deja vu experience, reading your..." and compare it to "Through all he said, even through his appalling sentimentality, I was reminded of something--an elusive rhythm, a fragment of lost words, that I had heard somewhere a long time ago. For a moment a phrase tried to take shape in my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man's, as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air. But they made no sound, and what I had almost remembered was uncommunicable forever."

For me, all the essential thinking and reasoning occur long before I become someone's slave. After that's it's up to the dominant how much of my head I use or am even allowed to keep. Dominants vary a lot in that regard.

There's nothing wrong with thinking, reasoning, and responding to something because it is right, but there's also nothing wrong with deciding he is right, no matter what, and then, if he desires it, becoming an instrument. Instruments still think, sometimes even deeply, they just refuse the free exercise of their wills as an expression of their thoughts (which is itself an exercise of will, but it's going in the right direction, I think, toward diminution). Also, blind obedience, once you get used to it, is by far the easiest type of obedience there is. "Easy" should not always be the highest value in selecting something, but when it comes to an endeavor as difficult as a submissive's obedience, anything that makes it easier seems like a bit of baraka, mitzvah, grace, even. Finally, for those of us who eroticize trust and dependence, blindness can be thrilling or provide a jolt of joy.

"If your partner suddenly flipped out and told you to do something harmful, it would still be you taking the flack."

*Blink.* Of course. And, hopefully, you have thought carefully about that possibility and how you will feel about it, before you commit to blindly obeying. It's one of the more obvious scenarios to imagine, after all. If it deters you, wonderful, you've probably made a very wise decision. If it doesn't, who's to say what sort of decision it was, given all you know about yourself vs. the unknown void outside observers know of the subject?

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(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Obedience Training - 7/15/2010 9:05:01 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Stupid things can be profound if they're done by smart people...and vice-versa, of course. Take "I'm having a deja vu experience, reading your..." and compare it to "Through all he said, even through his appalling sentimentality, I was reminded of something--an elusive rhythm, a fragment of lost words, that I had heard somewhere a long time ago. For a moment a phrase tried to take shape in my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man's, as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air. But they made no sound, and what I had almost remembered was uncommunicable forever."


CaringandReal,

I enjoy reading your posts mainly for the breadth and content but also your understanding of a subject matter that leaves many befuddled. Simply put, you get it. Now for a Type-A girl like myself the opening sentence is golden. I've had countless discussions with other persons deriding ideas they believed were idiotic because it didn't align with their rationale. However, I'm results oriented. And that means that the process of getting there isn't always the focus, what I care about most is execution and where we finish. The nonsensical that yields benefit to yours truly isn't quickly dismissed if there's value to be found. But of course one must be willing to think about of narrow lines to see other possibilities.

quote:

For me, all the essential thinking and reasoning occur long before I become someone's slave. After that's it's up to the dominant how much of my head I use or am even allowed to keep. Dominants vary a lot in that regard.


Indeed they vary and the ones I find most engaging are those that have no intention of allowing me to hold court in my head. That soil is his and he plans to claim every inch.

quote:

There's nothing wrong with thinking, reasoning, and responding to something because it is right, but there's also nothing wrong with deciding he is right, no matter what, and then, if he desires it, becoming an instrument. Instruments still think, sometimes even deeply, they just refuse the free exercise of their wills as an expression of their thoughts (which is itself an exercise of will, but it's going in the right direction, I think, toward diminution). Also, blind obedience, once you get used to it, is by far the easiest type of obedience there is. "Easy" should not always be the highest value in selecting something, but when it comes to an endeavor as difficult as a submissive's obedience, anything that makes it easier seems like a bit of baraka, mitzvah, grace, even. Finally, for those of us who eroticize trust and dependence, blindness can be thrilling or provide a jolt of joy.


Reading this portion over a steaming cuppa is bittersweet. One of the wonderful aspects of recognizing that within yourself is the cessation of struggling against your desire (and in some cases need) to interact in that manner. 'Right' has so many manifestations and at every turn you're confronting it until you reach a point where the conclusion is where you began, but now the truth has been etched into your person and other options no longer exist. Not because you cannot fathom them - as you note the instrument doesn't cease to utilize their mental faculties - but that is the extent of the exercise. He is the maestro and the melody she emits is by his hand.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 40
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