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RE: Obedience Training - 7/15/2010 11:06:07 AM

Zevar

Posts: 801
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wetnrdy69

What is meant by Blind Obedience Training?

Greetings wetnrdy69:

The ability to overpower another in an unquestionable way seems to be what is considered blind obedience. IMO it is foolish to actually believe that an adult is even capable of such acts of blind obedience. When considering the concept of obedience it is evident that there is a level of internal consent that must occur prior to expressing any form of obedience.

In essence there is no reality to blind obedience as to express obedience one has to have arrived at an internal decision of consent to obey. Thus on some level have decided to obey whatever guidance, rule, command or directive that are relayed from one to the other to obey.

Obedience is not capable of being offered in a robotic manner. Every action that one does, be it obedience or not, has been internally dialogued and processed, either consciously or subconsciously. Thus there is nothing blind about any act of obedience even if it is perceived as such. The innate presence of humanity within all of us excludes blind obedience from occurring.

Any level of blind obedience or rather illusionary submission, which is usually the outcome of any act of suppositional blind obedience, has been internally decided upon else there would be the absence of any human effort that might have been set forth to prove that there has been an act of blind obedience.

From another perspective I am of the thought that inspired obedience is rare indeed. Obedience which is inspired in the heart and produces the essence of beauty in every act of obedience is most often unseen without looking fully into the depth of obedience while mastery is at the helm relentlessly leading each step of the way.

In closing it is evident that some do believe that unquestionable servitude through perceived acts of blind obedience indeed does exist. However, I think not nor would I support such imprudent notions. Of course, to each their own!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 7/15/2010 11:09:17 AM >

(in reply to wetnrdy69)

Post #: 41

RE: Obedience Training - 7/15/2010 12:11:52 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Of course one of the problems with demanding blind obedience is that is what you get. What you don't get is someone saying "you've made a mistake, that's not dishwashing liquid, it's dish liquid". You make that mistake and demand the wrong product gets used, you get to deal with the flooded kitchen.

So a dominant who wants blind obedience had better never make a mistake, never forget to dot the i's and cross the t's. Or misuse a comma. Because there's a hell of a difference between "eats shoots and leaves" and "eats, shoots and leaves". You order the wrong one, you will have to deal with the fallout.

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Post #: 42

RE: Obedience Training - 7/15/2010 12:40:34 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Of course one of the problems with demanding blind obedience is that is what you get. What you don't get is someone saying "you've made a mistake, that's not dishwashing liquid, it's dish liquid". You make that mistake and demand the wrong product gets used, you get to deal with the flooded kitchen.

DesFIP,

We're neglecting to mention that the interpretation of what constitutes good or real leadership encompasses a wide margin. My definition of leadership as applied to power exchanges does not include individuals without verifiable experience leading outside of that context. I'm not a guinea pig and many of the questions that come up regarding responsibility, respect, and accountability could be examined in a different context for insight on how he may approach the relationship. To this I will add that blind leadership doesn't suggest she's a quasi bobblehead that never asks questions. Leaders want input and most keep abreast of the pulse emitted from those under their tutelage.

quote:

So a dominant who wants blind obedience had better never make a mistake, never forget to dot the i's and cross the t's. Or misuse a comma. Because there's a hell of a difference between "eats shoots and leaves" and "eats, shoots and leaves". You order the wrong one, you will have to deal with the fallout.

In my opinion that's the crux of all of this. Dominance is not a byproduct of leadership. I don't believe the two go hand in hand. Many assume the helm that are ill prepared for the role they grabbed hold of. But in terms of how I see leadership, yes, the individual is capable of admitting their mistakes and often have corrective measures in place to offset them. He chooses a complement that renders him better where he's weak. But if he never sees himself as such, I wouldn't expect him to acknowledge other shortcomings and areas where he's ignorant either. The ego is at the wheel versus a man that knows himself who takes his responsibilities and guidance of the one he's taken in hand to heart. The two are worlds apart.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 43

RE: Obedience Training - 7/15/2010 5:07:31 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

DesFIP,

We're neglecting to mention that the interpretation of what constitutes good or real leadership encompasses a wide margin. My definition of leadership as applied to power exchanges does not include individuals without verifiable experience leading outside of that context.

Verifiable experience does not mean perfection. And that's my point. Unless the dominant is perfect which I have yet to see in any person I have ever known there will be mistakes made.

quote:

To this I will add that blind leadership doesn't suggest she's a quasi bobblehead that never asks questions. Leaders want input and most keep abreast of the pulse emitted from those under their tutelage.

To me blind obedience means just that. Not asking questions. Not giving input. Just obeying blindly. So unless he thinks to ask for input he will get just what he asks for without question. Unless his orders are to not obey blindly but to question and point things out. Now you could argue that if so, then by questioning you are obeying blindly but that's stretching semantics a bit far.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 44

RE: Obedience Training - 7/15/2010 5:26:22 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Verifiable experience does not mean perfection. And that's my point. Unless the dominant is perfect which I have yet to see in any person I have ever known there will be mistakes made.

I think we're both intelligent enough not to fall for that. And anyone remotely sensible and adept in leadership recognizes his flaws. I expect mistakes and hope that when they happen he's capable of moving the relationship beyond them.

quote:

To me blind obedience means just that. Not asking questions. Not giving input. Just obeying blindly. So unless he thinks to ask for input he will get just what he asks for without question. Unless his orders are to not obey blindly but to question and point things out. Now you could argue that if so, then by questioning you are obeying blindly but that's stretching semantics a bit far.

I equate that to enslavement. One of the goals being my alignment with him where my responses are automatic in nature. But that doesn't happen without communication. Also, this is really contextual. There are areas where it could apply because I'm adept and aware of his preferences in that capacity and others where greater input is necessary. I don't believe this is something that happens overnight. In fact, in the best situations you're dealing with two parties that know one another quite well and move rhythmically as one. But that doesn't negate the small steps you take to reach that point.

I get what you're saying. This reminds me of a comment I made earlier about sticking this stuff under a microscope and recognizing how ridiculous it sounds when doing so.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 45

RE: Obedience Training - 7/15/2010 8:44:47 PM

yellowroses

Posts: 167
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

In Blind Obedience, a submissive will be asked to do all sorts of shit... almost Milirtary like. It's a break down build up kind of training however most of the time I never see the build up..

Blind Obedience is that they are never to ask why they are being asked to do something when told they just do it.
QSM

Sorry OP I don't have an answer. I don't think you want one anyway since you asked the quesiton 3 days ago and you haven't been back it seems.

I had a little chuckle at what AQuietsimpleMan said "almost Military like..............they are never to ask why they are being asked to do something when told they just do it"

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)

Post #: 46

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 9:28:13 AM

WiseCracknSadist

Posts: 163
Joined: 10/27/2006
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Wouldn't blind obedience be slave training? Slaves do as they're told and if they do not there is punishment thus they are trained to do as they are instructed.

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 47

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 9:39:45 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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WCS, not all power dynamics use punishment. In fact, the more common it is, the poorer the relationship is. In fact I will go as far as to state that the more frequently the dominant chooses to punish, the lower quality of a dominant he/she is. Good dominants don't need to punish. They choose things that work instead. Like positive reinforcement, teaching, giving a learning curve, having an open communication where the sub feels safe saying he/she is having difficulties. Or do you work better for a boss who curses at you when you make any error no matter what size compared to one who allows you to ask for advice when you're having difficulty completing a task, one who praises you for a hard job well done, one who awards you with bonuses/takes you out to lunch, etc?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to WiseCracknSadist)

Post #: 48

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 9:57:26 AM

WiseCracknSadist

Posts: 163
Joined: 10/27/2006
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Good Dom, bad Dom is opinion some sub/slaves like positive feed back some need negative. So perhaps you need to widen your scope. I think if you let your sub/slave dictate you then the roles are actually reversed. But I'm old school and kinda intense I'm not everyone's cup of tea.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 49

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 10:12:25 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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My dear young man, I am over twice your age and a great deal more knowledgeable in human psychology. No healthy human being wants to be marginalized, humiliated and slapped down 24/7. In scene is one thing, but to inspire someone to serve you is a totally different matter.

If every time she tries a new dish and it doesn't come out perfectly (which it won't as this is a skill like any other requiring practice) you tell her what a bad cook she is and how useless she is in the kitchen and how much money she wasted, she will not become a great cook. Instead she will make you the three dishes she already knows how to make and will not try anything else.

Constant abuse teaches people not to stick their neck out, not to engage with you because that is unsafe, not to give you any information that you can use against her. There are emotional sadists and masochists, but good ones are rare and know what is safe and what is not safe to play with. Bad ones are abusive. So which do you aspire to be?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to WiseCracknSadist)

Post #: 50

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 10:17:53 AM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

WCS, not all power dynamics use punishment. In fact, the more common it is, the poorer the relationship is. In fact I will go as far as to state that the more frequently the dominant chooses to punish, the lower quality of a dominant he/she is. Good dominants don't need to punish. They choose things that work instead. Like positive reinforcement, teaching, giving a learning curve, having an open communication where the sub feels safe saying he/she is having difficulties. Or do you work better for a boss who curses at you when you make any error no matter what size compared to one who allows you to ask for advice when you're having difficulty completing a task, one who praises you for a hard job well done, one who awards you with bonuses/takes you out to lunch, etc?

I think you summed up my thoughts quite well.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 51

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 10:21:36 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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Joined: 8/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist

... But I'm old school and kinda intense I'm not everyone's cup of tea.

It is so cute when a 20 year old declares they are old school.

I can't help but wonder if that means Secondary...of if they are really hardcore, and go all the way back to Primary.

(in reply to WiseCracknSadist)

Post #: 52

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 10:41:05 AM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

.......... Take "I'm having a deja vu experience, reading your..." and compare it to "Through all he said, even through his appalling sentimentality, I was reminded of something--an elusive rhythm, a fragment of lost words, that I had heard somewhere a long time ago. For a moment a phrase tried to take shape in my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man's, as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air. But they made no sound, and what I had almost remembered was uncommunicable forever."......................

Can you tell me where this quote came from? It is beautiful!

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 7/16/2010 10:42:22 AM >

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Post #: 53

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 10:44:51 AM

WiseCracknSadist

Posts: 163
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline

Awe I hurt your pride so you're trying to dress me down. Old doesn't mean you're any smarter my dear friend. More experienced? Yes. But, smart, experienced, old people can have tunnel vision and not be able to see the whole picture. I won't hijack this thread because its not about me. You can make it about you if you need that kind of attention.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 54

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 10:50:32 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist

Awe I hurt your pride so you're trying to dress me down. Old doesn't mean you're any smarter my dear friend. More experienced? Yes. But, smart, experienced, old people can have tunnel vision and not be able to see the whole picture. I won't hijack this thread because its not about me. You can make it about you if you need that kind of attention.

You really are cute up there, being all indignant and stuff...

(in reply to WiseCracknSadist)

Post #: 55

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 1:57:25 PM

wetnrdy69

Posts: 2
Joined: 2/3/2010
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well thanks for all the answers I seem to understand it more clearly now

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 56

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 3:19:15 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

.......... Take "I'm having a deja vu experience, reading your..." and compare it to "Through all he said, even through his appalling sentimentality, I was reminded of something--an elusive rhythm, a fragment of lost words, that I had heard somewhere a long time ago. For a moment a phrase tried to take shape in my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man's, as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air. But they made no sound, and what I had almost remembered was uncommunicable forever."......................

Can you tell me where this quote came from? It is beautiful!

Fitzgerald, The Great Gatsby.
Ain't google wonderful?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to hlen5)

Post #: 57

RE: Obedience Training - 7/16/2010 3:26:24 PM

Malkinius

Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
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Greetings....

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist

Awe I hurt your pride so you're trying to dress me down. Old doesn't mean you're any smarter my dear friend. More experienced? Yes. But, smart, experienced, old people can have tunnel vision and not be able to see the whole picture. I won't hijack this thread because its not about me. You can make it about you if you need that kind of attention.

Don't confuse age with eduction and experience. You pretty obviously don't have any of the three. As you say at the top of your profile, you don't understand submission. Some of us do. Some people here have been doing this longer than you have been alive tho I will grant that most have not. I have not.

Tell you what, when you can explain the psychology, sociology, physiology and biology of submission or enslavement and explain how various techniques from positive to negative reinforcement plus educational techniques apply, then you can consider yourself an expert. Instant experts who have little to no experience are usually jumped on before they can harm others with their misinformation.

When you have the reputation to back your words, you might win this one. Until then, read, study, learn, practice carefully and post intelligently and maturely (in most threads) and you will gain rep. Do as you are doing and you will just keep losing it. A bad rep is hard to live down in places like this and remember that many more people read than write and that includes people you might like to have as a sub.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

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(in reply to WiseCracknSadist)

Post #: 58

RE: Obedience Training - 7/17/2010 12:04:45 PM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
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Porcelaine, we're on the same page again.

If someone I'm serving gives an order, I don't expect to be told why first, or even for him to necessarily have a reason because "I feel like it" or "I want you to." Dominants aren't perfect, and I don't expect them to never make mistakes, or follow them because they are making better decisions than I am. I serve because I feel driven to connect with him in that way, because it makes me feel upset and guilty to struggle against his will or defy him in any way, because my will is harnessed to his.

I enjoy learning more about how his mind works, both because it can often help me serve him even better, and I come to know him better. I ask him that afterward, when we're in the car or otherwise in a quiet moment not busy with something and can be contemplative. When an order has been given, that just isn't the appropriate time or place to ask "Why?" I would feel unsubmissive if every time I got an order, I felt the need to consciously analyse his reasons and decide whether or not to obey.

If I had information he needed, I would tell him, but wouldn't have a problem with following his original directive if he decided to continue. If it was something that was a huge struggle for me, I would hopefully have let him know ahead of time, so he could take that into account. If I wasn't aware there was an issue until then, I would let him know, but would still try my best to comply, or ask him if there was an intermediate step that I could use to get there first.

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 59

RE: Obedience Training - 7/17/2010 3:01:41 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Porcelaine, we're on the same page again. If someone I'm serving gives an order, I don't expect to be told why first, or even for him to necessarily have a reason because "I feel like it" or "I want you to." Dominants aren't perfect, and I don't expect them to never make mistakes, or follow them because they are making better decisions than I am. I serve because I feel driven to connect with him in that way, because it makes me feel upset and guilty to struggle against his will or defy him in any way, because my will is harnessed to his.

This is why I don't find affinity with the micromanaging sort. I don't require that. I'm very simple. Tell me what you want and I'll make it happen. I don't need the details and I don't get bogged down in the why or the mechanics of what's been asked either. I'm very results oriented and my response will be the best method of execution that gives him what he seeks. If he doesn't have a specific process in mind I'll create one.

In terms of service, to accurately assess his ability to build and lead I need a concrete understanding of what that means. Otherwise I'm apt to be hoodwinked by propaganda that bears little sustenance. I follow him because he demonstrates sound and effective leadership worth subjugation and emulation. Both must be present or I'm out of there. The struggle really subsides when you have no definitive reason to question his suitability and qualification for the role. However, that doesn't mean he always makes good decisions or takes the route I'd have opted for in his place. But it does mean I expect him to err and have the commonsense to acknowledge that and right the ship so to speak. On the other hand I won't sit idly by while we go racing into a glacier. I'm a risk taker not a fool.

This implies that he's okay with having his slave share her opinions and is willing to accept that tap on the shoulder that brings questions and concerns to his attention without taking offense or feeling threatened by my acuity. That's one of the reasons he selects me. So I'm really doing my job in that regard. Much like you I'm attracted to his mind and I learn everything I can about him and the mental processes he makes when drawing conclusions, making decisions, and administering correction. I can't align myself with a stranger. And I can't ingest a will I have no capacity to understand or haven't taken the time to explore thoroughly. For me it isn't lip speak and adopting his way above my own is an involved process but one I handle internally. If I have trouble reconciling something I will address it with him. Sometimes I have to go back to the drawing board on a few instances before it sits well with me.

I think why is often a guise for I don't agree with you in all truth. It's easier to ask questions than to say I have no compulsion to do what you've asked instead. The consequences for expressing the latter are probably less than ideal. But I'll admit to saying no when asked if I agreed about something on many occasions. Transparency isn't telling him what he wants to hear, but being brutally honest to someone that has the guts to sit and listen without coming unglued when his preferred answer isn't uttered. I look for men that can handle the truth.

Although I don't always agree with the directives in terms of soundness or necessity, and will readily admit I have moments when I know a better course of action would be ideal, I still do as he requests. Part of my ability to do so is understanding my own dominant nature and how there's a method to my madness that others may fail to grasp that's crystal clear to me. In short, I don't see things from his perspective and attempt to move myself in that direction to allow that process to unfold. But that doesn't occur because of some kink ideology, guilt, or belief that he has all the answers and is the embodiment of perfection. I move with him because he continues to demonstrate why he's the appropriate person for the job and his mastery brings us to a better place individually and in the relationship as a whole.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 60

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